The Problem of Evil/Suffering

[andreha]

Here are some of my thoughts on the questions from the OP.

God is Almighty, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. Evil exists because God allows it to exist. He is fully able to destroy it in an instant. But He chooses to allow it, to a certain extent anyway. And there are reasons for it. Yes, evil things happen to people, and certainly not only to "bad" people. And people ask, but why?

So, I've been a Christian for 44 years, and certainly don't know everything - no human does. But, I have started seeing a pattern. God allows evil, yes. But why? See, God is loving, but He is also fair. He never plays favorites. So where is the difference? It lies in this. It lies in what you freely choose to do when evil strikes. Do you blame God, and turn your back on him, like a spoilt brat child? Or do you keep faithful, through thick and thin. And you know what? If you choose to remain faithful, He will bless you for that. And the next time, if evil strikes again, you again have the choice. So, if you continue in faith and obedience, He will continue rewarding you for obedience. So, I'm far from perfect, but do try to follow His will and remain faithful. Has my life changed? Yes, heck yes - for the better. It hasn't been easy, because I have gone through some really hard trials. I came very close to committing suicide a long time ago. But, He stopped me from going through with it at the very last second. Since then, I've grown a whole lot, and later on, was able to help people with the same struggles.

Some people see life as a repeated process of good and bad, like a circle. And yes, it does sometime feel like that. But, what we must remember, is that life is more of a spiral. If we remain faithful, we carry on spiraling upward, and if we choose to blame Him for everything, we shouldn't be surprised if life continues in a downward spiral. That is the part that evil plays. God seeks fair reasons to bless His children. And by allowing some degree of evil influence, He tests us. And if we choose to remain faithful, He'll reward us.

And if someone had to ask me something like "Why did God allow that little baby to be murdered? I don't know. I'm not a Christian because I'm perfect, but rather because I know I'm far from perfect. I can only testify from my own walk with God, that If you choose obedience and keep the faith, you'll get to a point in life where you'll start appreciating His goodness. Some examples can be found here and here to name but a few.

 

[Halbhh]

The idea of "free will" takes God's control of the universe and makes it contingent on what people might or might not do.

If you would please read my post, then you would see very specifically how our freedom of action won't stop God's plans. I think you'd be happy or pleased actually to read it to the end.

 

[Dave L]

If you would please read my post, then you would see very specifically how our freedom of action won't stop God's plans. I think you'd be happy or pleased actually to read it to the end.

Free will usurps God's control of the creation and makes it depend on what you might or might not do.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Free will usurps God's control of the creation and makes it depend on what you might or might not do.

I believe God wants free will creatures Choosing to acknowledge His love, and ways, responding to His call.

We see in Genisis that God does not control everything:

Gen 6:5-7 And the Lord saw that the sin of man was great on the earth, and that all the thoughts of his heart were evil. And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart. And the Lord said, I will take away man, whom I have made, from the face of the earth, even man and beast and that which goes on the earth and every bird of the air; for I have sorrow for having made them.

Why would God sorrow, over something that He controlled? Before He created man, the LORD had hope for creation, that they would respond to love, and show His brotherly kindness. He willed to make man in hope. He planned the cross in hope. He set in motion the creation and positive plans for His creatures, yet they did not respond how he had hoped, despairing at "the sin of man [that] was great on the earth, ... that all the thoughts of his heart were evil".

I do believe that God has put constraints on evil. One such constraint occurred in Genisis, where God gave man shorter life spans:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

God is in control of situations, by His power He can alter the course of history.

 

[Dave L]

I believe God wants free will creatures Choosing to acknowledge His love, and ways, responding to His call.

We see in Genisis that God does not control everything:

Gen 6:5-7 And the Lord saw that the sin of man was great on the earth, and that all the thoughts of his heart were evil. And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart. And the Lord said, I will take away man, whom I have made, from the face of the earth, even man and beast and that which goes on the earth and every bird of the air; for I have sorrow for having made them.

Why would God sorrow, over something that He controlled? Before He created man, the LORD had hope for creation, that they would respond to love, and show His brotherly kindness. He willed to make man in hope. He planned the cross in hope. He set in motion the creation and positive plans for His creatures, yet they did not respond how he had hoped, despairing at "the sin of man [that] was great on the earth, ... that all the thoughts of his heart were evil".

I do believe that God has put constraints on evil. One such constraint occurred in Genisis, where God gave man shorter life spans:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

God is in control of situations, by His power He can alter the course of history.

Scripture does not teach your sentiments. Free will has no place if God controls all, which He does.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Scripture does not teach your sentiments. Free will has no place if God controls all, which He does.

If God,

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Evil is not God's will? He does not cause it, or will it.

Evil occurs outside God's will. It is an action that God does not will.

