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Historicist Only Protestant Historicism

interpreter

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I guess you haven’t attended worship with knowledgeable Protestants. Please, do not name drop…

Lutheran, “If the adversaries defend these human services as meriting justification, grace, and the remission of sins, they simply establish the kingdom of Antichrist. For the kingdom of Antichrist is a new service of God, devised by human authority rejecting Christ, just as the kingdom of Mahomet has services and works through which it wishes to be justified before God; nor does it hold that men are gratuitously justified before God by faith, for Christ’s sake. Thus the Papacy also will be a part of the kingdom of Antichrist if it thus defends human services as justifying.” Apology of the Augsburg Confession XV. 18.

Now, re-read the quote from Trent:

The Council of Trent, CANON 9 "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

Above I quoted the historic position of the Baptists. Now read the Presbyterian and Baptist confessions side by side here:

http://www.proginosko.com/docs/wcf_lbcf.html#LBCF26

Quote from Wiki:

Rather than expecting a single Antichrist to rule the earth during a future Tribulation period, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Protestant reformers saw the Antichrist as a present feature in the world of their time, fulfilled in the papacy.[2]
Some Franciscans had considered the Emperor Frederick II a positive Antichrist who would clean the Church from riches and clergy.[3] The Centuriators of Magdeburg, a group of Lutheran scholars in Magdeburg headed by Matthias Flacius, wrote the 12-volume "Magdeburg Centuries" to discredit the Papacy, and identify the pope as the Antichrist.[4]
Some of the debated features of the Reformation historicist interpretations reached beyond the Book of Revelation. They included the identification of:

Source

You are also wrong about what the Eastern Orthodox believe about the papacy. Please see Last Things: An Orthodox Perspective on the End Times by Engleman

Quoted from the Eastern Orthodox Study Bible, "Peter/rock is a play on the word for rock in Aramaic and Greek (petros/petra). Rock refers not to Peter himself but to the confession of his faith. The true Rock and foundation of the Church is, of course, Christ Himself. The Church rests upon this Rock by her unchanging faith, her confession. With this faith as the foundation, the gates of Hades, the powers of death, are powerless against her.”
LOL. I don't care what Luther or Calvin or any man has said. The Revelation says there is but one antichrist and he causes great tribulation for 3 1/2 years. That prophecy can only refer to Hitler who killed millions of God's two witnesses in the great tribulation of WW II which lasted exactly 3 1/2 years. I strongly suggest that you read the Bible instead of what men have said about the antichrist. John issues a very stern warning to those who take away from, or add to the words of the Revelation. He says God will send plagues on them and take them out of the Book of Life. Is that what you want?

And Engleman's false interpretation of Mat. 16:18-19 is a lie invented by Protestants in an attempt to explain away a saying of Jesus they don't like, and it definitely is not the traditional Orthodox view. Orthodox theologian John Meyendorff sums up the Orthodox point of view throughout the Middle Ages in these comments:

Orthodox ecclesiastical writers were never ashamed of praising the ‘coryphaeus’ and of recognizing his pre-eminent function in the very foundation of the Church. They simply did not consider this praise and recognition as relevant in any way to the papal claims, since any bishop, and not only the pope, derives his ministry from the ministry of Peter. . . It belongs to the essence of Orthodox ecclesiology to consider any local bishop to be the teacher of his flock and therefore to fulfil sacramentally, through the apostolic succession, the office of the first true believer, Peter.
 
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You are redefining the term "heretical." Protestant orthodoxy, historically, acknowledged the papacy as antichrist. You simply cannot ignore this fact. The antichrist will teach another Gospel.

The Council of Trent, CANON 9 "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

There you have it. If not the' antichrist, the one who teaches the above is an antichrist.

Francis Turretin was a Reformer. From his Seventh Disputation, "Whether It Can Be Proven that the Pope of Rome Is the Antichrist.The term Antichrist implies two meanings:

(1) That he is an Enemy and Rival of Christ;

(2) That he is His Vicar.

