The Two Witnesses

[Timtofly]

Good, I was going to go into Zechariah 4 if I didn't see it mentioned. I'm of the mind that the bible explains its own symbols if they are symbols somewhere and Zechariah identifies the two olive trees.

I had not thought of the fact that there are 2 pairs though 2 olive trees being 1 witness and 2 candlesticks being the other witnesses. That's quite a catch

Now as to identifying the 2 in each group.

Zechariah 4:14


Now, Elijah is a guarantee, as that's Malachi that names him outright, and the other one is usually either Moses or Enoch are the most common theories. and I've seen people say Moses representing the law, and Elijah representing the prophets, and while that's true....
it's actually even simpler than that.

Matthew 17:1-3


They are the prophets who stood next to the Lord of the whole earth.


Now.. the 2 churches.

This is more speculation but my theory is that only 2 of the churches that Jesus instructed John to write to in Revelation 1-3 were not rebuked by Jesus, they were only encouraged. Smyrna, and Philadelphia.
Smyrna is the church that goes through tribulation and are made martyrs. Philadelphia is the faithful church. Neither are Rebuked, both are offered encouragement to just stay the course.
Now I don't hold to the church ages theory for the letters to the churches, or that it was ONLY to specific 1st century churches historically.
I hold that it is more or less types of churches, maybe even specifically in the last days churches, because Jesus threatens the Church of Thyatira with Great Tribulation. That is an empty threat unless this has end times meaning.
So a Church that is persecuted and martyred, and a Church that does not stray from the true gospel and keeps an open door (when others might be shutting down).
Again, this part is speculation unless someone has a better theory.

If the two olive trees were individuals why not the two candlesticks? John is obviously a witness, he wrote it all down while it was happening. But most do not see John as they see Elijah, who has returned, because going back in time from the present seems too complicated for God, or at least too complicated for most humans today, because they just ignore it like sci-fi.

Can God not bring John forward to be a witness and then send him back to deliver the message? Why is Elijah said to come and go without issue? Is moving back in time more complicated than moving forward in time to God? How can these 4 be a witness of the whole creation, meaning all time, if they are humans born at different times on earth? That part there is the hardest to accept.

It makes sense that Enoch was there for most of time, but Moses was not born until later, but was given the charge to witness and record from even before the time Enoch was born. If Moses bore witness to the beginning of creation, and wrote it down, why cannot John, the author of Revelation, bare witness to the end of creation?

 

[Jamdoc]

If the two olive trees were individuals why not the two candlesticks? John is obviously a witness, he wrote it all down while it was happening. But most do not see John as they see Elijah, who has returned, because going back in time from the present seems too complicated for God, or at least too complicated for most humans today, because they just ignore it like sci-fi.

Because the bible explains its own symbols.
Revelation 11

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

So where are the 2 Olive trees? Zechariah 4

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

So the 2 Olive trees are 2 annointed ones that stood next to the Lord of the whole earth. As we have seen, on the Mount of Transfiguration, those 2 annointed ones were Moses and Elijah.

What about the candlesticks? Revelation 1 explains what candlesticks are representing.

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

There's no need to guess when the bible tells you itself. The only thing to guess is the identity of which 2 churches and whether He means the literal 1st century Churches, or a "type" end times Church, and whether those 2 are indeed a Church like Smyrna that is persecuted, and a Church like Philadelphia that is faithful and kept from harm. Notice it is these 2 letters that both mention the Synagogue of Satan. For Smyrna, they're overcome by them and martyred. For Philadelphia, the Synagogue of Satan kneels at their feet, Philadelphia overcomes them.
But as for the candlesticks being individuals? No. Because the bible says what the candlesticks represent, it's churches.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I agree certainly not all.

But this is what it says in John1.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

My point was that Romans 11 refers to individuals being broken off and individuals being grafted in. You read it as if the entire nation of Israel was broken off. That's not the case.

 

[TribulationSigns]

My point was that Romans 11 refers to individuals being broken off and individuals being grafted in. You read it as if the entire nation of Israel was broken off. That's not the case.

Agreed.

 

[Timtofly]

Because the bible explains its own symbols.
Revelation 11


So where are the 2 Olive trees? Zechariah 4

So the 2 Olive trees are 2 annointed ones that stood next to the Lord of the whole earth. As we have seen, on the Mount of Transfiguration, those 2 annointed ones were Moses and Elijah.

What about the candlesticks? Revelation 1 explains what candlesticks are representing.

