Purgatory

[Valletta]

LOL!!!!
The Catholic church, in its struggle to find anything in the Bible to support its Purgatory teaching has reached down to the lowest possible place.......deception.

When ANYONE reads 1 Corinthians 3, it is clearly seen that The context speaks of Paul having planted the Corinthian church, and that another person was building upon that work: verse 6 says, “I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.” Paul goes on to say that unless a person builds upon the foundation of Jesus, his work will be burned up the in the day of judgment (v. 13). See also, 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14; 1 Thess. 5:2).

Paul is simply using the terms that are familiar to the people of the time. The fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted–the dross. So, too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.

1 Cor. 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on “that day.” Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.

STUDY to shoe thy self approved of God, a workman!

It's a matter of having a civil conversation. Hebrews 12:29 tells us that God is "a consuming fire." You argue that Paul has a different concept in mind that is not what the Word of God tells us in Hebrews. You should realize that your opinion is fallible while the Word of God is infallible.

"Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person." Colossians 4:6

 

[parousia70]

The fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted–the dross. So, too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards.

So you're saying I may get a nicer eternal room than you in the heavenly mansion if you happen to have more of the "dross" that needs to be removed than I do?

Interesting.
I'll still let you visit me

 

[Major1]

So you're saying I may get a nicer eternal room than you in the heavenly mansion if you happen to have more of the "dross" that needs to be removed than I do?

Interesting.
I'll still let you visit me

NO. YOU said that not me.

I said that the Scripture used to say that 1 Corth.13 was about Purgatory is incorrect. That particular Scripture is about REWARDS after we get to heaven.

Every born again believer is awarded CROWNS when he stands in front of Christ at the Bema Seat.

The rewards that Jesus will be giving are called Crowns. There are 5 crowns mentioned in the Bible. These 5 crowns will be presented as rewards to believers when they appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10 every believer will come before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 

[Major1]

It's a matter of having a civil conversation. Hebrews 12:29 tells us that God is "a consuming fire." You argue that Paul has a different concept in mind that is not what the Word of God tells us in Hebrews. You should realize that your opinion is fallible while the Word of God is infallible.

"Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person." Colossians 4:6

It would be a wonderful blessing if every Catholic believer would read and understand what you just posted.

I agree 100%.

Hebrews 12:29 however is not speaking of a PLACE or a process called Purgatory.

It is A quotation from Deut. 4:24 and these words follow a solemn warning against idolatry and false prophets.

His gospel law, in the contempt of it, will be as the fiery law at Sinai, adjudging such sinners unto a fire of unquenchable properties.

 

[Major1]

Is that a rhetorical question?

I think is is an observable reaction!

 

[Major1]

You mean like how the Bible states "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" but Protestants twist Scripture to make this mean "a man is justified by faith only, and not works", literally the exact opposite of what the word of God clearly states?

That must certainly be "deception" according to your standard, no?

LOL...........Wasn't it YOU who was challenging James as not being in the Bible and wanted to know why the book of James does not say that it is "inspired"??

Now you quote it to try and match your understanding?????

When anyone studies the Scriptures, they see rather quickly that James is warning of a belief in facts -- a type of faith that never results in a changed life.

This kind of faith -- faith in Christ that produces works -- does produce a changed life. Like the Pharisees, people who believe that works are necessary for salvation are zealous to perform these works.

But neither faith in facts nor faith in works saves.

Saving faith comes when someone stops trusting their own goodness or work (Phil. 2:8) and puts all their trust in Christ for salvation. And this type of faith will naturally exhibit good works.

 

[Valletta]

It would be a wonderful blessing if every Catholic believer would read and understand what you just posted.

I agree 100%.

Hebrews 12:29 however is not speaking of a PLACE or a process called Purgatory.

It is A quotation from Deut. 4:24 and these words follow a solemn warning against idolatry and false prophets.

His gospel law, in the contempt of it, will be as the fiery law at Sinai, adjudging such sinners unto a fire of unquenchable properties.

God is not a place, of course.

 

[Swag365]

LOL...........Wasn't it YOU who was challenging James as not being in the Bible and wanted to know why the book of James does not say that it is "inspired"??

No, it was not. Was it you who was incapable of reading and comprehending simple English?

Now you quote it to try and match your understanding?????

There is no misunderstanding whatsoever my friend:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

I understand and completely agree that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only, exactly as Sacred Scripture states.

You on the other hand, believe that a man is justified by faith only, and not by works, which is the exact opposite of what the Bible explicitly states. Thus, you in-fact contradict the exact words of Holy Scripture.

When anyone studies the Scriptures, they see rather quickly that James is warning of a belief in facts -- a type of faith that never results in a changed life.

This kind of faith -- faith in Christ that produces works -- does produce a changed life. Like the Pharisees, people who believe that works are necessary for salvation are zealous to perform these works.

But neither faith in facts nor faith in works saves.

Saving faith comes when someone stops trusting their own goodness or work (Phil. 2:8) and puts all their trust in Christ for salvation. And this type of faith will naturally exhibit good works.