The definition of the prefix anti, indeed, introduces both, which, when used in conjunction with a noun, means, on the one hand, before, and on the other hand, against. It can also mean in place of, and, indeed, a substitute. . . . In this regard, the Antichrist certainly presents himself as the great adversary of Christ, in so far as he makes himself equal to Christ as a rival, while professing to hold the place of Christ on earth, as His Vicar."

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church #882, The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

"...he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thess. 2 (for a detailed fleshing out of 2 Thess. 2 please see Thomas Manton's 18 sermons on the subject.)

The church is the Temple, "For we are the temple of the living God" 2 Cor. 6

Manton,

But is, then, the church of Rome the church of Christ?

Ans. It was one part of it before it was perverted; it usurpeth still that name; it retaineth some relic of a church, mangled as it is. Saith Calvin in his Epistles: ‘I think I have given some strong reasons that it yet retaineth some show of a church.’ Now in this temple of God he sitteth as an officer and bishop there, as I before explained it: and whereas other princes are said to reign so many years, the Pope is said to sit so long. It is his sedes, his cathedral or seat. And again, here he is said to sit as God, that is, as God incarnate, for Christ is the true and proper Lord of the church; none should reign there but he. And the name of this man of sin is not Antitheos, but anticristos; not one that directly invadeth the properties of the supreme God, but of God incarnate, or Christ as Mediator: he sitteth negatively, not as a minister, but positively as supreme lord upon earth, whom all must adore and worship, and kings and princes kiss his feet. In short, he usurpeth the authority due to Christ.

Now I shall prove that by a double argument: -

First, By usurping the titles due to Christ; for he that will make bold with names will make bold with things; as to be sponsus ecclesiæ, the husband of the church, as Innocent called the church sponsam suam, his spouse; caput ecclesiæ, the head of the church, which is proper to the Saviour of the body; supreme, visible, and universal head, which only Christ is, who hath promised to be with her to the end of the world, and will be visible to those who do at length approach his court in heaven, where his seat is; to be chief pastor, Christ’s own title: ‘And when the chief shepherd shall appear,’ 1 Peter v. 4; to be pontifex maximus, the greatest high priest, whereas Christ alone is called ‘the high priest of our profession,’ Heb. iii. 1, and ‘the great high priest over the house of God,’ Heb. iv. 14; so his vicar-general upon earth; whereas the ancient church attributed this to the Holy Ghost, calling it Vicariam vim Spiritus Sancti, he supplies his room and absence. Now titles including power, certainly they are not to be usurped without warrant. Therefore to call the Pope the chief and only shepherd, and the like, it is to usurp his authority to whom these things originally belong.

Secondly, He doth usurp the thing implied by the titles—the authority over the church, which is only due to God incarnate. Supreme authority may be considered, either as to the claim, right, property, and pre-eminence which belong to it, or to the exercise.

1. The claim and right pretended. He sitteth as God in the temple of God; that is, by virtue of his office there, claimeth the same power that Christ had, which is fourfold:—

(1.) An unlimited power over all things both in heaven and earth. This was given to Christ, Mat. xxviii. 18, and the Pope, as his vicar, challengeth it. But where is the plea and ground of the claim? For one to set up himself as a vice-god without warrant, is rebellion against Christ. To set himself in his throne without his leave, surely none is fit to have this authority that hath not his power to back and to administer and govern all things for the church’s good, which power God would trust in the hands of no creature.

(2.) A universal headship and supremacy over all the churches of Christ. Now, this supreme power over all Christians is the right of God incarnate, and whosoever challengeth it sits as God in the temple of God; and it is very derogatory to the comfort of the faithful that they should in all things depend upon one man as their supreme pastor, or else be excluded from the hope of salvation. Certainly this power, as to matter of fact, is impossible to be managed by any man, considering the vast extent of the world, and the variety of governments and different interests under which the people of God find shelter and protection, and the multitude and diversity of those things which are comprised in such a government; and, as to matter of right, it is sacrilegious, for Christ never instituted any such universal vicar and bishop. It is a dignity too high for any creature: none is fit to be universal head of the church but one that is God as well as man.

