A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

[Michie]

I have tried but human language being what it is....I mean how am I suppose to differentiate human emotions from God's, or humans casting us off and God? Except that God is perfect. Ok, I am unperfect. God is just to behave the way he does. Ok, but I am unjust and a sinner. It doesn't help.

When people are abusive, etc., that is not God. As long as you seek to follow Him, He is there with open arms. We are the creation. He is the Creator. I think the creation rejects the Creator. God does not reject His creation. We make the choices.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If Penal Substitution isn't Catholic, how do the sacrifices we make repair the world? For example the children at Fatima would tie robes around their waists and refuse to eat in order to save sinners from hell.

Penal substitution, the part going well beyond Anselm and into contemporary evangelicalism, isn't Catholic. Well, a Catholic could follow Anselm it if they wanted to. Probably not following penal substitution to the point of saying Jesus Christ was damned. Catholics do not have a required theory of the atonement. We are free to look for the best available option.

I found this as a description of various theories of the atonement:
7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

 

[Michie]

Penal substitution, the part going well beyond Anselm and into contemporary evangelicalism, isn't Catholic. Well, a Catholic could follow Anselm it if they wanted to. Probably not following penal substitution to the point of saying Jesus Christ was damned. Catholics do not have a required theory of the atonement. We are free to look for the best available option.

I found this as a description of various theories of the atonement:
7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

I lean towards #3. Christus Victor.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If Penal Substitution isn't Catholic, how do the sacrifices we make repair the world? For example the children at Fatima would tie robes around their waists and refuse to eat in order to save sinners from hell.

We can repair the world by doing good and necessary and helpful deeds. Fasting even does some good, and fasting does seem to be expected of us by our Lord. I'm not sure how reparations fit into or do not fit in to penal substitution. For myself I don't really do penal substitution theory, leaning a little more towards Gustav Aulen's 'Christus Victor' model. Not sold on that model, but it seems attractive, much more than penal substitution as used by evangelicals of a more extreme sort.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I lean towards #3. Christus Victor.

I lean more that way too. Emphasis on 'lean'. I'm not sold out for any of them. And I don't have to be to be a good and even traditional Catholic.

 

[Michie]

I lean more that way too. Emphasis on 'lean'. I'm not sold out for any of them. And I don't have to be to be a good and even traditional Catholic.

I just feel it is more complex than that and can be said it is somewhat of a sacred mystery. There are somethings we may never know completely on this side. To expect that is somewhat unrealistic. As Paul said, we see in a mirror darkly.

2 Corinthians 13:12

 

[chevyontheriver]

I just feel it is more complex than that and can be said it is somewhat of a sacred mystery. There are somethings we may never know completely on this side. To expect that is somewhat unrealistic. As Paul said, we see in a mirror darkly.

2 Corinthians 13:12

Exactly. Theories of the atonement are an exercise in systematic theology. But the Bible is almost all non-systematic. It's TRUE, but it's not systematic. I'm curious and I want to know the perfect theory, but I appreciate that the systematic attempts haven't exactly pegged it yet.

 

[Michie]

Exactly. Theories of the atonement are an exercise in systematic theology. But the Bible is almost all non-systematic. It's TRUE, but it's not systematic. I'm curious and I want to know the perfect theory, but I appreciate that the systematic attempts haven't exactly pegged it yet.

It can be interesting up to a point for me but after awhile it seems like an exercise in futility for me. But I am not the most patient person in the world either.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The baseline is this: God is wrathful or dishonored and someone needs to pay for it.

No. God has been disobeyed, and the one disobeying has to pay, (unless God chose to show him mercy, by God's Son taking his place.)

How can we sin against God? He's immutable.

By disobeying. What has that got against immutability?

I think of forgiveness in a holistic way, so Christ forgiving me means that he has taken away the sin inside of me.

While that is nice, it isn't the point of the question at hand. "Forgiven of one's sin" is to no longer owe the debt.

How is punishing another setting things right?

