Support for the death penalty

[Whyayeman]

Something went wrong just now. I had a problem with the italics button!

I have not mentioned the idea of evil. I have called murder a crime. It requires a response from society, which is in most countries a humane prison sentence. I will not try to justify the necessity for humane treatment. I do not think there is anybody advocating for torture on this thread. (Oh dear, that looks like an invitation!)

Yes, I consider the right to life inalienable. Nobody has the right to kill and that includes the state killing in our name or on our behalf. (I know there are hard cases such as self defence and the protection of other lives. I don't think these need to detain us.)

Why do humans have a right to life? Christians believe life is a gift from God and, made in His image, life is sacred. How does an atheist reach the same truth w/o believing in God?

I cannot see any merit in this. The lives of murderers are not sacred to those Christians who are prepared to take away killers' - God-given - lives. Atheists cannot consider life as a gift from God, of course; that does not mean they must consider that it is disposable. Here is an example of the primacy of life which most people whether informed by religious ideas or not would probably agree on. One man attacks another with the clear intention of killing him; the second man protects himself. Both men are seriously injured. Medics strive equally to preserve the life of the innocent and the guilty even though they know exactly what happened. I see no need here for the 'gift of life' to be invoked.

 

[o_mlly]

Something went wrong just now. I had a problem with the italics button!

Thank you for elaborating on your positions.

It seems to me, in arguing for the application of justice or mercy toward another as a fundamental obligation, the Christian bases his argument on the existence a transcendental being that prescribes that we love the other as oneself.

The atheist, if he is to be rational, has no transcendent being to which he can appeal in his argument for treating others justly or charitably. As there is for him no life but this life, he can only appeal to arguments that appeal to utility, arguments that move the individual to act only in order to increase his pleasure or reduce his suffering. The idea of justice, and certainly of mercy, are not ideas that the atheist's worldview can reach.

In as much as your arguments align with utility, defined as increasing pleasures or reducing suffering for humanity then they seem to me consistent with your worldview. Where your arguments against capital punishment do not then it seems you must invoke the Christian view of a moral order also written on your heart that requires you to love your neighbor for your neighbor's sake as well.

 

[Whyayeman]

That is about right. I have acknowledged the debt of Western societies to Christian thought. I was brought up in a broadly christian society and had a fairly solid education within that tradition and in a family which had strong ties to the church.

But this is not about my religion - or lack of it. I do not agree that my only valid argument is utilitarian.

... you must invoke the Christian view of a moral order also written on your heart that requires you to love your neighbor for your neighbor's sake as well.

We will certainly differ here, unsurprisingly. What you describe as the Christian view, is not unique to Christians. Many - most - societies have very strong traditions of respect for others. I do not think that this is a religious matter; it is a humanitarian issue which is opposed by many Christians, not least here on this thread.

 

[Carol Walker]

That is about right. I have acknowledged the debt of Western societies to Christian thought. I was brought up in a broadly christian society and had a fairly solid education within that tradition and in a family which had strong ties to the church.

But this is not about my religion - or lack of it. I do not agree that my only valid argument is utilitarian.

... you must invoke the Christian view of a moral order also written on your heart that requires you to love your neighbor for your neighbor's sake as well.

We will certainly differ here, unsurprisingly. What you describe as the Christian view, is not unique to Christians. Many - most - societies have very strong traditions of respect for others. I do not think that this is a religious matter; it is a humanitarian issue which is opposed by many Christians, not least here on this thread.

If you don't mind, I'll ask a quick question: There have been many occasions in this thread where you have responded to my arguments from Scripture with either objections from the Bible or arguments of your own from the same source.

So, was it merely that certain aspects of the Bible fit your worldview, or was there another reason? The reason I ask this is because you've mentioned, both to me and now to o_mlly, the Biblical commandment against killing and it appears that you've used it to support some of your arguments relating to how people, including Christians, view murder. You also cite the New Testament, giving examples of Jesus speaking against revenge as justice. Are you trying to show something?