Why do you overlook Genisis when it is as plain as the nose on your face, standing as a bastion of free will. Again:

Gen 6:5-7 And the Lord saw that the sin of man was great on the earth, and that all the thoughts of his heart were evil. And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart. And the Lord said, I will take away man, whom I have made, from the face of the earth, even man and beast and that which goes on the earth and every bird of the air; for I have sorrow for having made them.

The verse in Genisis explains a lot about God's nature and the nature of sin.

 

[Dave L]

If God,

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Evil is not God's will? He does not cause it, or will it.

Evil occurs outside God's will. It is an action that God does not will.

Why do you overlook Genisis when it is as plain as the nose on your face, standing as a bastion of free will. Again:

Gen 6:5-7 And the Lord saw that the sin of man was great on the earth, and that all the thoughts of his heart were evil. And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart. And the Lord said, I will take away man, whom I have made, from the face of the earth, even man and beast and that which goes on the earth and every bird of the air; for I have sorrow for having made them.

The verse in Genisis explains a lot about God's nature and the nature of sin.

Why pray "lead us not into temptation if God does not do this? Read the Old Testament to get a balanced view of God. There He turns people into cannibals many times.

 

[Halbhh]

Free will usurps God's control of the creation and makes it depend on what you might or might not do.

Nothing -- no power on Earth or in Heaven -- nothing anywhere ever...could ever 'usurp' God's ultimate control over creation.

Right?

After all, He is able to do the 'impossible'.

So, for instance you could try to kill yourself.... and if God decided it's not time for you to die, then you will not die. The attempt will be stopped, reversed, canceled, or failed....

Even though you tried and were entirely capable.

You can't if He won't let you.

I know this from direct experience from when I was very young, and had an supernatural intervention that saved my life.

You do have free will -- you do decide and act on whatever you choose -- but God is still in control.

Now does it make more sense?

I asked you to read that post you responded to, and if you do (the last section), then it will make even more sense: you'll see it in scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Nothing -- no power on Earth or in Heaven -- nothing anywhere ever...could ever 'usurp' God's ultimate control over creation.

Right?

After all, He is able to do the 'impossible'.

So, for instance you could try to kill yourself.... and if God decided it's not time for you to die, then you will not die. The attempt will be stopped, reversed, canceled, or failed....

Even though you tried and were entirely capable.

You can't if He won't let you.

I know this from direct experience from when I was very young, and had an supernatural intervention that saved my life.

You do have free will -- you do decide and act on whatever you choose -- but God is still in control.

Now does it make more sense?

I asked you to read that post you responded to, and if you do (the last section), then it will make even more sense: you'll see it in scripture.

Free will teaches God's decree is contingent on what you might or might not do.

 

[Halbhh]

Free will teaches God's decree is contingent on what you might or might not do.

Wow, that's radically different than what I think of 'free will' as being.

I've thought we are to some extent merely using terms differently.

I think of "free will" similar to the common definition:

Free will: "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion." -- Oxford Languages

(notice that doesn't mean what you try to do will happen! You might try to do something and it fails)

The main reason the idea of "free will" was developed was in order to answer the important question that some have about whether God controls all that we do.

The situation of an absence of free will would mean all that you can't willingly choose anything, not even repentance, but that it is just happening without your choice.

And that situation would make a lot of the instructions in the Bible nonsensical really if you look at the wordings:

“And if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle...."
...
15“But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field...."

See?

Is the text the Words from God? If so, God says "If you keep my commands, then I will...."

Like this:

John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. -- Christ our Savior

(He soon explains the only way we can keep his commandments is to abide in Him, dwell in Him, abide on the Vine, Himself)

 

[Dave L]

Wow, that's radically different than what I think of 'free will' as being.

I've thought we are to some extent merely using terms differently.

I think of "free will" similar to the common definition:

Free will: "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion." -- Oxford Languages

(notice that doesn't mean what you try to do will happen! You might try to do something and it fails)

The main reason the idea of "free will" was developed was in order to answer the important question that some have about whether God controls all that we do.

The situation of an absence of free will would mean all that you can't willingly choose anything, not even repentance, but that it is just happening without your choice.

And that situation would make a lot of the instructions in the Bible nonsensical really if you look at the wordings:

“And if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle...."
...
15“But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field...."

See?

Is the text the Words from God? If so, God says "If you keep my commands, then I will...."

Like this:

John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. -- Christ our Savior

(He soon explains the only way we can keep his commandments is to abide in Him, dwell in Him, abide on the Vine, Himself)

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900)

God fails in controlling the universe if anyone has free will. They control Him.

 

[Halbhh]

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900)

God fails in controlling the universe if anyone has free will. They control Him.

Really, friend, you just have a non standard way of using the term 'free will' it seems, or else you might be underestimating what God can do, one or the other.

But there is a lot of people using words differently and not understanding just what someone else is saying, I know! So, I don't even assume our views are much different, heh heh.

