Teacher Resigns After Parent Complains Pride Flag Is "Personal Agenda"

[muichimotsu]

He already had a sign "Everyone is Welcome" that let people know everyone was welcome.

My noting that the pride flag has historical connotations related to sexual orientation is not turning that into something sexual.

Indicating the district apparently wanted to remain neutral in regards to sexual orientation is not making that into something sexual.

I provided the example of a heterosexual pride flag and an objectum sexual pride flag as parallels because they also have connotations (though less well known by far) relating to sexual orientation. And I wanted to see how the poster would treat those examples.

It also has connotations in regards to gender identity, romantic attraction, etc, yet you fixate on the sex aspect...seems a little suspect...

You're myopically narrowing it down to one thing when you supposedly know what the flag means, yet ignore the other aspects to act like this is "sexualizing" middle school children, like a drag queen is often accused of doing to even younger children when they're just dressed up and reading books to kids (to encourage enjoying reading and being literate!)

Yeah, because most people don't see straight people as "persecuted" and the other group is likely more considered a paraphilia and not a sexual orientation, so you're comparing either a disingenuous equivocation or a minority of a minority and expecting people to just know it in a world where the overload of information is palpable

 

[98cwitr]

What would a homosexual student need to speak with this teacher about that has to do with the displaying of the pride flag specifically? Their sexuality? Is that an appropriate conversation to have between a student and teacher?

 

[muichimotsu]

If it includes everyone, how does it differ from the "Everyone Is Welcome sign"?

And if it includes everyone, then how does this statement from the article make sense?

as an openly gay man that seems a bit discriminatory because if you’re a straight teacher, you can talk about your spouse, your kids, you can have a picture of your family in the classroom, but I have a flag and then all of a sudden there’s a problem.

If the flag is equivalent in his view to a family photo, then that means it is saying something about him, not just a "Everyone is Welcome" message.

That is verified in another quote:

‘If you have a problem with the flag representing me, or students who identify as LGBTQ+, then you can probably find a different class,’” Wallis said.

So again, if the flag is equivalent to a family photo, why can't the straight teacher put a sign that says "Everyone is Welcome" and then put a straight pride flag as well?



Well that rather depends. The article didn't designate which pride flag was displayed. There are of course variants now.



It is a counterfactual. We can't know. But I would doubt anything would be said. But that is because I don't see a pride flag and a memento photo to be equivalent, but you do.



In this case it appears to be an issue of the school wanting to be neutral in regards to sexual orientation.

Because the straight pride movement is disingenuous in what pride means and the status of straight people in human culture as the norm meaning they are not remotely persecuted

They can be similar in the implications, but different in the specific content, don't oversimplify me via strawman

It "appears" to be that way when this wasn't about sexual orientation remotely as the focus, because LGBTQ, as I've already noted, doesn't just cover sexual orientation, but romantic orientation AND gender identity.

 

[muichimotsu]

What would a homosexual student need to speak with this teacher about that has to do with the displaying of the pride flag specifically? Their sexuality? Is that an appropriate conversation to have between a student and teacher?

The pride flag is not what is necessarily initiating the conversation, it is the teacher saying the students can speak to them if they have issues that may relate to it (but not necessarily)

Who are you to dictate what is appropriate in regards to a conversation you don't seem to understand in the first place doesn't have to involve sexuality? And there can be age appropriate responses to a discussion on that, as well as romantic attraction or gender identity. You keep trying to pain teachers like they're malicious entities out to molest children, which is dangerously close to a prejudicial assumption

 

[98cwitr]

The pride flag is not what is necessarily initiating the conversation, it is the teacher saying the students can speak to them if they have issues that may relate to it (but not necessarily)

So then there's no purpose in displaying the flag then? Even your explanation supports the assertion that it's propaganda.

Who are you to dictate what is appropriate in regards to a conversation you don't seem to understand in the first place doesn't have to involve sexuality?

I'm a parent of school aged children, and I am concerned about what my children are exposed to, and what my tax dollars are funding. Sexual orientation most certainly involves one's "sexuality" at the root of the identity; hence the word "sexual." I appreciate those who do not shove it into people's faces so arrogantly (as this teacher did...to children).

And there can be age appropriate responses to a discussion on that, as well as romantic attraction or gender identity. You keep trying to pain teachers like they're malicious entities out to molest children, which is dangerously close to a prejudicial assumption

Never been good at painting...I do observe things, including trees and their fruits.

 

[muichimotsu]

I feel like I shouldn't have explain there's nuance to this (not to you, but other posters). Physical violence, threats of physical violence, constant or repeated verbal abuse can certainly be damaging for children both long and short term and I think schools are obligated to make serious efforts to stop these things from happening.

The idea that children need to be protected from even the mere possibility of being offended or insulted or getting their feelings hurt is pretty absurd. I don't think it's good for children in the long run, even if it seems like a good idea in the short run.

