Support for the death penalty

Desk trauma

Front row at the dumpster fire of the republic
Supporter
Dec 1, 2011
20,189
16,169
✟1,173,009.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
He was sentenced to life imprisonment for murder and released at 34. He's a sociopath who fooled a parole board once and hours after release tried to murder a second person. There are many like him walking the streets.
Hence why I indicated a whole life order which in my understanding does not have a possibility for parole.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: lismore
Upvote 0

Whyayeman

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2018
3,857
2,492
Worcestershire
✟158,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
There are many like him walking the streets.

And yet there are vanishingly few murders committed by murderers who are out on licence. In the UK the vast majority lead ordinary lives, loved by family and doing useful work.
 
Upvote 0

rebornfree

Senior Veteran
Supporter
May 5, 2007
8,404
14,214
NW England
✟790,449.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Divorced
It would be nice to read a few posts from professed Christians in favour of abolition.
I'm also in the UK so it's not a mater of abolition here but I am against capital punishment. Matthew Chapters 5 - 7 are about love, forgiveness and non-retaliation. The Lord Jesus states that it is not just murder, adultery, etc. which are sins but the heart attitudes which can lead to them.

God has shown me mercy for my sins so I should show mercy to others. We all deserve death because we all have sinned (apart from Jesus) but Jesus came to take the punishment for us (Romans 3 v 21-26). If we acknowledge our sin and accept His death in our place then we have eternal life. It is an amazing exchange of Jesus' righteousness for our sinfulness if we accept it. Therefore I would feel quite bad about executing murderers when I have gone unpunished. Also I would want people to come to repentance, because those who refuse Jesus' offer of forgiveness will be eternally separated from God and all that is good.

Another reason is that we don't know what the perpetrator has had to suffer in their life. It is not a level playing field. Some have had terrible disadvantages. Also I believe that society shares some of the blame by the things it extols and the violence shown in some TV programmes, films and on the internet. That is not to say that perpetrators shouldn't be stopped when committing the crime, even if doing so results in their death, if it would save others but to sentence them to death when it would not help the victim is something I'm not easy about.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Whyayeman

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2018
3,857
2,492
Worcestershire
✟158,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Inmate executed in Oklahoma’s first lethal injection in six years

Oklahoma has executed a man for the 1998 stabbing death of a prison cafeteria worker, the state’s first lethal injection following a six-year moratorium, after the US supreme court on Thursday cleared the way for the execution to proceed.

John Marion Grant, 60, was declared dead at 4.21pm after being strapped to a gurney inside the execution chamber and given a lethal injection of three drugs.

Grant was the first inmate to be executed since a series of flawed lethal injections in 2014 and 2015. He was serving a 130-year prison sentence for several armed robberies when witnesses say he dragged Gay Carter, a prison cafeteria worker, into a mop closet and stabbed her 16 times with a homemade shank. He was sentenced to death in 1999. The state twice denied Grant’s request for clemency.

Inmate executed in Oklahoma’s first lethal injection in six years


This awful case epitomises the case for abolition in my view. Grant was kept on Death Row for 23 years while legal argumentrs caused delays to his execution. Then it was botched; the cocktail of drugs used is not up to the job. Grant finally died after 15 minutes of convulsions and vomiting.

Even mad dogs get better treatment than this instance of inhumane killing.

[If there were a case for retention of the death penalty this one could be it. Having said that - I still disagree with the execution of murderers.]
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Estrid
Upvote 0

Carol Walker

Active Member
Apr 18, 2021
79
19
25
Norman
✟19,704.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
This awful case epitomises the case for abolition in my view. Grant was kept on Death Row for 23 years while legal argumentrs caused delays to his execution. Then it was botched; the cocktail of drugs used is not up to the job. Grant finally died after 15 minutes of convulsions and vomiting.

While I agree that whoever administered the drugs should've been more careful to do right (sincerely), this issue brings up a serious question which has been discussed somewhat.

