A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

[Michie]

Does there have to be a 1:1 correlation? Like, fasting for gluttons or not speaking for gossips?

It applies to everything. Everything considered breaking a commandment. I do not understand how you cannot see that. There are two great commandments that encompass everything. How can we parse it out? Matthew 22:36-40


The Two Great Commandments
Lesson 15 from the Baltimore Cathechism

« prev : next »

188. Besides believing what God has revealed, what else must we do to be saved?
Besides believing what God has revealed, we must keep His law.

If you love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)

189. Which are the two great commandments that contain the whole law of God?
The two great commandments that contain the whole law of God are:

1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
2. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

And one of them, a doctor of the Law, putting him to the test, asked him, "Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?" Jesus said to him, "'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.' This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:35-40)

190. What must we do to love God, our neighbor, and ourselves?
To love God, our neighbor, and ourselves we must keep the commandments of God and of the Church, and perform the spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

My dear children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue, but in deed and in truth. (I John 3:18)

191. Which are the chief corporal works of mercy?
The chief corporal works of mercy are seven:

1. To feed the hungry.
2. To give drink to the thirsty.
3. To clothe the naked.
4. To visit the imprisoned.
5. To shelter the homeless.
6. To visit the sick.
7. To bury the dead.

192. Which are the chief spiritual works of mercy?
The chief spiritual works of mercy are seven:

1. To admonish the sinner.
2. To instruct the ignorant.
3. To counsel the doubtful.
4. To comfort the sorrowful.
5. To bear wrongs patiently.
6. To forgive all injuries.
7. To pray for the living and the dead.

193. Is everyone obliged to perform the works of mercy?
Everyone is obliged to perform the works of mercy, according to his own ability and the need of his neighbor.

For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; naked, and you covered me; sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me. (Matthew 25:35-36)

194. Are all the ordinary deeds done every day to relieve the corporal or spiritual needs of others true works of mercy?
All the ordinary deeds done every day to relieve the corporal or spiritual needs of others are true works of mercy, if done in the name of Christ.

For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in my name, because you are Christ's, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. (Mark 9:40)

195. Which are the commandments of God?
The commandments of God are these ten:

1. I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have strange gods before Me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember thou keep holy the Lord's day.
4. Honor thy father and thy mother.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

196. Should we be satisfied merely to keep the commandments God?
We should not be satisfied merely to keep the commandments of God, but should always be ready to do good deeds, even when they are not commanded.

If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. (Matthew 19:21)

197. What does Our Savior especially recommend that is not strictly commanded by the law of God?
Our Savior especially recommends the observance of the Evangelical Counsels – voluntary poverty, perpetual chastity, and perfect obedience.

You therefore are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

The Two Great Commandments

 

[chevyontheriver]

Lutherans (the ones I know) believe that Christ recapitulating Adam's and Israel's life, but they seem to understand this in context of penal substitution. So, in effect, for them, Christ lived a holy life in order to 'impute' that holiness to us.

I'm going to recommend you read Anselm's 'Cur Deus Homo'. It's short. Try to read it without a lot of later theology in mind.

Then find 'Christus Victor'. It's also short.

See if you can find Thomas Aquinas on the atonement. I haven't actually found that bit yet, the plain Thomas unfiltered by people on all sides claiming to be for him or against him.

The obedience of Christ was a sweet smelling aroma to the Father. The Eternal Son of the Father, as the New Adam, loved eternally by the Father, was our representative in reconciliation. We were never hated by the Father. Jesus was never hated by the Father. A theory of atonement has to encompass that. It also has to comprehend that Jesus saying 'My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?' is NOT anything more than calling up the WHOLE Psalm 22, with it's very positive ending. It is the end of that Psalm that has significance for atonement theory and not the first line.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If I love you and am unchanging and you do something terrible to me, say lie to me, I recognize that you lied to me, but I am not going to require my child to tell the true and then credit his truthfulness you. There's no point in that. The only point I can see, is if you somehow needed that bc you felt so guilty about your lying. I don't need it. I forgive you because that's who I am and I want to make you into a person that doesn't lie bc, again that's who I am and I want a relationship with you. I don't have some sense of justice that needs to be satisfied. If I had told you prior to lying to me, 'Do not lie', it's because I want you to know that I myself am trustworthy. My rule is a reflection of who I am. I am not bound by my rule. My rule is not above me. So even if you break it, it's not like you murdered the whole cosmos. You don't have that power.