There's no need to guess when the bible tells you itself. The only thing to guess is the identity of which 2 churches and whether He means the literal 1st century Churches, or a "type" end times Church, and whether those 2 are indeed a Church like Smyrna that is persecuted, and a Church like Philadelphia that is faithful and kept from harm. Notice it is these 2 letters that both mention the Synagogue of Satan. For Smyrna, they're overcome by them and martyred. For Philadelphia, the Synagogue of Satan kneels at their feet, Philadelphia overcomes them.
But as for the candlesticks being individuals? No. Because the bible says what the candlesticks represent, it's churches.

And the olive tree represents Israel to many, instead of two individuals. You just can't say there were only two individuals in the OT, and then thousands in the NT. You would have to say thousands in the OT as well.

 

[Jamdoc]

And the olive tree represents Israel to many, instead of two individuals. You just can't say there were only two individuals in the OT, and then thousands in the NT. You would have to say thousands in the OT as well.

But that's not what Zechariah 4 says. Zechariah 4 specifies 2 annointed ones (prophets)
Matthew 17 shows, 2 specific Prophets standing next to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration.
the disciples would have been familiar with Zechariah, and probably had some idea of who the two prophets would be, since they instantly recognized them.
It would be a sign that Jesus was who He claimed to be.

The bible explains it's own symbols. You don't have to guess what they mean

 

[Timtofly]

But that's not what Zechariah 4 says. Zechariah 4 specifies 2 annointed ones (prophets)
Matthew 17 shows, 2 specific Prophets standing next to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration.
the disciples would have been familiar with Zechariah, and probably had some idea of who the two prophets would be, since they instantly recognized them.
It would be a sign that Jesus was who He claimed to be.

The bible explains it's own symbols. You don't have to guess what they mean

John also claims two individuals. Equal to the two Olive Trees. There are not thousands. They represent the church, just like the two witnesses represent the OT congregation.

 

[Jamdoc]

John also claims two individuals. Equal to the two Olive Trees. There are not thousands. They represent the church, just like the two witnesses represent the OT congregation.

Where?
cite scripture when you make a claim like that.

 

[Timtofly]

Where?
cite scripture when you make a claim like that.

The same Scripture you try to symbolize. Revelation 11.

 

[Jamdoc]

The same Scripture you try to symbolize. Revelation 11.

and it's been shown what those 2 symbols are.
2 Olive Trees for 2 individual annointed ones
and 2 Candlesticks which are 2 churches.

They're not both symbolizing churches, nor both symbolizing individuals.
there are 2 different symbols, and using the bible to explain its own symbols, each symbol is a different thing.

 

[Timtofly]

and it's been shown what those 2 symbols are.
2 Olive Trees for 2 individual annointed ones
and 2 Candlesticks which are 2 churches.

They're not both symbolizing churches, nor both symbolizing individuals.
there are 2 different symbols, and using the bible to explain its own symbols, each symbol is a different thing.

There is only one church. There are two individuals representative of the church. Why would 2 distinct congregations slip past the 144k? When all the rest of the churches are raptured at the Second Coming? You are not equating the symbolism. The Two Olive Trees are not the Law and Prophets, neither are there two distinct church congregations representing God those last 42 months. Those witnesses have been before God longer than two distinct congregations somewhere on earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is only one church. There are two individuals representative of the church. Why would 2 distinct congregations slip past the 144k? When all the rest of the churches are raptured at the Second Coming? You are not equating the symbolism. The Two Olive Trees are not the Law and Prophets, neither are there two distinct church congregations representing God those last 42 months. Those witnesses have been before God longer than two distinct congregations somewhere on earth.

Because you completely misunderstand scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

This is more speculation but my theory is that only 2 of the churches that Jesus instructed John to write to in Revelation 1-3 were not rebuked by Jesus, they were only encouraged. Smyrna, and Philadelphia.

Yes, they are most likely the two candlestick churches of the two witnesses.

Another interesting thing about them is one earning a crown of life, while the other is warned not to lose the crown they already have.

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Because you completely misunderstand scripture.

No, it's you who misunderstand Scripture.

As illustrated spiritually when the Glory of God came upon Christ when He talked with Moses and Elijah, representations of the "law and the prophet" in the Old Testament tabernacle body. These types are FULFILLED in the body of Christ, the New Testament Tabernacles where Two Witnesses (Christians) are empowered with the Holy Spirit testifying to this.

Matthew 17:4-5

• "Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
• While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him!"

For example, there is "ONE" tabernacle of the Church body, and it is Christ. The types are now passed away, and they could have no more prophetic significance after Christ died. We look towards the spiritual, not the earthly or physical. Nor two men! The Olive Trees and Two Candlesticks represent the body of Christ from the Old and New Testament seen by God as The Two Witnesses! Not two men but spiritually representing many in Christ as his Witnesses. The number two in Scripture signify for agreement, and by implication truth. Therefore God has empowered His witnesses with Holy Spirit for they are the pillar and ground of the Truth, 1st Timothy 3:15. They are the Lord's faithful witnesses who bear testimony to the Truth. Therefore, are they spoken of as "two" witnesses, signifying that they come with the Truth, Selah. You need to compare Scripture:

Rev 11:3-4
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Not two men, but many witnesses! They are seen by God as "Two" Witnesses who were sent by God with the power of the Holy SPirit to preach GOSPEL TRUTH! Because they are witnesses coming with Truth which is what number two signifies. Just as Christ sending seventies witnesses out two by two that has spiritual signification!