What does a murderer deserve?

While it may appear that this is what we've been talking about the whole time(and if it is...welp.) I mean it in this sense: Grant kills one person and is put in prison. Later, while on leave, he kills another. He's just robbed two people of their lives and deeply affected two, maybe more, families. He goes to jail again and, after 23 years or so, is eventually executed for what he did. His execution is botched and he dies in agony.

Didn't he deserve that? Didn't he deserve exactly what he gave to those people given back to him? Just because someone suffers, that doesn't automatically make the suffering evil.

So, what does a murder deserve? True, if Grant had been kept in prison, he would never have murdered that second person. But, as I have learned, inmates pass their secrets and ways on to each other while they're in jail and thus each becomes the worse for the experience, morally. If Grant had been executed (properly) right away, he would never be able to corrupt anyone else, which he may have done. One solution is to keep everyone in isolation...but the complications with that become pretty clear. What did Grant deserve?
 
Upvote 0

Whyayeman

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2018
3,857
2,492
Worcestershire
✟158,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Well, what he deserves and what a humane society requires of its justice system are two different things. I understand that Grant was already serving a 130 year sentence for his crimes; the murder occurred while in prison for them.

This is a perfect case for looking at the difference between justice and deserts. Nothing the law can do is equal to the crimes he committed. This is true for many - maybe most - violent criminals. In my view the law should never stoop to the level of violence perpetrated by criminals; it should strive to uphold the standards of the decent society it protects. Oklahoma has failed at this: by allowing 23 years to pass while the prisoner Grant was kept in a state of uncertainty; and by botching the execution. These should themselves be crimes in a civilised society.
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

Carol Walker

Active Member
Apr 18, 2021
79
19
25
Norman
✟19,704.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Well, what he deserves and what a humane society requires of its justice system are two different things. I understand that Grant was already serving a 130 year sentence for his crimes; the murder occurred while in prison for them.

This is a perfect case for looking at the difference between justice and deserts. Nothing the law can do is equal to the crimes he committed. This is true for many - maybe most - violent criminals. In my view the law should never stoop to the level of violence perpetrated by criminals; it should strive to uphold the standards of the decent society it protects. Oklahoma has failed at this: by allowing 23 years to pass while the prisoner Grant was kept in a state of uncertainty; and by botching the execution. These should themselves be crimes in a civilised society.

I can understand how law is flawed enough for a.situation like what you just stated to occur. The law of this land is made by humans, who are fallible and fundamentally flawed. Evil and wickedness pervert what we do and why.

That's why I keep bringing up Scripture, which was made by God, who is perfect. After all, if what someone deserves and what society requires of itself are two different things, how are we to figure what the difference is when we've been raised in this society all our lives? There's got to be some absolute standard that we can hold to which sets out clearly what we should and should not do with regards to the crimes of others. But what human standard is like that?
 
Upvote 0

Whyayeman

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2018
3,857
2,492
Worcestershire
✟158,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I can understand how law is flawed enough for a situation like what you just stated to occur.

Indeed. Botched executions are a regular occurrence in America. Compared with the very high murder rate executions are rare in your country. Death Row is crowded, with men (and some women I suppose) waiting many years before sentence is carried out. The method now favoured in some states is lethal injection. I think this is meant to be more humane; if so it is a terrible, cruel failure. The condemned invariably show signs of extreme distress for many minutes.

The history of capital punishment is one of increasing sensitivity or squeamishness about the method employed. I think lethal injection is a retrograde step, earlier methods being designed to be instantaneous.

... if what someone deserves and what society requires of itself are two different things, how are we to figure what the difference is when we've been raised in this society all our lives?

Easy. As a believer you will be familiar with the concept of leaving judgment of human souls to God. That takes care of the difference for Christians. For the rest of us we have the shared understanding of what we expect from a caring, responsible society; humane values applied in all circumstances.