But you are not God. You are not "all in all". When I lie to you, I is not against you that I sin (though it is, but not by comparison), but God!

This existence, and existence itself, and "the omni", is not about you or me, but about God. When the act of one of his creatures is to claim him irrelevant or a liar (because that is what disobeying him is), it is every bit the cosmic treason it is said to be. I think of it as a rift in the space-time continuum, that would undo all fact, but for the power and forebearance of the God who controls all things, including time and existence.

It is a question of justice. That's why God said honor your father and mother.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying we need not be grateful nor that it is no sin to be ungrateful. What I am saying is that the debt of gratitude we owe is not the same kind of debt that is the result of sin. We will always owe him gratitude, even those of us who sin debt has been canceled.

Christ recapitulated our life even unto death. When Adam and Eve sinned, the punishment was death. Christ died and went to Sheol to get them. The Devil held us bondage by the fear of death (it's why we sin). But Christ entered the strong man's house, bound him and plundered his house of all his captives.

Huh? It might be useful if you can show me all this from the Scriptures. And, no, don't just quote verses about him preaching to the souls in sheol, or about the strongman being bound in his house.

The way I understand Anselm is that Christ became man because man needed to make reparation and only God can do it.

Not that Anselm is my go-to guy, but he is correct as far as I understand what you have taken him to say, (though, out of context). Only God can do it, or, man must die. Some will die that infinite death for their infinite crime against the infinite Creator; others' death is substituted by the death of Christ. God's loving mercy is not just in saving us from sin, and making us his dwelling place, but in saving us from the wages of sin.

So there are some for whom Christ made reparation and some who will pay their own debt of death.

Christ considered sin?

"God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us."

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

But you are not God. You are not "all in all". When I lie to you, I is not against you that I sin (though it is, but not by comparison), but God!

I'm wondering if that verse is not being mistranslated or misinterpreted. It doesn't seem to make much sense. When Cain killed Able, it was Able's blood which cried out from the ground.

This existence, and existence itself, and "the omni", is not about you or me, but about God. When the act of one of his creatures is to claim him irrelevant or a liar (because that is what disobeying him is), it is every bit the cosmic treason it is said to be. I think of it as a rift in the space-time continuum, that would undo all fact, but for the power and forebearance of the God who controls all things, including time and existence.

That just seems like it's giving the human will capabilities it doesn't have. Even Satan with all his fury cannot shift a single atom. We rage, yes, but we rage alone and in the dark. Remember how in the Great Divorce, CS Lewis compared hell to a speck on a butterfly's wing? Hell (as absence of being) is less than nothing compared to being. It's powerless. It's difficult to even talk about bc it's such a void, such a nothing. David said of the Lord, 'If I make bed in hell, behold you are there'. So in a very real sense, hell doesn't exist. The Lord is there, preserving whatever existence it may have. For all I know, he may be hell itself to those who are there.

Huh? It might be useful if you can show me all this from the Scriptures. And, no, don't just quote verses about him preaching to the souls in sheol, or about the strongman being bound in his house.

Those are the verses I have. Why don't they count?

Not that Anselm is my go-to guy, but he is correct as far as I understand what you have taken him to say, (though, out of context). Only God can do it, or, man must die. Some will die that infinite death for their infinite crime against the infinite Creator; others' death is substituted by the death of Christ. God's loving mercy is not just in saving us from sin, and making us his dwelling place, but in saving us from the wages of sin.

So there are some for whom Christ made reparation and some who will pay their own debt of death.

"God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us."