Everyone faces conflict, people who dislike you for shallow or superficial reasons, and jerks in general. I don't think there's any way to change that. I think adults who have learned to deal with such people and conflicts at an early age are better off than those who didn't.

I read an article months ago about a woman who works for Google (or worked for Google) who got fired (or quit) over her repeated disparaging remarks about the company and management. During the MeToo debacle, she repeatedly claimed to be offended that the company hadn't put out a company-wide statement affirming that they "believed women". She made these claims of how it was causing her undue stress and emotional damage because the company had expressed support for other causes in the past....but refused to simply believe women. Instead of putting out a statement agreeing with her....she was offered counseling, therapy, paid leave, and frankly an ample amount of resources to help her cope with whatever her issue was. She refused all this.

Google obviously can't just make a blanket affirmation of believing women without risking a "hostile work environment" lawsuit from the male employees.

The problem IMO is that she genuinely believed that her identity as a woman was automatically a victim status and somehow entitled to unique privileges (I don't know how else to describe having one's claims believed simply for being a woman). The idea that one is harmed by the existence of opposing beliefs or opinions is ridiculous, as is thinking you're entitled to dictate your employer's position on matters of sexual harassment.

Obviously, that's a pretty extreme example of the effects of this kind of thinking that celebrates victimhood (Jussie Smollett is another) as an aspect of one's identity. Every time it happens though, I wonder how much damage this outlook is going to cause. The concern is that this younger generation has been so sheltered that they won't be able to handle difficult conflicts in the real world.

Seems like you enjoy cherry picking examples and then making a broad brush generalization to everyone as if their situations are the same as the one you speak of.

But then you also speak as if women have always been believed in their claims of sexual assault when that's not remotely based in fact historically.

Obviously we can bring up other issues that come up with, say, a white woman accusing a black man of raping or sexually assaulting her and being believed, but her status as a woman is not necessarily what is at issue here, but her being white and the alleged assaulter being black.

You can perceive that, but that isn't based in fact, it's based in more generalizations because of examples you think represent the majority rather than situations that have likely snowballed because of continued microaggressions, bullying and, worst of all, the administration doing little to nothing about it.

That's where we get these issues, the status quo being maintained so as not to rock the boat, which includes the idea that someone might be prejudiced against LGBTQ, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, various minority groups that white straight cis people have gotten away with insulting and marginalizing for centuries and are only recently in the last few decades being called to task for it.

 

[tall73]

Except the situation specifically is about a flag that is not divisive like it would be for that group, LGBTQ pride flag with the 6-8 colors is about diversity and celebrating that. How is such a thing to be construed in a negative way except by people who have prejudices against minorities that they feel threatened by them in some way?

That is your take, but he outlines that the flag says something about him that is parallel to a family photo. If it represents everyone how does it say something about him in the same way as the photo?

 

[SilverBear]

There is no need for LGBT propaganda in classrooms. What the teacher does in he own time is he business, but what he does in front of children becomes the parents' business. I would have raised cane as well. Teach, don't indoctrinate.

edit: His twitter page says it all

and there is no need for anti-LGBT propaganda anywhere

 

[muichimotsu]

So then there's no purpose in displaying the flag then? Even your explanation supports the assertion that it's propaganda.

No, there is purpose, but it is not strictly required in terms of a more open society that doesn't treat LGBTQ like freaks that need to be fixed. If that was the case, then the rainbow flag would be less needed, but still important in its own way, without being propaganda, unlike say the Confederate flag (the idea that states' rights are more important than civil order and that slavery was "normal")

I'm a parent of school aged children, and I am concerned about what my children are exposed to, and what my tax dollars are funding. Sexual orientation most certainly involves one's "sexuality" at the root of the identity; hence the word "sexual." I appreciate those who do not shove it into people's faces so arrogantly.

You know, if you're so concerned about the public schools indoctrinating, there are options. Or do you only care about the free market when it suits you?

Oh, you think someone merely saying that they are having these feelings and aren't sure what it means is being "arrogant"? Spoken as someone that's never had their sexual orientation questioned as being abnormal...more privilege that you insist you don't have

Never been good at painting...I do observe things, including trees and their fruits.

That's cute...need I bring up how religious officials across the board, especially in Catholic and Protestant groups, have a track record of pederasty and pedophilic abuse? Or does that hit too close to home to suggest that you're throwing stones in a glass house?

 

[muichimotsu]

That is your take, but he outlines that the flag says something about him that is parallel to a family photo. If it represents everyone how does it say something about him in the same way as the photo?

It isn't either/or. The flag can represent the teacher, but can also reflect that they support LGBTQ students, you can't take the photo in some broader fashion, it is primarily and solely about the individual and their family member/loved one.

 

[tall73]

It also has connotations in regards to gender identity, romantic attraction, etc, yet you fixate on the sex aspect...seems a little suspect...

