God is a God of Reason: Why Calvinism Fails

[Mark Quayle]

Lol, only that's not Christianity. Deism maybe.

"Let us make man in our image"

 

[Mark Quayle]

His prayers are just another cog in the wheel. He is just a pawn. They actually don't affect God in any way. In fact, essentially, it's God talking to himself.

But God is affected, but it is not from outside himself. Our prayers are caused, and motivated by, the Spirit of God, just as is every good thing we do —repentance, faith, obedience etc.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well I seem to remember you saying free will was a thing. It's nice that you are finally copping to be a total determinist ie hyper Calvinist.

I'm not a hyper-Calvinist, btw. I don't believe anyone can sin without regard to consequences, but rather that the elect will not continue in sin. I do not believe that anyone God regenerates is not of the elect, and not secure (not at all referring to feeling secure), but that security is by God, and not automatic, but that the elect will not finally fall away.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Nope. A sovereign God has no obligation to cause our choices. And the rest is just flawed logic.

True that Sovereign God has no obligation at all, but from our pov. The fact is, he does cause our choices, or he is not First Cause, and not God.

Show how "the rest is just flawed logic."

 

[Mark Quayle]

What do you mean by natural? In a world where God does everything how can anything be natural?
In such a world everything is directly caused by God, so there's no other causes.

"In a world where God does everything", HOW does he do everything? —Through means, for the most part. The 'natural' chain of cause and effect. Among those effects that are also causes are the choices of moral agents.

 

[renniks]

is at the CORE of our biggest problem, the same problem Satan had— pride, attempted independence from God. Self-determination.

You can't see the irony? If we have no self determination, we cannot rebel against anything. We can only follow our programming.
You are still embracing a contradiction.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You can't see the irony? If we have no self determination, we cannot rebel against anything. We can only follow our programming.
You are still embracing a contradiction.

Do we not will? Even if our will is caused by God, it is ours, and we are responsible for what we choose to do with it. It is not free, it is encumbered and influenced by many things. But we do choose.

The contradiction is to think it can be uncaused. Even your own statement, that it is given by God (who knows the beginning from the end, and still gave it to you), shows it is caused.

 

[renniks]

But God is affected, but it is not from outside himself. Our prayers are caused, and motivated by, the Spirit of God, just as is every good thing we do —repentance, faith, obedience etc.

Influenced, not caused. Just as our sin is influenced by the enemy.

 

[renniks]

True that Sovereign God has no obligation at all, but from our pov. The fact is, he does cause our choices, or he is not First Cause, and not God.

Show how "the rest is just flawed logic."

I don't know where you got this logic but it's not biblical logic.
"The only thing the Arminian view of God’s sovereignty necessarily excludes is God’s authorship of sin and evil....Nothing at all can happen without God’s permission...
(Rogor Olson)
See the difference between permission and causing?

So we know what we are debating:
In the Calvinistic view, sovereignty means meticulous control (i.e., theological determinism), while in the Arminian view, God’s sovereignty necessarily means His complete freedom and authority (or right) to act any way He so wills.

Again, see the difference?
Now I can go into the human logic in all this but that's not important.
What's important is that biblically God doesn't author evil.
Arminian theologians Jerry Walls and Joseph Dongell;

“NOTE that God is no less sovereign in a world where he chooses to grant his creatures libertarian freedom than he is in a world where he determines everything. Sovereignty cannot simply be equated with meticulous control. Rather, sovereignty is the freedom to choose as one will and to accomplish one’s purposes. If God chooses to create people who are free and to accomplish his purposes through their undetermined choices, it is his sovereign right to do so. Less control is not the same as less sovereignty if God chooses to have less control. A perfectly good and wise God will exercise just the amount of control appropriate for the sort of world he chooses to create.” 7

 

[renniks]

Do we not will? Even if our will is caused by God, it is ours,

Beep! Beep!
Direct contradiction alert!

You can not have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Beep! Beep!
Direct contradiction alert!

You can not have your cake and eat it too.

God can have his cake and eat it too. You cannot.

Edit: You did not show the contradiction.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't know where you got this logic but it's not biblical logic.
"The only thing the Arminian view of God’s sovereignty necessarily excludes is God’s authorship of sin and evil....Nothing at all can happen without God’s permission...
(Rogor Olson)
See the difference between permission and causing?

So we know what we are debating:
In the Calvinistic view, sovereignty means meticulous control (i.e., theological determinism), while in the Arminian view, God’s sovereignty necessarily means His complete freedom and authority (or right) to act any way He so wills.