(Seeking questions, not skeptical ones)

 

[Whyayeman]

There have been many occasions in this thread where you have responded to my arguments from Scripture with either objections from the Bible or arguments of your own from the same source.

So, was it merely that certain aspects of the Bible fit your worldview, or was there another reason?

I acknowledge that the Christian tradition is a part of my worldview. How could it not be? My first contact with the notion of capital punishment was coloured by the Commandment forbidding murder, as I have mentioned already. As a small boy I was not impressed by the 'explanation' that putting murderers to death was appropriate - an exception to the Commandment. Then (as now) I thought that the Divine Word - to be divine - could admit no exceptions. Yet many Christians, especially American Christians, seem to be happy with what seems to me to be a workaround.

As for the Bible - of course I long ago rejected the claim that it was the 'Word of God'. That is why arguments which only work with the acceptance of quotations from it do not cut much ice with me. I have argued from a humane viewpoint; I think capital punishment is morally wrong and indeed barbaric by modern standards. What was justified by nomadic tribes millennia ago no longer fits our more highly developed, moral sense. I think we have progressed beyond Biblical morality.

The bits of the Bible which are the best fit with my own worldview are probably the teachings of Jesus as found in the Gospels, and I again acknowledge their influence on me. (That does not make me a Christian; I do not think Jesus was divine, if indeed he existed as a person.)

 

[The Narrow Way]

I acknowledge that the Christian tradition is a part of my worldview. How could it not be? My first contact with the notion of capital punishment was coloured by the Commandment forbidding murder, as I have mentioned already. As a small boy I was not impressed by the 'explanation' that putting murderers to death was appropriate - an exception to the Commandment. Then (as now) I thought that the Divine Word - to be divine - could admit no exceptions. Yet many Christians, especially American Christians, seem to be happy with what seems to me to be a workaround.

As for the Bible - of course I long ago rejected the claim that it was the 'Word of God'. That is why arguments which only work with the acceptance of quotations from it do not cut much ice with me. I have argued from a humane viewpoint; I think capital punishment is morally wrong and indeed barbaric by modern standards. What was justified by nomadic tribes millennia ago no longer fits our more highly developed, moral sense. I think we have progressed beyond Biblical morality.

The bits of the Bible which are the best fit with my own worldview are probably the teachings of Jesus as found in the Gospels, and I again acknowledge their influence on me. (That does not make me a Christian; I do not think Jesus was divine, if indeed he existed as a person.)

It's posts like this that will plant the seeds of doubt and skepticism in the minds of many young Christians. I don't understand why ANTI-CHRISTIAN posts are allowed on a CHRISTIAN FORUM. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Whyayeman]

It's posts like this that will plant the seeds of doubt and skepticism in the minds of many young Christians. I don't understand why ANTI-CHRISTIAN posts are allowed on a CHRISTIAN FORUM. It makes no sense to me.

Two sentences; two points.

1. I agree that my post could sow the seeds of doubt and scepticism. That was not my intention; I was responding to the question put to me in #264. I hope there nothing wrong about giving an honest view here on one of the few forums where I am allowed to post.

2. I do not believe that expressing non-Christian views is anti-Christian. And a great many Christians share my views on capital punishment.

 

[The Narrow Way]

Two sentences; two points.

1.I agree that my post could sow the seeds of doubt and scepticism. That was not my intention; I was responding to the question put to me in #264. I hope there nothing wrong about giving an honest view here on one of the few forums where I am allowed to post.

I appreciate your honesty, Whyayeman. And I don't believe you are breaking any rules. I'll be the one in trouble for questioning the rules. It just makes no sense to me. I also appreciate the kindness of your posts...I'm not faulting you at all. I just completely do not understand why a Christian forum allows posts that, even as you honestly agreed with me, "sow the seeds of doubt and skepticism." Makes no good sense to me.

 

[Whyayeman]

Well, I won't be making trouble for you! I am sure you are aware that there are very few areas open to non-Christian views on Christian Forums. Perhaps they are there to facilitate a degree of free speech.

Much more to the point is where you stand on the issue under discussion. So far there has been very little support here for my abolitionist views from professed Christians. In my reading of the Gospels there is no support for it (though the Old Testament is soaked in bloody remedies for transgressions much less serious than the taking of human life).