Ok.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm wondering if that verse is not being mistranslated or misinterpreted. It doesn't seem to make much sense. When Cain killed Able, it was Able's blood which cried out from the ground.

But why did Able's blood cry out from the ground? Did Able care at that point? It is God who judges, and the injustice against Able was bad enough. But it was GOD who was wronged, and God who will see to it that payment is made in full, whether by Caine, or by Christ.

That just seems like it's giving the human will capabilities it doesn't have. Even Satan with all his fury cannot shift a single atom. We rage, yes, but we rage alone and in the dark. Remember how in the Great Divorce, CS Lewis compared hell to a speck on a butterfly's wing? Hell (as absence of being) is less than nothing compared to being. It's powerless. It's difficult to even talk about bc it's such a void, such a nothing. David said of the Lord, 'If I make bed in hell, behold you are there'. So in a very real sense, hell doesn't exist. The Lord is there, preserving whatever existence it may have. For all I know, he may be hell itself to those who are there.

Maybe you can show me the quote, in context. If I'm thinking right, it wasn't Lewis himself making that comparison, but one of the residents. Nevertheless, the notion that the Lake of Fire is simple emptiness is false, misleading at best. You won't find that in Scripture. I think it is true that sin is not in and of itself a thing, but rather a privation of good.

Who said Satan can't shift an atom? True he cannot, but for God's allowing it, nor can we rebel but for him allowing it. But ask Job if Satan can't shift an atom.

No doubt it is hard to understand how a mere creature can rebel against the creator. But it does not attest to the strength of will of the creature that it is able to do so. It speaks to the corruption of the creature.

Those are the verses I have. Why don't they count?

They don't say what you take them to apply to. They only say what they say. You are building a doctrine lacking foundation.

Ok.

 

[eleos1954]

As Protestants, we criticize Roman Catholic beliefs such a prayer to Mary and the Saints, and Purgatory, also their view of Justification.

Our contention is that Christ has made satisfaction for our sins, once for all, completely. Asking God therefore, to be propitious toward us because of the merits and prayers of the saints, especially Mary is unfounded. Also, we cannot nor we need not think that by our own merits, we can alleviate temporal punishment or increase in virtue.

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

While Christ Alone is more comforting, I struggle with the very baseline that Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianism and many others seem to suppose.

Help.

Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

Many protestants are carrying left over "baggage" (false teachings/beliefs) stemming from the Catholic church.

As time goes on .... knowledge will increase.

 

[rturner76]

The idea that God the Father needed to punish the eternal Son of the Father is NOT a Catholic idea. The whole 'punishment' thing with respect to the redeeming work of Jesus is alien. It may be an offshoot of Anselmian theology, but I'm doubting it is simple Anselmianism. Jesus saved us by a sweet smelling oblation, an act of obedience, something pleasing to the Father. And our coming around, our putting on Christ, is also an act of obedience.

That's the way I learned it. That Christ didn't go to the cross to take on our punishment but he showed a divine level of obedience even though he knew the punishment that was on the way, he still obeyed and that's the lesson is to obey God and lay down your life for your friends. SO not so much about satisfying punishment and satisfying obedience.

That's what Christ commands, that we obey so how can we be saved and not obey is what I ask people who are "faith alone."

 

[Albion]

That's what Christ commands, that we obey so how can we be saved and not obey is what I ask people who are "faith alone."

If it was possible for us to perfectly obey the law and do it without fail throughout the whole of our lives, Christ would not have had to die, it's true, and we could not be saved by "Faith Alone" as we are.

These Bible verses help put the matter into perspective:
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Rom. 8:3, “For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son….”

 

[rturner76]

If it was possible for us to perfectly obey the law and do it without fail throughout the whole of our lives, Christ would not have had to die, it's true, and we could not be saved by "Faith Alone" as we are.

These Bible verses help put the matter into perspective:
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Rom. 8:3, “For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son….”