(3.) Absolute authority, so as to be above control. When a mortal man should pretend to be so absolute as to give no account of his actions, that it shall not be lawful to be said to him, What doest thou? and all his decrees must be received without examination or complaint, this is such a sovereignty as belongs to none but God: Job ix. 12, ‘Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?’ Now, this is in their canon law, that the Pope is to be judged by no man; that though he should lead millions of souls into hell, none can say Domine, cur ita facis?

(4.) Infallibility and freedom from error, which is the property of God: he neither is deceived nor can deceive. ‘Let God be true, and every man a liar.’ Now, that corrupt and fallible man should arrogate this to himself, such an unerring in judgment, is to usurp divine honour in matter of right and in matter of fact. For the Pope to arrogate this is as great a contradiction to all sense and reason as if a man sick of the plague, or any other mortal disease, should say that he was immortal, and in that part wherein the disease was seated.​

...perhaps you should read Wylie before dismissing his argument, especially since you don’t know what it is.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

PS: Interpreter, you are incorrect in your assumption, that I haven't read Matthew 16...and if you decided to fellowship with the Orthodox just ask them what they think of Matthew 16 in relation to the pope. Also, maybe you should Matthew 28:18 where Christ tells us, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Or Revelation 1:18 which explicitly states that Christ, not Peter, has the keys. "I have the keys of Death and Hades."
 
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JM

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I guess you haven’t attended worship with knowledgeable Protestants. Please, do not name drop…
Lutheran, “If the adversaries defend these human services as meriting justification, grace, and the remission of sins, they simply establish the kingdom of Antichrist. For the kingdom of Antichrist is a new service of God, devised by human authority rejecting Christ, just as the kingdom of Mahomet has services and works through which it wishes to be justified before God; nor does it hold that men are gratuitously justified before God by faith, for Christ’s sake. Thus the Papacy also will be a part of the kingdom of Antichrist if it thus defends human services as justifying.” Apology of the Augsburg Confession XV. 18.
Now, re-read the quote from Trent:
The Council of Trent, CANON 9 "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
Above I quoted the historic position of the Baptists. Now read the Presbyterian and Baptist confessions side by side here:
http://www.proginosko.com/docs/wcf_lbcf.html#LBCF26
Quote from Wiki:
Rather than expecting a single Antichrist to rule the earth during a future Tribulation period, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Protestant reformers saw the Antichrist as a present feature in the world of their time, fulfilled in the papacy.[2]
Some Franciscans had considered the Emperor Frederick II a positive Antichrist who would clean the Church from riches and clergy.[3] The Centuriators of Magdeburg, a group of Lutheran scholars in Magdeburg headed by Matthias Flacius, wrote the 12-volume "Magdeburg Centuries" to discredit the Papacy, and identify the pope as the Antichrist.[4]
Some of the debated features of the Reformation historicist interpretations reached beyond the Book of Revelation. They included the identification of:
Source
You are also wrong about what the Eastern Orthodox believe about the papacy. Please see Last Things: An Orthodox Perspective on the End Times by Engleman
Quoted from the Eastern Orthodox Study Bible, "Peter/rock is a play on the word for rock in Aramaic and Greek (petros/petra). Rock refers not to Peter himself but to the confession of his faith. The true Rock and foundation of the Church is, of course, Christ Himself. The Church rests upon this Rock by her unchanging faith, her confession. With this faith as the foundation, the gates of Hades, the powers of death, are powerless against her.”
 
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JM

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By J. L. Haynes

What is Futurism?