 

[Dave L]

Really, friend, you just have a non standard way of using the term 'free will' it seems, or else you might be underestimating what God can do, one or the other.

God causes you to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives you the reason you base every choice on. You think you freely choose, and that involves you in the guilt or blessing. But you always choose what He determined you would choose.

 

[Halbhh]

God causes you to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives you the reason you base every choice on.

These 2 sentences are correct, and it's more clear now you merely have different ways of using words.

And we have free will.

"Free will" isn't that God can't help us, change us, guide us! Free will basically means that God made us like Himself -- able to think, act and choose.

Basically, scripture isn't just for show, but it's quite real and effective.

When Christ gave a 'command' -- He means it. So, the surprising and sharp things said in Matthew chapter 7 are for real.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Why pray "lead us not into temptation if God does not do this? Read the Old Testament to get a balanced view of God. There He turns people into cannibals many times.

This scripture has nothing to do with "God" leading us into temptation. It is talking about leading us safely away from the temptations of the flesh and the devil. Again:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

[zippy2006]

One potential way around this consideration is to suggest that those who enter into the new earth have been conformed to Christ, i.e., they no longer desire to pursue that which is evil. If this is true, then why not conform humanity now? Why wait hundreds of thousands of years? It would appear that this solution to the problem of evil/suffering does not actually solve all that much for us. Either the desirability of free will is called into question by the biblical narratives of other possible worlds or the motives of a loving God still remain shrouded in secrecy.

After reading your post earlier today I made a simple note to myself, "One becomes good, they are not made good."

Without free will we cannot be conformed to Christ in a way that involves real agency on our part. Being conformed cannot happen by God snapping his fingers and making us into perfect beings (or something). Cooperation is essential.

You might think this describes a gutted God, but this solution does have some power behind it. Suffering and evil is accounted for.

How so? You have accounted for God's failure to prevent evil, but you have not accounted for evil itself. I assume you would appeal to free will for that.

It seems to me that Open Theism "solves" the problem of evil by getting rid of God, for on atheism there is no problem of evil. Perhaps this is tongue-in-cheek, but it's surely not far off. The Open Theist is talking about an individual being that is not omnipotent, omniscient, or atemporal, and to riff on Aquinas, "No one understands this to be God."

 

[Dave L]

This scripture has nothing to do with "God" leading us into temptation. It is talking about leading us safely away from the temptations of the flesh and the devil. Again:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

So God doesn't do what scripture says he does? Have you considered this passage that says he leads people into sin?

“And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:19–23 (KJV 1900)


““ ‘And if a prophet is deceived into giving a message, it is because I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet. I will lift my fist against such prophets and cut them off from the community of Israel. False prophets and those who seek their guidance will all be punished for their sins. In this way, the people of Israel will learn not to stray from me, polluting themselves with sin. They will be my people, and I will be their God. I, the Sovereign LORD, have spoken!’ ”” Ezekiel 14:9–11 (NLT)

God uses false prophets

 

[Dave L]

These 2 sentences are correct, and it's more clear now you merely have different ways of using words.

And we have free will.

"Free will" isn't that God can't help us, change us, guide us! Free will basically means that God made us like Himself -- able to think, act and choose.

Basically, scripture isn't just for show, but it's quite real and effective.

When Christ gave a 'command' -- He means it. So, the surprising and sharp things said in Matthew chapter 7 are for real.

How can you have free will if God works in you to will?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So God doesn't do what scripture says he does? Have you considered this passage that says he leads people into sin?

“And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:19–23 (KJV 1900)


““ ‘And if a prophet is deceived into giving a message, it is because I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet. I will lift my fist against such prophets and cut them off from the community of Israel. False prophets and those who seek their guidance will all be punished for their sins. In this way, the people of Israel will learn not to stray from me, polluting themselves with sin. They will be my people, and I will be their God. I, the Sovereign LORD, have spoken!’ ”” Ezekiel 14:9–11 (NLT)

God uses false prophets

Ahab was an evil man, his prophets were also false, not being prophets of the LORD. All the LORD did was make his false prophets tell Ahab he would be successful, so God could pour out a righteous judgment. In this, God did not sin.

God does not sin or desire it. As the Bible says He neither "tempts" nor is "tempted" by evil.

Why are you so opposed to the idea that God might actually want free will.

 

[Dave L]

Ahab was an evil man, his prophets were also false, not being prophets of the LORD. All the LORD did was make his false prophets tell Ahab he would be successful, so God could pour out a righteous judgment. In this, God did not sin.

God does not sin or desire it. As the Bible says He neither "tempts" nor is "tempted" by evil.

Why are you so opposed to the idea that God might actually want free will.

God cannot sin. He is not sinning when he causes people to sin. How many did He turn into Cannibals in the OT?