It's not an either/or to me. We are saved by our faith, the evidence is our works. We don't need to complete x amount of good deeds to cancel out our bad deeds. We repent, which is the process of changing our sinful behavior, will be forgiven. That's where ur grace kicks in. We don't have to be perfect but I believe we have to make an effort to change our old ways.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

That's the way I learned it. That Christ didn't go to the cross to take on our punishment but he showed a divine level of obedience even though he knew the punishment that was on the way, he still obeyed and that's the lesson is to obey God and lay down your life for your friends. SO not so much about satisfying punishment and satisfying obedience.

That's what Christ commands, that we obey so how can we be saved and not obey is what I ask people who are "faith alone."

He commands that we obey the Mosaic Law or something else?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Do you believe that Christ forgives us apart from our repentance or only on condition of our repentance?

It's not an either/or to me. We are saved by our faith, the evidence is our works. We don't need to complete x amount of good deeds to cancel out our bad deeds. We repent, which is the process of changing our sinful behavior, will be forgiven. That's where ur grace kicks in. We don't have to be perfect but I believe we have to make an effort to change our old ways.

 

[rturner76]

He commands that we obey the Mosaic Law or something else?

From my understanding under the first commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[rturner76]

Do you believe that Christ forgives us apart from our repentance or only on condition of our repentance?

We are forgiven when we enter the church, then we repent of the sin that we still hang on to.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

We are forgiven when we enter the church, then we repent of the sin that we still hang on to.

I was hoping that we were forgiven regardless of what we do. Didn't Jesus forgive those who crucified him?

 

[eleos1954]

I was hoping that we were forgiven regardless of what we do. Didn't Jesus forgive those who crucified him?

once one accepts Jesus into their heart (and this does not have to be through a "church" system) He begins His work in the believer .... sanctification .... being conformed to His image (overcoming sin) .... this continues throughout our earthly lives. We will mess up here and there but He will finish His work in you.

1 John 1:9 ESV / 12 helpful votes
If we confess our sins (to Jesus), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Philippians1:6

New Living Translation
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Those who crucified Him .... if they did not know what they were doing yes .... if they did know then no ..... so likely yes and no to that question .... we are not privy to that information.

1 Peter 2:21
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

Follow the lamb.

 

[rturner76]

I was hoping that we were forgiven regardless of what we do. Didn't Jesus forgive those who crucified him?

Yes, "Lord forgive them for they know not what they do." There is no manual that says, if you sin this much you must do x, y, z. Christ could very well forgive someone without them having repented. Christ reads the heart of a person.

That's why works by themselves aren't enough. You must have a conversion. Openly sinning without repenting are not the actions of someone whose heart has been converted by the Holy Spirit. The main thing I know for sure about judgment and salvation is that it's up to God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, "Lord forgive them for they know not what they do." There is no manual that says, if you sin this much you must do x, y, z. Christ could very well forgive someone without them having repented. Christ reads the heart of a person.

That's why works by themselves aren't enough. You must have a conversion. Openly sinning without repenting are not the actions of someone whose heart has been converted by the Holy Spirit. The main thing I know for sure about judgment and salvation is that it's up to God.

One of the problems is how people define "conversion". For many professing Christians, conversion happens when one is baptized. Thus, a baby is converted if properly baptized. The problem with that theology is that the all-too-frequent result are folks who openly sin without the least interest in repentance.

 

[rturner76]

One of the problems is how people define "conversion". For many professing Christians, conversion happens when one is baptized. Thus, a baby is converted if properly baptized. The problem with that theology is that the all-too-frequent result are folks who openly sin without the least interest in repentance.

I think that's why some churches have confirmation around 8th grade. So if they were baptized as a baby, they have another chance to have a personal conversion after studying the religion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think that's why some churches have confirmation around 8th grade. So if they were baptized as a baby, they have another chance to have a personal conversion after studying the religion.

I think that is quite true, although many churches that do this do not consider it in the same light we would. For them, it is a matter of "confirming" the baptismal conversion.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I was hoping that we were forgiven regardless of what we do. Didn't Jesus forgive those who crucified him?

No, only the one who repented; He did however forgive those who condemned and executed him.