Futurism, as it pertains to Biblical prophecy, is the theory that most of the events of Revelation, and the 70th week of Daniel 9, are to be fulfilled sometime in the future. Futurists generally believe that an individual will appear on the world stage who will usurp the place of Christ as the head of the Church. This individual, they anticipate, will deceive many people into believing that he is some kind of messiah. He will become a world-leader, and through his influence persecute Christians and Jews for a period of time. This person, futurists believe will be the Antichrist.
  • Some Futurists believe that Christ will return at the beginning of Antichrist's reign to rescue the faithful Christians and take them to heaven so that they are spared the seven years of "great tribulation." After these seven years Christ will return to earth with His saints to destroy Antichrist and establish His Kingdom on earth to last a thousand years.
  • The other main view of Futurism holds that Christians will not be spared from the tribulation under the Antichrist. These Futurists believe that Christ will only return to rescue His Church and destroy the Antichrist at the end of seven years of persecution. Most Christians today hold one of these two Futurist views.
What is Historicism?

Historicism is the view that most of Revelation describes history as it has been unfolding over the last 20 centuries. Historicists see in the prophecies concerning the Dragon, the Beast, the False Prophet, and the harlot of Babylon, references to the pagan Roman Empire, papal Rome (that is, Roman Europe under the rule of the popes ), the Papacy, and the Roman Catholic Church. The majority of Historicists also identify the symbols of the smoke rising from the Abyss and the invasion of locusts as descriptions of the rise and spread of Islam. This view united all Protestants throughout the Reformation and has largely been replaced by Futurism as the dominant eschatology (belief about the end-times) of evangelical Christians.


To put it another way, Historicism is the method of interpreting Biblical prophecy by comparing history to the prophecy in question. Historicists believe that prophecy is history pre-written. Therefore prophecy can be understood by looking to the past to discover what has, and hasn't, been fulfilled. Historicism, as a school of thought, like futurism, contains many differing opinions as to details of prophetic interpretation. It is not a system that must stand or fall by its ability to withstand criticism. It is a method of interpretation that allows its adherents to continually re-evaluate their opinions as they grow in their understanding of both history, and the Bible.

What does the Bible have to say?

These days I often hear statements like the following: "The current moves of the EU toward centralization lead many to believe that, soon, a powerful leader will emerge who will..." [you fill in the blanks]

Obviously this is based largely on the prophecies found in Daniel 7, Revelation 13, and 17 (If you are unfamiliar with these passages of the Bible, I suggest that you read the above chapters before going on ). Basically, since the prophets foresaw the fourth beast dividing into 10 "kingdoms" out of which the Antichrist would appear, and since there are many indications that we are in the last days, these events in Europe lead us to believe the ten-fold world-order is upon us. After all, that makes sense: we know that Antichrist would come out from among 10 kingdoms (Dan. 7:24,25), and we know that these 10 kingdoms are most likely those of Western Europe. We know this because the fourth beast is undoubtedly the Roman Empire, and the area where the 10 horns grow must, by necessity be the area that was not taken, by Rome, from any of the preceding empires, but must be unique to those conquests of Rome. Daniel 7:12 reads, "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time." (NAS) Since the four beasts are separate from each other, and their lives "were prolonged for [an appointed time]"-- ( the Chaldean word here is "zeman:" (Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary, 2166), "season, time" from "zaman: to fix a time, or appoint."-- I believe the domains of the beasts do not overlap.

"These ten kings should be looked for in the territory of the western empire of Rome only. 'The ten horns of the fourth empire must none of them be sought for in the realms of the third, second, or first, but exclusively in the realm of the fourth, or in the territory peculiar to ROME, and which had never formed part either of the Grecian, Medo-Persian, or Babylonian empires.' The master mind of Sir Isaac Newton perceived this long ago. He says: 'Seeing the body of the third beast is confined to the nations on this side the Euphrates, and the body of the fourth beast is confined to the nations on this side of Greece, we are to look for all the four heads of the third beast among the nations on this side the Euphrates, and for all the eleven horns of the fourth beast among the nations on this side of Greece.'..." (H.Grattan Guinness, Light for The Last Days, Edited by E.P. Chachmaille.( London & Edinburgh: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1917), pp. 72-73.) (emphasis mine)

So, to sum up what we know:

1) Antichrist must be somehow "Roman" (since he comes out of the Roman beast)
2) He must arise during the time of the 10 fold "European union"
3) Both Antichrist, and his 10-fold "empire" are to be destroyed by Christ (Dan.2:34, 44-45; 7:8-9, 26-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Rev.19:20-21) "by the brightness of His coming".