Well, for one thing, it isn't just 'another' that is punished in our place. Another mere human or even an angel could not be our substitute. God himself was sinned against, and God himself provided the substitution. Net zero, restored.

These are the expressions/manifestations of our sinful way of being.

Of our sinful nature —yes.

He said too, that if God had desired sacrifice, he would have brought it. But what God wanted was David's contrite heart.

True. Not sure why you said so, though, as if it contrasted or contradicted my point?

Christ isn't punished in our stead?

Yes. I just finished saying as much.

Now, you seem to be saying that punishment does remove sin (restores the balance). I'm confused.

You just finished saying that 'remove sin' is (to you) removing it from the sinner. That has nothing to do with restoring the balance.

But what I was referring to in: "True that; punishing, done here in this temporal existence, or later, in the Lake of Fire —neither one removes the sin. Only Christ's substitution does that. He bore our penalty." is that when one goes to Perdition, it does not remove his sin from him. Nor, when one is punished here on earth for what he has done, is he thereby relieved from his debt to God.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

@ViaCrucis ,

Here is the hymn I spoke of earlier. We sang this last week.

Salvation unto us has come.

1. Salvation unto us has come by God's free grace and favor. Good works cannot avert our doom, They help and save us never. Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone, Who did for all the world stone, He is our one Redeemer.

2. What God did in his Law demand, And none to him could render, Caused wrath and woe on every hand from man, the vile offender. Our flesh has not those pure desires, The spirit of the law requires, and lost is our condition.

3. It was a false, misleading dream that God his Law had given, That sinners could themselves redeem and by their works gain heaven. The Law is but a mirror bright to bring the inbred sin to light that lurks within our nature.

4. From sin our flesh cannot abstain, Sin held its sway unceasing; The task was useless and in vain, our guilt was e'er increasing. None can remove sin's poisoned dart or purify our guileful heart, So deep is our corruption.

5. Yet as the Law must be fulfilled or we must die despairing, Christ came and has God's anger stilled, our human nature sharing. He has for us the Law obeyed and that's the Father's vengeance stayed which over us impended.

6. Since Christ has full atonement made and brought to us salvation, Each Christian therefore may be glad and build on this foundation. Your grace alone, dear Lord, I plead, your death is now my life indeed, for you have paid my ransom.

7. Let me not doubt, but truly see your Word cannot be broken; Your call rings out, 'Come unto me!" No falsehood have you spoken. Baptized into your precious name, my faith cannot be put to shame, and I shall never perish.

8. The Law reveals the guilt of sin and makes us conscious-stricken; But then the Gospel enters in the sinful soul to quicken. Come to the Cross, trust in Christ, and live; the Law no peace can ever give, no comfort and no blessing.

9. Faith clings to Jesus' cross alone and rests in him and unceasing; And by its fruits true faith is known, with love and hope increasing. For faith alone can justify; Works serve our neighbor and supply the proof that faith is living.

10. All blessing, honor, thanks, and praise to Father, Son, and Spirit, the God who saved us by his grace; All glory to his merit. O triune God in heav'n above, You have revealed your saving love; Your blessed name we hallow.

Text: Paul Speratus (1484-1551)

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

No. God has been disobeyed, and the one disobeying has to pay, (unless God chose to show him mercy, by God's Son taking his place.)

According to Protestants Christ pays. Why does Christ have to pay?

By disobeying. What has that got against immutability?

If God is immutable then us disobeying him doesn't alter or change him. I hope one day to be immutable. I want to love everyone despite what they wish 'to do' to me. I do not want to be affected by their sin at all, but love them in the face of the worse they could ever come up with. That's the sort of love I hope God has for me.

While that is nice, it isn't the point of the question at hand. "Forgiven of one's sin" is to no longer owe the debt.

Strictly speaking, even if we were perfect, we could not repay the debt owed to God, simply for creating us. But God doesn't put that on us or on Christ. The debt doesn't equate to sin. We are not sinners by being creatures.

