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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Lazarus Short

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What I don't get is how Universalists are 'ok' with how God has literally wiped out entire peoples on this side of the grave due to their sins in opposition to His sense of Holiness and Justice, but ... somehow, on the other side of the grave, they insist there's just going to be Mercy upon Mercy (and no applied justice?)

Am I missing something here? From the looks of it, there's an overall conceptual inconsistency that lingers in the way in which Universalists seem to handle the Bible from Genesis to Revelation ...

Yeah, kinda, sorta. If in fact, it was God Who commanded the killing of men, women, children, the aged and their animals...it was really no big deal. Why? Because God knows, and has told us, that He will be resurrecting them later. I worried about those massacres back in my early days as a Christian, but UR has blotted out that worry. Yes, the Lake of Fire will need to be traversed, but there is still hope.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yeah, kinda, sorta. If in fact, it was God Who commanded the killing of men, women, children, the aged and their animals...it was really no big deal. Why? Because God knows, and has told us, that He will be resurrecting them later. I worried about those massacres back in my early days as a Christian, but UR has blotted out that worry. Yes, the Lake of Fire will need to be traversed, but there is still hope.

... I agree that God will be likely resurrecting "them" later, but I thought their resurrection was going to be to one of judgement rather than salvation. Am I reading the New Testament wrong on this?
 
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Lazarus Short

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His Gospel...
2 Peter 2:1-3
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

I note that Peter does not ID a specific group here. You say it's us. We say it's you. We both say...it's them. Quoting that passage proves nothing unless you see it thru Peter's first century POV.
 
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Lazarus Short

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... I agree that God will be likely resurrecting "them" later, but I thought their resurrection was going to be to one of judgement rather than salvation. Am I reading the New Testament wrong on this?

In my long cruise thru the KJV, I saw (often shown in the marginal notes) "judgment" rendered in the text as "condemnation," and "condemnation" rendered as "damnation." However, if we stick to the more neutral "judgment," it does not carry within itself what the nature of the judgment is...just that something is, or will be, judged.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In my long cruise thru the KJV, I saw (often shown in the marginal notes) "judgment" rendered in the text as "condemnation," and "condemnation" rendered as "damnation." However, if we stick to the more neutral "judgment," it does not carry within itself what the nature of the judgment is...just that something is, or will be, judged.

I usually try not to rely upon marginal notes. It's better to wrestle with the original text(s) as much as possible on these kinds of things, whether it was John who wrote something or Paul.
 
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spiritfilledjm

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I cannot stress this enough: Which Bible?

In my Ferrar Fenton version, my Young's Literal version and "The Scriptures" version, it sounds VERY good.

The same Bible that says no one comes to the Father except through Him (Jesus)...
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I note that Peter does not ID a specific group here. You say it's us. We say it's you. We both say...it's them. Quoting that passage proves nothing unless you see it thru Peter's first century POV.
Ok....
Romans 16:17-18
"I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive."
 
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Lazarus Short

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Ok....
Romans 16:17-18
"I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive."

Still no specific group is identified. To arrive at an answer, we need to rewind and see what was being taught as Truth at that time. Sadly, each side will say, "It was out side!"
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Still no specific group is identified. To arrive at an answer, we need to rewind and see what was being taught as Truth at that time. Sadly, each side will say, "It was out side!"
All Christians led by His Holy Spirit know the truth. This is His promise to us.
" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth
 
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spiritfilledjm

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What kind of answer is that? Is there a Bible version that says otherwise?

Apparently, since there are people that argue that everyone goes to heaven no matter what...
 
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Lazarus Short

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Apparently, since there are people that argue that everyone goes to heaven no matter what...

I don't teach "no matter what." I teach that ALL come to the Father (eventually) through Jesus the Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Many will need to traverse the Lake of Fire to have their dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble burned away. It will not be pleasant, but it will yield the silver and gold that remains. Any questions?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I don't teach "no matter what." I teach that ALL come to the Father (eventually) through Jesus the Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Many will need to traverse the Lake of Fire to have their dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble burned away. It will not be pleasant, but it will yield the silver and gold that remains. Any questions?
Purgatory?
 
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spiritfilledjm

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I don't teach "no matter what." I teach that ALL come to the Father (eventually) through Jesus the Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Many will need to traverse the Lake of Fire to have their dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble burned away. It will not be pleasant, but it will yield the silver and gold that remains. Any questions?

Revelation 20:11-15

Anyone who does not accept Christ as Lord and Savior, those whose names are blotted out, will not just have to walk through the Lake of Fire...they will be thrown into it.
 
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ozso

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His Gospel...
2 Peter 2:1-3
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

I'm sure many apply 2 Peter 2:1-3 to whatever doctrine they don't agree with. Including ones you believe in I'm sure. But I don't see how it practically applies to Christian universalism. Unlike say Mormonism, it's not some movement that suddenly sprang up later on, and it doesn't have any founder/prophet who started it and profited from it. And from what I understand, it wasn't even called a heresy until the 6th century. In fact apparently Gregory of Nyssa (who's known as "the father of fathers" rather than a heretic) was in favor of it.

Now I don't know for sure if it's correct or not, but it seems to me that many objections I see given against it seem unwarranted.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I'm sure many apply 2 Peter 2:1-3 to whatever doctrine they don't agree with. Including ones you believe in I'm sure. But I don't see how it practically applies to Christian universalism. Unlike say Mormonism, it's not some movement that suddenly sprang up later on, and it doesn't have any founder/prophet who started it and profited from it. And from what I understand, it wasn't even called a heresy until the 6th century. In fact apparently Gregory of Nyssa (who's known as "the father of fathers" rather than a heretic) was in favor of it.

Now I don't know for sure if it's correct or not, but it seems to me that many objections I see given against it seem unwarranted.
Consider this...Universalism for the most part, though it has many sects, is basically the repackaging of Purgatory in Catholicism. Yes, I would agree Purgatory along with its indulgences was widely accepted until the Reformation. That being said, we who are fighters for truth, rebuke such teachings.
Blessings.
 
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eleos1954

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What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

God is not a monster and He IS Love. There will indeed be those who move on to eternal life and also those who will not .... His Word is very clear on this. Those who do not will be destroyed to never exist again along with satan and his minions ( NOT tortured as some put forth).... only God knows the heart and He is just. We do not know who will and will not be saved .... salvation is totally up to Jesus ... but we do know some will and some won't. Salvation has been in place and available to mankind since the fall of mankind and will continue to be available until Jesus returns after His judgement takes place.
 
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ozso

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But...atheists DON'T teach that those who know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will still have existence.

Let's not skip over that finer detail.

But they DO believe in non-existence after death the same as annihilationists. Citing what they don't believe in addition to that particular thing, doesn't negate the fact that atheism and annihilationim both teaches non-existence after death. It seems to me that atheists I know of would prefer annihilation over universalism. That said, I consider annihilation a possibility based on scripture. But it's certainly not free of criticism.
 
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Clare73

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The reason why I'm willing to consider it, is because it has been shown to have Biblical backing.
Which when examined does not hold up Biblically.
 
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Clare73

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One argument when it comes to what's Biblical, is that some things Jesus said are incorrectly ascribed to Him talking about hell, when instead He's giving national Judgements against Israel, the same as the OT prophets. Because Israel was about to be wiped out in a bloody firery holocaust. If one ascribes certain things Jesus said, to being about hell, then it seems He didn't have much to say about Israel's grim impending doom, which seems highly unlikely to me.
Demonstration?
 
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