None of those are necessary once you put up the sign "Everyone is Welcome." That means everyone. Nor did I sexualize anything, but responded that the school want to be neutral in regards to sexual orientation.

They likely want to be neutral in regards to gender identity, and the rest as well.

Yeah, because most people don't see straight people as "persecuted" and the other group is likely more considered a paraphilia and not a sexual orientation, so you're comparing either a disingenuous equivocation or a minority of a minority and expecting people to just know it in a world where the overload of information is palpable

No, if the flag is equivalent to a family photo then it says something about him. If saying something about yourself is OK, then a straight flag should be fine. A family photo does not say anything about persecution of course. So are they equivalent or not?

 

[tall73]

Because the straight pride movement is disingenuous in what pride means and the status of straight people in human culture as the norm meaning they are not remotely persecuted

They can be similar in the implications, but different in the specific content, don't oversimplify me via strawman

It "appears" to be that way when this wasn't about sexual orientation remotely as the focus, because LGBTQ, as I've already noted, doesn't just cover sexual orientation, but romantic orientation AND gender identity.

If it conveys information about persecuted groups it can't be equivalent to a family photo.

 

[tall73]

It isn't either/or. The flag can represent the teacher, but can also reflect that they support LGBTQ students, you can't take the photo in some broader fashion, it is primarily and solely about the individual and their family member/loved one.

Then they are not in fact equivalent, so there goes that defense.

Moreover, if the flag represents the teacher and LGBTQ students, that is different than representing everybody.

Once you have the "Everyone is Welcome" sign you don't need the other unless your purpose is to elaborate beyond everyone.

 

[SilverBear]

He already had a sign "Everyone is Welcome" that let people know everyone was welcome.

My noting that the pride flag has historical connotations related to sexual orientation is not turning that into something sexual.

you stated it is: objectum sexual pride
a sexual banners
marginalize objectum sexuals
sexual flag


you aren't talking about orientation you are talking about sex.

I provided the example of a heterosexual pride flag and an objectum sexual pride flag as parallels because they also have connotations (though less well known by far) relating to sexual orientation. And I wanted to see how the poster would treat those examples.

and you turned it into being about sex.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Because it's a microaggression

How is it a microaggression?

It's not even a positive or negative statement. It's not saying it's good to be white, it's not even saying it's bad to be white. It's just saying it's "ok".

It's completely devoid of any aggression at all. The only way I can see someone disagreeing with the statement is if they are racist against whites.

 

[tall73]

you stated it is: objectum sexual pride
a sexual banners
marginalize objectum sexuals
sexual flag


you aren't talking about orientation you are talking about sex.

No, I was addressing orientations. Objectum sexuals often indicate that it is an orientation. And some report feeling romantic feelings, and that the objects communicate with them.

So when I spoke of homosexual, heterosexual, objectum sexual, I was speaking of orientations.

 

[SilverBear]

Yeah. 80 million or so.

you seem to confused and are now talking about the last presidential election

Look, this is the group that supports tearing down flags and labeling those who don't racists.

Rob Ford Demands Olympic Rainbow Flag Be Taken Down
Couple told to take down Pride flag responds
Threatened with eviction for flying rainbow flag
Residents wanted to stop a town from flying the Pride flag.
Police commissioner ordered pride flag to be removed from a local restaurant.

I'm not seeing anyone being labeled a racist, homophobe maybe.

They make no complaint of people wearing masks assaulting people at right wing rallies.

Many people were upset when Heather Hayer was killed as such a rally

They just got a statue of Robert E Lee taken down last week...I don't recall a single discussion of the legitimacy of such actions.

discussion from who?

If you personally argued against this sort of thing in the past or even just openly doubted the wisdom of removing Confederate flags....just link the post and I'll admit that my statement doesn't apply to you.

Since you can't, let's not pretend your position on this is somehow ambiguous.

to do so would be a blatant lie.[/quote][/quote]

 

[SilverBear]

I already answered this. "Address" doesn't sound like a promise to protect feelings. If you want to quote the law....feel free.



Pretty sure I was talking about students upset over the lack of a flag. I stand by that assessment.

If you would like to quote students on how they are upset over the lack of a flag...feel free

 

[SilverBear]

In some situations yes. I'm not alone on this either. There's a growing belief amongst psychologists that parents who are overly concerned with protecting their children are creating an extremely fragile, self absorbed, and pathetic generation of people who are unable to cope with reality.

The Fragile Generation

At some point, everyone has to deal with conflict and people who don't like them. It doesn't seem like 20 years old is the first time that should happen.

Like how parents wanted the rainbow flag out of the classroom.

 

[SilverBear]

Well I don't think teachers should be assaulting, threatening, or bullying students. That applies to all students though...not just the gay ones.

but they are and they are doing it to LGBT students....But of course any student dares to be bothered by this is "whiny" and needs psychiatric help