Again, see the difference?
Now I can go into the human logic in all this but that's not important.
What's important is that biblically God doesn't author evil.
Arminian theologians Jerry Walls and Joseph Dongell;

“NOTE that God is no less sovereign in a world where he chooses to grant his creatures libertarian freedom than he is in a world where he determines everything. Sovereignty cannot simply be equated with meticulous control. Rather, sovereignty is the freedom to choose as one will and to accomplish one’s purposes. If God chooses to create people who are free and to accomplish his purposes through their undetermined choices, it is his sovereign right to do so. Less control is not the same as less sovereignty if God chooses to have less control. A perfectly good and wise God will exercise just the amount of control appropriate for the sort of world he chooses to create.” 7

Oh, no doubt I see a difference. But it isn't what you state. You (the quotes) misrepresent the Calvinist position, (for that matter, by the same method —if they present what they think is logically implied by the Calvinist statements— I can do the same with Arminian statements.)

They say the only thing the Arminian denies ("necessarily excludes") is God's authorship of sin and evil. That is not true. Arminianism denies God's sovereignty, omnipotence and wisdom. Arminianism denies the inability of fallen unregenerate man to of-himself choose to do good. Arminianism denies Romans 8:7,8.

You imply by your 'difference' that Calvinism denies God's "complete freedom and authority (or right) to act any way He so wills." It is Arminianism that halts God until man chooses. God must react to man, in your construction. God cannot, according to your theology, do just "any way he so wills".

Of course I see the difference between granting permission and causing! You think there is something God does not cause, because to you, it cannot be both God and Man choosing, (or even God and anything else, I suppose...)

Do you believe that were God to withdraw his hand of sustenance of all things, the whole structure we refer to as 'universe', and all its physical laws, and all spiritual realms, would cease to exist —to even have existed? Think of the implications. God needn't wait to see what we will do before making his plans.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Influenced, not caused. Just as our sin is influenced by the enemy.

Lessee then, Influence is not one of the causes? I thought you were saying our choices are uncaused.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Lol, that's some kind of gooblygook reasoning.
Because this happened, that could not have happened? Prove it. It just assumes we are in a deterministic universe where everyone and everything is fated. You have given no evidence that's the case.

Exactly, because God created the universe that determined that rocky road is my favorite ice cream?

 

[BNR32FAN]

They are punished for their sin. Not for failing to meet impossible expectations. Does God not look on the heart to judge the deeds?

Ive already pointed out that sin is not the determining factor for condemnation, refusal to repent is the determining factor. Both you and Hammster are saying that repentance is impossible unless God has enabled the person to repent. So yes according to you and Hammster it is for failure to meet an impossible expectation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ive already pointed out that sin is not the determining factor for condemnation, refusal to repent is the determining factor. Both you and Hammster are saying that repentance is impossible unless God has enabled the person to repent. So yes according to you and Hammster it is for failure to meet an impossible expectation.

You still go with this notion that if God makes a thing sure, that it is therefore going to be automatic. You say if Calvinism, then no need to obey. You say if God must enable someone to repent, i.e. if that person cannot repent on their own, they are condemned for failure to meet an impossible expectation. No. They are condemned because of their sin. They are not saved because they did not believe on the Son, because they are at enmity with God.

You seem to think you are simplifying things when you jump past the means to the end. Your logic is representative of that kind of thinking. You represent Calvinism with such notions as, if God decides, man is not to blame.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your own words tell on you! If he is acting in the Spirit, is that by his own motivation, or God's?

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to personswho oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all goodthings, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

 

[BNR32FAN]

You still go with this notion that if God makes a thing sure, that it is therefore going to be automatic. You say if Calvinism, then no need to obey.

No I haven’t said that at all.

They are not saved because they did not believe on the Son, because they are at enmity with God.

But why did they not believe? Is it because they chose not to believe or is it because God did not enable them to believe? That is the root of the discussion here.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God isn't helpless. People don't stop him. Jonah tried and God won.

God's patience and kindness can last more that thirty years.

But by their stubbornness and unrepentant heart they are storing up for themselves the righteous judgement and wrath of God on judgement day. If they are destined to repent then they cannot be building up God’s wrath on judgement day, can they?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus is asserting His authority right now. In case you missed it, the kingdom is growing just as He said in Matthew 13. I’d rather advocate for His authority than for Satan.

Jesus specifically said to Pontus Pilot “My Kingdom is not of this world”.