I will stick with the clear words of Sacred Scripture in James 2:24 noted above, and reject your "deceptive" Sola Fide Protestant traditions of men.

Would you like some more Scripture my friend? Here you are:

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.​

 

[parousia70]

NO. YOU said that not me.

I said that the Scripture used to say that 1 Corth.13 was about Purgatory is incorrect. That particular Scripture is about REWARDS after we get to heaven.

Every born again believer is awarded CROWNS when he stands in front of Christ at the Bema Seat.

The rewards that Jesus will be giving are called Crowns. There are 5 crowns mentioned in the Bible. These 5 crowns will be presented as rewards to believers when they appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10 every believer will come before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So If I Get 5 but you only get 3, what does that mean?
What extra access, treats, luxuries, etc do the 5 crown believers get that the 3 crowners don't?

Or is it strictly bragging rights?

 

[bbbbbbb]

So If I Get 5 but you only get 3, what does that mean?
What extra access, treats, luxuries, etc do the 5 crown believers get that the 3 crowners don't?

Or is it strictly bragging rights?

Good questions, indeed, and ones which I have raised with Christians whose motivation to do good works seems to be intensely selfish. If selfishness is the antithesis of godliness, why strive to earn rewards in heaven?

 

[parousia70]

Good questions, indeed, and ones which I have raised with Christians whose motivation to do good works seems to be intensely selfish. If selfishness is the antithesis of godliness, why strive to earn rewards in heaven?

Since the least will be the greatest and the last will be first (Luke 9:48, Matthew 19:30, Mark 9:35) Does that mean the one with 5 crowns is to be the heavenly servant of the one with one crown?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Since the least will be the greatest and the last will be first (Luke 9:48, Matthew 19:30, Mark 9:35) Does that mean the one with 5 crowns is to be the heavenly servant of the one with one crown?

If the Son of Man is the servant of all, then that, assuredly, ought to be the situation.

 

[Major1]

So If I Get 5 but you only get 3, what does that mean?
What extra access, treats, luxuries, etc do the 5 crown believers get that the 3 crowners don't?

Or is it strictly bragging rights?

It would mean that I did more for Christ while I had the opportunity than you did.

When one read the Bible it is clear that in 2 Tim. 4:8.....
"Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing".

The crown of life is mentioned in Rev. 2:10.............
"Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."

1 Thess. 2:19.....
"For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?"

1 Peter 5:41 Peter 5:4, saying, .........
"And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory."

 

[Major1]

No, it was not. Was it you who was incapable of reading and comprehending simple English?

There is no misunderstanding whatsoever my friend:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

I understand and completely agree that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only, exactly as Sacred Scripture states.

You on the other hand, believe that a man is justified by faith only, and not by works, which is the exact opposite of what the Bible explicitly states. Thus, you in-fact contradict the exact words of Holy Scripture.

I will stick with the clear words of Sacred Scripture in James 2:24 noted above, and reject your "deceptive" Sola Fide Protestant traditions of men.

Would you like some more Scripture my friend? Here you are:

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.​

I do not agree. Your uderstanding is very flawed.

James clearly says that saving faith will produce works. That is NOT justification my friend.

IF someone who does not have the desire to do good works then the James is saying that they were not justified to start with.

If that is not the case then Ephesians 2:8-9 must be removed from your Bible.

"Ye are saved by grace through faith and NOT OF YOURSELVES!

 

[Major1]

God is not a place, of course.

Correct. It is not a place and it is not a PROCESS!

Why don't you do the work so that you will know the truth. Purgatory is NOT found in the Bible.
Purgatory was not in the Catechism of the Catholic church.

So where in the world did it come from.

YOU do the work. YOU do the study. . A sort of proto-purgatory called the "celestial Hades " appears in the writings of Plato and Heraclides Ponticus and in many other pagan writers. This concept is distinguished from the Hades of the underworld described in the works of Homer and Hesiod.

 

[Valletta]

Prayers for the dead, and thus purgatory, was been part of Judeo/Christian beliefs all the way back to OT times. The movement to deny purgatory did not take place until Protestant reformation times. While Protestants dropped it, prayers for the dead are still said by Jews and other Christians, in the east and west. Since you are trying to imply a pagan origin, did you know that the name you identify by, "Christian," was first used by pagans? Consult the Bible, it tells you the first time the word was used.

2 Maccabees was dropped from the version of the Word of God used by Protestants, it was a glaring contradiction to their new teachings that purgatory did not exist. It was not actually physically removed from within the bindings of the King James until the 1800s.

 

[Albion]

Prayers for the dead, and thus purgatory, was been part of Judeo/Christian beliefs all the way back to OT times.

And yet prayers for the dead do not prove the existence of Purgatory. All they show is an appeal being made to God for his mercy, however and only if that is applicable, to be shown towards the departed.