Well, for one thing, it isn't just 'another' that is punished in our place. Another mere human or even an angel could not be our substitute. God himself was sinned against, and God himself provided the substitution. Net zero, restored.

I thought God died because we were already dead, so he went to where we are.

You just finished saying that 'remove sin' is (to you) removing it from the sinner. That has nothing to do with restoring the balance.

I don't think of sin as affecting some sort of God-Man balance. All that can be weighed comes to us through nature and we can know nothing about God except what comes to us via nature; our conscience, our senses, what we see, hear, touch, ect. God, as he is in himself cannot be known.

But what I was referring to in: "True that; punishing, done here in this temporal existence, or later, in the Lake of Fire —neither one removes the sin. Only Christ's substitution does that. He bore our penalty." is that when one goes to Perdition, it does not remove his sin from him. Nor, when one is punished here on earth for what he has done, is he thereby relieved from his debt to God.

I still don't understand. It sounds like you are saying that we can affect God as God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

According to Protestants Christ pays. Why does Christ have to pay?

God's justice must be satisfied. Either the sinner pays the debt, or Christ does. Only Christ can be a substitute in this.

If God is immutable then us disobeying him doesn't alter or change him. I hope one day to be immutable. I want to love everyone despite what they wish 'to do' to me. I do not want to be affected by their sin at all, but love them in the face of the worse they could ever come up with. That's the sort of love I hope God has for me.

True. Our disobedience doesn't change him. He remains the same.

Strictly speaking, even if we were perfect, we could not repay the debt owed to God, simply for creating us. But God doesn't put that on us or on Christ. The debt doesn't equate to sin. We are not sinners by being creatures.

A 'debt' owed to God for creating us isn't a question of justice. Gratitude perhaps, but it is not a crime.

I thought God died because we were already dead, so he went to where we are.

Curious where you got that from! That is not even Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, as far as I know —certainly not Protestant.

I don't think of sin as affecting some sort of God-Man balance. All that can be weighed comes to us through nature and we can know nothing about God except what comes to us via nature; our conscience, our senses, what we see, hear, touch, ect. God, as he is in himself cannot be known.

It is not a God-Man balance. I don't even know what you mean by that.

I still don't understand. It sounds like you are saying that we can affect God as God.

I don't see how. Maybe you think I am saying we are affecting him in some way I don't mean. I don't know.

If you see our sin affecting God in that he himself (Christ) is the one God (the Father) considers sin in our place, and that this was painful to God to do, you are right. It is. But it is his way, his very nature, to love us that way. It does not change him. He remains the same.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I'm not sure I've ever thought about the theories in depth, although I had Gustav's book many years ago. To me, Christ is a relief, a balm in a world of very real hurt. I don't know what theory that falls under.

I also consider his Incarnation and his life just as 'atoning' or 'at-one-making' as his death. So I look at him having taken flesh and think, 'Christ is with us now' or his healing miracles, 'Christ is making us whole'. ect.

How does fasting heal the world? I have a difficult time understanding reparations that do not have a 1:1 correlation.

We can repair the world by doing good and necessary and helpful deeds. Fasting even does some good, and fasting does seem to be expected of us by our Lord. I'm not sure how reparations fit into or do not fit in to penal substitution. For myself I don't really do penal substitution theory, leaning a little more towards Gustav Aulen's 'Christus Victor' model. Not sold on that model, but it seems attractive, much more than penal substitution as used by evangelicals of a more extreme sort.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

It’s called offering it up in union with the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus.

Does there have to be a 1:1 correlation? Like, fasting for gluttons or not speaking for gossips?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Thank you. No. I haven't decided on Orthodoxy either. I've encountered similar language with them as well. I am reading The Ladder Of Divine Ascent. The speaker talks about not knowing if he is forgiven and the dreaded Judgement (or Judge).

The decision is yours of course but I was just reminded of the question as I read the most recent messages. However, I messed up the reply. It was Orthodoxy, not Lutheranism, that I thought I was detecting in your comments. Sorry. My best to you in any case as you sort things out.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm not sure I've ever thought about the theories in depth, although I had Gustav's book many years ago. To me, Christ is a relief, a balm in a world of very real hurt. I don't know what theory that falls under.