Selah!

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, they are most likely the two candlestick churches of the two witnesses.

Another interesting thing about them is one earning a crown of life, while the other is warned not to lose the crown they already have.

That is an interesting thing to notice
Matthew 16:24-25..

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

That's what pointing out that those from Smyrna who are only promised the crown after they die for Jesus' sake reminds me of.. but what does it mean the difference between Smyrna and Philadelphia?
I would imagine both are saved. If you are willing to lay down your life for Jesus you must have faith in Him.

Is it perhaps that they both have eternal life waiting for them, and in dying as a Martyr they're just receiving what they already were promised and believed in? Also the idea that Philadelphia can actually lose their crown is troubling for eternal security.

How are those churches separated which one is which and why are some going through tribulation and martyrdom and why are some spared?

and the other churches.. I mean yes these were 1st century Churches.. but the way it sounds is very end times relevant. Constant warnings that He'll come quickly and they won't be prepared, and a threat to throw 1 church into Great Tribulation.
But how does it pan out, is it types of believers as individuals? Doesn't seem consistent because there is always a promise for individuals to be spared, particularly in Thyatira and Sardis.

So it's most likely Church "types".. but sometimes it's hard to nail down what that type would be and what would be the characteristics of it.

Ephesus: Is it a lack of evangelism?
Smyrna: Persecuted and martyred, they seem to be fine as long as they can keep courage.
Pergamos: bad doctrine
Thyatira: also bad doctrine, preached by a woman, I have trouble understanding what the difference of the two would be (outside of geographic location of the original 1st century churches, and that one is taught by a woman)
Both Pergamos and Thyatira specify fornication (which spiritually would be worshiping other Gods, which could be as little as there's a growing trend that even among "born again" Christians, many believe that Muhammad and Buddha are equally viable ways to heaven). Eating things sacrificed to idols also seems along that same line, could be wrong though.
Sardis: almost seems like the biggest problem with them is that they're not watching for the Lord. This can happen from people who avoid prophecy, or are preterists or post millennial. They're not watching.
Philadelphia: seems like nothing wrong with them and they just need to keep the course
Laodicea: These seem almost like just "cultural Christians" but not actually in the faith.

anyway it seems like Church types in the end times, but I don't really know how to distinguish which is which and can really only guess.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hello All

There is more to these witnesses then meets the eyes. You have to understand the Two Houses. That of Judah and that of the House of Israel /Jacob / Ephraim.

The Jews in Modern Israel are just that the House of Judah they are not the house of Israel.

Once you understand this then you have to understand what Jesus meant here

[43] Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits.

There he calls it a Nation which also means a People.

and then here

[38] Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.

What does he mean your House......

So when Jesus says he is taken away from the House of Judah and giving it to another house/ people /nation. he means he is giving it to the House of Israel.

Didn't Paul get sent to the Gentiles ...well sort of he was sent to those who thought themselves as Gentiles. You see this truth sprinkled through out Paul's Letters. Paul clearly understood this.

Do not be ignorant of the Truth....These are Paul's words not mine. The Church at Corinth

10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Here Paul clearly tells the Gentiles at the Church at Corinth that they are in fact from the lost tribes of the House of Israel.

In Romans he does it again. Most see Romans 11 as just one Olive Tree but in fact there are Two Olive Trees. The Good Olive Tree and the Wild Olive Tree

[24] For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The fact he calls them a wild Olive Tree shows he is talking about The House of Israel. Why you ask does this show that because that is what God said the House of Israel would become in its wanderings from 715BC. A wild House not knowing who they were. Forgetting their Heritage and their God.

So we all know Christians bear good fruit there are literally dozens of verses saying it if you want I can post them all. Here is one

[17] But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity.

And Another

[23] As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

Now we all know who the root is

"Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals"

Christians take this root

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

So what about the lost house of Israel .God knew who they were and he had a plan for the House of Israel and that plan was

[6] In days to come Jacob shall take root, Israel shall blossom and put forth shoots, and fill the whole world with fruit.

So the House of Israel will Take Jesus and fill the world with fruit

Who fills the world with fruit Christians Who fill the world with Fruit ..the HOUSE OF ISRAEL SAYS GOD.

[24] He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

DO NOT BE IGNORANT