That's what was observed among the Jews according to the passage in 2 Maccabees that is the leading "proof" text cited by people trying to say that the Bible teaches Purgatory or that the Jews did. Neither of those is in fact substantiated by that verse.

The movement to deny purgatory did not take place until Protestant reformation times.

True, but Purgatory had only been declared/created by the Catholic Church several generations prior to the 16th century!

The opposition to it and every unScriptural practice associated with that doctrine could obviously not have started earlier.

While Protestants dropped it, prayers for the dead are still said by Jews and other Christians, in the east and west.

Yes, there are churches such as mine that reject the notion of a Purgatory but yet offer generalized prayers for the dead. As I was saying earlier, the one is not a function of the other.

2 Maccabees was dropped from the version of the Word of God used by Protestants, it was a glaring contradiction to their new teachings that purgatory did not exist.

That book, and that particular passage in it, do not show a belief in Purgatory.

But Protestants are not opposed to talking about 2 Maccabees and what it has to say EVEN THOUGH that book is not considered to be part of the Bible.

It was not actually physically removed from within the bindings of the King James until the 1800s.

Removed by the publishers of Bibles, you mean. The declaration that the Apocrypha is to be read but not considered as inspired or useful for determining any doctrine...was made by the Church in the 16th century.

 

[Swag365]

I do not agree. Your uderstanding is very flawed.

No, my "understanding" is exactly what Sacred Scripture states:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

Your "understanding" is that by faith only a man is justified, and not by works. Thus, your "understanding" is exactly the opposite of what the word of God expressly states.

James clearly says that saving faith will produce works.

No, James does not state that "saving faith will produce works". That is false. That phrase is not stated anywhere in James.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that a saving faith produces good works.

IF someone who does not have the desire to do good works then the James is saying that they were not justified to start with.

No, that is not what James said. That is your paraphrase and your interpretation of what James said, but that is not what James said. I reject your paraphrase and interpretation, and accept the clear word of God. This is what James said:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

If that is not the case then Ephesians 2:8-9 must be removed from your Bible.

Nonsense.

"Ye are saved by grace through faith and NOT OF YOURSELVES!

Amen brother. Amen!

 

[Valletta]

True, but Purgatory had only been declared/created by the Catholic Church several generations prior to the 16th century!

The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. Catholic teachings are supported by the Bible, not all spelled out, such as our belief in the Holy Trinity. The concept of Purgatory was not "created" during the times of the reformation. Teaching is often formally declared by the Catholic Church because of heresy or disagreement. For example, the Gospels were well accepted as the Word of God long before the Catholic Church formally approved the Bible in the late 300s. Those Gospels were part of mass readings in the early centuries of Christianity. But there were differences (disagreement) in readings from region to region, and the Catholic Church wanted to determine what was and what was not the Word of God. The process spanned centuries. The first list of the 73 books of the Bible in the same order we used today did not appear until the 300s.

To me purgatory is heavily implied by the Bible, you have a right to disagree. But the understanding was there, in early Christianity. You can see from this book from 202 A.D. that the understanding was more than prayers for the dead:

"This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering. . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4

 

[Albion]

The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around.

Purgatory as we know it was authorized and launched at a Catholic council in the 15th century, so it has nothing to do with which came first--Catholic Church or the Bible.

Catholic teachings are supported by the Bible

Some are. This one isn't.

The concept of Purgatory was not "created" during the times of the reformation.

I didn't say they were. Purgatory was created only a few years prior to the beginning of the Reformation, though, so any criticism about Protestants not challenging it during the prior 1400 years or so doesn't come close to making sense!

But there were differences (disagreement) in readings from region to region, and the Catholic Church wanted to determine what was and what was not the Word of God. The process spanned centuries. The first list of the 73 books of the Bible in the same order we used today did not appear until the 300s.

Except for those books of the Apocrypha that the Catholic Church expelled from the Bible during the 16th century.

To me purgatory is heavily implied by the Bible, you have a right to disagree.

It's not heavily implied, regardless of your willingness to believe it. There is virtually nothing in Scripture that can even be twisted into supporting the Treasury of Merit, Indulgences, and other elements that are inherent in believing in Purgatory. There might be some basis for belief in something happening in the afterlife that is not either heaven or hell, but that doesn't mean that 90% of the theory of Purgatory can just be speculated on and then penciled in.

What is in Scripture is so scant that to make a very technical and specific doctrine like Purgatory out of it is like saying that the Bible indicates that the Dead Sea existed in Jesus' time, ergo that proves the existence of submarines in heaven! Well, both are about water....so??

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

2:3–4

And as for the prison diary of Perpetua who was martyred in the third century, this is history, but it's not the Bible (which you've been saying proves Purgatory) and it's not Tradition (which the Catholic Church also uses to create doctrine, at least in theory) or the findings of an Ecumenical Council or the position taken by the Magisterium that is sometimes appealed to, and it's also not any kind of doctrinal consensus among the Early Church Fathers.

This is one person's accounts of her experiences prior to death and her own thoughts. You're trying to prove Purgatory with a diary entry.