What the Law does in our name has to be seen as the best of what we are. This terrible case is - as I have said earlier - the toughest test of the quality of our society. I believe the Oklahoman authority has failed the test abjectly and shamefully. America and Americans are better than this.
 
Upvote 0

Carol Walker

Active Member
Apr 18, 2021
79
19
25
Norman
✟19,704.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Indeed. Botched executions are a regular occurrence in America. Compared with the very high murder rate executions are rare in your country. Death Row is crowded, with men (and some women I suppose) waiting many years before sentence is carried out. The method now favoured in some states is lethal injection. I think this is meant to be more humane; if so it is a terrible, cruel failure. The condemned invariably show signs of extreme distress for many minutes.

The history of capital punishment is one of increasing sensitivity or squeamishness about the method employed. I think lethal injection is a retrograde step, earlier methods being designed to be instantaneous.



Easy. As a believer you will be familiar with the concept of leaving judgment of human souls to God. That takes care of the difference for Christians. For the rest of us we have the shared understanding of what we expect from a caring, responsible society; humane values applied in all circumstances.

What the Law does in our name has to be seen as the best of what we are. This terrible case is - as I have said earlier - the toughest test of the quality of our society. I believe the Oklahoman authority has failed the test abjectly and shamefully. America and Americans are better than this.

Okay, so correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but part of what I got from what you just said is that if we were to use the death penalty, it would be humane to use more instantaneous methods, to ensure the least amount of suffering possible. Was that accurate?

The reason I ask is because it confuses me to hear you speak on how the death penalty is wrong, but then turn around and says that if we did use it, we should be using the most painless methods obtainable. If the death penalty is wrong, why not stand for denying its right to exist at all? Or...am I not understanding what you were really saying?
 
Upvote 0

Whyayeman

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2018
3,857
2,492
Worcestershire
✟158,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I am not in favour of the death penalty. I think you have misunderstood me in my last. I have suggested that the people who favour the death penalty have the idea that it is more humane for the death of the condemned man to be instantaneous, or at the least painless.

There is a clear progression historically, from long drawn-out death by burning at the stake, crucifixion and other vile practices to hanging which was meant to quick and the guillotine which was specifically designed to make death instantaneous and painless. I think the lethal injection practised in some American states is meant to be painless and an improvement on the electric chair and firing squad. We have seen that executions by this newest method are far from painless and anything but instantaneous.

I hope that is clearer now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Whyayeman

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2018
3,857
2,492
Worcestershire
✟158,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Because it would be interesting to learn your thoughts, some of your reasoning which has brought you to this uncompromising conclusion.

For example, do you see any exceptions to your rule - kill and be killed? Self defence, protection of others, killing in the line of duty? Or is your rule as absolute as you have expressed it?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnPaul88

A Soldier In God Army.
Dec 18, 2021
387
157
Trenton
✟38,521.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Because it would be interesting to learn your thoughts, some of your reasoning which has brought you to this uncompromising conclusion.

For example, do you see any exceptions to your rule - kill and be killed? Self defence, protection of others, killing in the line of duty? Or is your rule as absolute as you have expressed it?
I meant murder, not killing someone in self defense.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ruthiesea

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2007
714
504
✟71,668.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I have been against the death penalty for 50+ years, but I am no doubt in the minority on CF. My view is that capital punishment is not consistent with the spirit of the Gospels, though it is definitely consistent with the Old Testament and possibly with Paul's writings, though that it not certain.
Capital punishment is called for in Torah. However, it was rarely if ever used. In order to impose the death penalty certain rules are applied. These rules make it all but impossible for the death penalty to be imposed. While it remains on the book in Israel is hasn’t been used in 60 years, since Adolph Eichmann. In Talmud one rabbi argues that an execution every 7 years is to many; another says that once every 70 years is too many.

Judaism teaches that all life is precious.
 
Upvote 0