 

[Desk trauma]

I don't understand why ANTI-CHRISTIAN posts are allowed on a CHRISTIAN FORUM. It makes no sense to me.

Non-Christians are not allowed to post in much of this forum. If our presence is that distasteful to you I would advise only using those areas of the site.

 

[Estrid]

I appreciate your honesty, Whyayeman. And I don't believe you are breaking any rules. I'll be the one in trouble for questioning the rules. It just makes no sense to me. I also appreciate the kindness of your posts...I'm not faulting you at all. I just completely do not understand why a Christian forum allows posts that, even as you honestly agreed with me, "sow the seeds of doubt and skepticism." Makes no good sense to me.

I am not anti Christian. I've seen no such posts here.

This seems to me an incorrect characterization.

As for doubt and skepticism, that is far more complex.
Doubt about what, exactly?

I've observed a huge range of beliefs within Chridtianity, and
harsh denunciation of others' sincerely held Christian faith.
Some ask, is this wrong, unacceptable, this sowing of
doubt and skepticism in sect v sect talk?

Traditionally it seems to me Christianity has thrived in
harsh environments. Untested faith is, what?
Great was the merit of Job of all the martyrs.

They are not praised for dwelling in a shelter, free from
all challenge or thought.

The kind of challenge I try to pose is not ever whether
there is a God. I don't believe there is, but there is no
evidence one way or the other on which to base an argument.

I'm more interested in beliefs, statements of fact about
physical reality, statements based in a chosen Bible interpretation
that are clearly not supported by any physical evidence.
That are clearly contradicted by all physical evidence.
(see wotld wide flood, for example).
I am always curious about the range of responses to this
dilemma.

As for capital punishment, I see it as wrong.
There are many strange circumstances in which it
may be an "only choice" but scheduled state executions
I think are profoundly wrong.

The Bible seems a poor guide in this, with mixed messages
and all very open to choices re interpretation.

I'd personally think, rather than trying to work out what the Bible says,
consider just this- what if the person is innocent?
It has happened many times,
Absolute certainty is not for this earth.

 

[Whyayeman]

The kind of challenge I try to pose is not ever whether there is a God. I don't believe there is, but there is no
evidence one way or the other on which to base an argument.

I know this is liable to stray from the topic, but my view on this is that there is no convincing evidence for the existence of God. Nor need there be; faith is belief doing without the evidence.

Back to the topic?

 

[Estrid]

I know this is liable to stray from the topic, but my view on this is that there is no convincing evidence for the existence of God. Nor need there be; faith is belief doing without the evidence.

Back to the topic?

Back to topic ifn there still is one

 

[Whyayeman]

Well, I will respond to points made if I think them relevant. It would be nice to read a few posts from professed Christians in favour of abolition.

I think my own position has been aired by now!

 

[lismore]

Just to throw an example into the mix, here's one:

Robbie McIntosh, 34, jailed for life for murdering a dog walker, on home leave from prison, attempted to murder a dog walker with a dumbell.
Justice secretary says sorry to woman attacked by convicted killer - BBC News

There's no death penalty here so when he gets out of prison again I wouldn't want to be a dog walker.

 

[Whyayeman]

There's no death penalty here so when he gets out of prison again I wouldn't want to be a dog walker.

It is extremely unlikely that McIntosh will ever be released on licence again.

 

[lismore]

It is extremely unlikely that McIntosh will ever be released on licence again.

With capital punishment that would be a certainty.

 

[Desk trauma]

With capital punishment that would be a certainty.

Just as it would be with a whole life order.

 

[Whyayeman]

McIntosh was on home leave so it sounds as if, having served the tariff set by the court, he was moved to open conditions preparatory to being released on licence.

No parole board will contemplate a licence after this.

 

[lismore]

Just as it would be with a whole life order.

He was sentenced to life imprisonment for murder and released at 34. He's a sociopath who fooled a parole board once and hours after release tried to murder a second person. There are many like him walking the streets.