Point is you don't have to fit yourself in to a particular theological mold on this. Some models are better than others. I think that anything which has the Father damning His Only Begotten Son is a more retrograde theory.

I also consider his Incarnation and his life just as 'atoning' or 'at-one-making' as his death. So I look at him having taken flesh and think, 'Christ is with us now' or his healing miracles, 'Christ is making us whole'. ect.

Which is also the Catholic view. Death and resurrection, sure, but also incarnation and youth and ministry. I would hope this is also a Lutheran view but I don't know. I suspect it is an Orthodox view.

How does fasting heal the world? I have a difficult time understanding reparations that do not have a 1:1 correlation.

Ditto. And yet Jesus expects us to fast. So there is something real to it all.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

God's justice must be satisfied. Either the sinner pays the debt, or Christ does. Only Christ can be a substitute in this.

True. Our disobedience doesn't change him. He remains the same.

If I love you and am unchanging and you do something terrible to me, say lie to me, I recognize that you lied to me, but I am not going to require my child to tell the true and then credit his truthfulness you. There's no point in that. The only point I can see, is if you somehow needed that bc you felt so guilty about your lying. I don't need it. I forgive you because that's who I am and I want to make you into a person that doesn't lie bc, again that's who I am and I want a relationship with you. I don't have some sense of justice that needs to be satisfied. If I had told you prior to lying to me, 'Do not lie', it's because I want you to know that I myself am trustworthy. My rule is a reflection of who I am. I am not bound by my rule. My rule is not above me. So even if you break it, it's not like you murdered the whole cosmos. You don't have that power.

A 'debt' owed to God for creating us isn't a question of justice. Gratitude perhaps, but it is not a crime.

It is a question of justice. That's why God said honor your father and mother.

Curious where you got that from! That is not even Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, as far as I know —certainly not Protestant.

Christ recapitulated our life even unto death. When Adam and Eve sinned, the punishment was death. Christ died and went to Sheol to get them. The Devil held us bondage by the fear of death (it's why we sin). But Christ entered the strong man's house, bound him and plundered his house of all his captives.

It is not a God-Man balance. I don't even know what you mean by that.

The way I understand Anselm is that Christ became man because man needed to make reparation and only God can do it.

I don't see how. Maybe you think I am saying we are affecting him in some way I don't mean. I don't know.

If you see our sin affecting God in that he himself (Christ) is the one God (the Father) considers sin in our place, and that this was painful to God to do, you are right. It is. But it is his way, his very nature, to love us that way. It does not change him. He remains the same.

Christ considered sin?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Does there have to be a 1:1 correlation? Like, fasting for gluttons or not speaking for gossips?

No. But a reparation could well be repairing a broken window. You could replace the window you broke, or replace a broken window someone else broke That restores the order of things. Fasting is a tool for spiritual advancement and a tool for disciplining our wills. It doesn't right a wrong done by a sinner, but it does make the fasting person better. And maybe there is a trickle-down to that. How do we make up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ (Col 1:24)?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Point is you don't have to fit yourself in to a particular theological mold on this. Some models are better than others. I think that anything which has the Father damning His Only Begotten Son is a more retrograde theory.

Thank you. That makes me feel better about Catholicism.

Which is also the Catholic view. Death and resurrection, sure, but also incarnation and youth and ministry. I would hope this is also a Lutheran view but I don't know. I suspect it is an Orthodox view.

Lutherans (the ones I know) believe that Christ recapitulating Adam's and Israel's life, but they seem to understand this in context of penal substitution. So, in effect, for them, Christ lived a holy life in order to 'impute' that holiness to us.

Ditto. And yet Jesus expects us to fast. So there is something real to it all.

I was just wondering if it had to be correlative.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Everyone, I hope I responded in some fashion to each reply. If not, let me know. Thanks everyone for helping me out.