Right?

The problem is timing. To anyone who knows history the truth should be obvious, but of course, we know that "only the wise would understand" (Dan.12:10) So perhaps God has allowed many of us to be blind to the truth so that in His timing HE would reveal the truth so HIS name would be glorified?

Please read what I have to say with an open mind. I sense the "time" is upon us. We have, I believe, little time to debate the finer points of our diverse eschatologies, when we should be motivated by our knowledge of the "end times" to witness, actively, for Christ, to those who, otherwise, would be lost! That is my motive. If you reject my arguments, at least ensure that you encourage other believers to share their faith, with a sense of urgency.

1) The fourth Beast of Daniel 7, is the same "composite" beast of Rev. 13 and 17.
2) This is the Beast of Rev. 19, who is destroyed by Christ.
3) "Antichrist" was prophesied as coming out from among a ten-fold division of the fourth Beast- i.e.: from among its 10 horns.(Dan.7:8)
4) This 10-fold condition of the Beast's kingdom exists at the coming of Christ to begin His millennial reign.(Dan.2:34-35, 44-45).

One interpretation best fits the evidence we have seen so far. I suggest it is the following...
 
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JM

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Wiki:

Overview

Historicism was the belief held by the majority of the Protestant Reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and others including John Thomas, John Knox, and Cotton Mather. The Catholic church tried to counter it with Preterism and Futurism during the Counter Reformation.[2][page needed][3] This alternate view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants,[4][5] and is viewed as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy and the Pope with the Anti-Christ.[5]

Historicists claim that prophetic interpretation reveals the entire course of history of the church from the close of the 1st century to the end of time.[6] Historicist interpretations have been criticized for inconsistencies, conjectures, and speculations. There is no agreement about various outlines of church history. Historicist readings of the Book of Revelation have been revised as new events occur and new figures emerge on the world scene.[7]
One of the most influential aspects of the Protestant historicist paradigm was the speculation that the Pope could be Antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view, which was not novel, into the Smalcald Articles of 1537. It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons and drama, books and broadside publication.[8] Jesuit commentators developed alternate approaches that would later become known as preterism and futurism, and applied them to apocalyptic literature;[9][10] Francisco Ribera[11] developed a form of futurism (1590), and Luis de Alcazar a form of preterism, at the same period.[12][13][14]

The historicist approach has been used in attempts to predict the date of the end of the world. An example in post-Reformation Britain is in the works of Charles Wesley, who predicted that the end of the world would occur in 1794, based on his analysis of the Book of Revelation.[citation needed] Adam Clarke, whose commentary was published in 1831, proposed a possible date of 2015 for the end of the papal power.[15]

In 19th-century America, William Miller proposed that the end of the world would occur on October 22, 1844, based on a historicist model used with Daniel 8:14. Miller’s historicist approach to the Book of Daniel spawned a national movement in the United States known as Millerism. After the Great Disappointment some of the Millerites eventually organized the Seventh-day Adventist Church,[16] which continues to maintain a historicist reading of biblical prophecy as essential to its eschatology.[17][page needed] Millerites also formed other Adventist bodies, including the one that spawned the Watch Tower movement, better known as Jehovah's Witnesses, who hold to their own unique historicist interpretations of Bible prophecy.[18]
 
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III. Thread Tags:

Please consider using one of the thread tags located next to the thread title box when you start a new thread. A drop down menu will give you quite a few options to choose from. Please respect the thread tag that the original poster (OP) has chosen for their thread. Ignoring a thread tag may result in your post being reported and potentially actioned by staff.

The Year-Day Principle by F. N. Lee
 
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interpreter

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By J. L. Haynes

What is Futurism?

Futurism, as it pertains to Biblical prophecy, is the theory that most of the events of Revelation, and the 70th week of Daniel 9, are to be fulfilled sometime in the future. Futurists generally believe that an individual will appear on the world stage who will usurp the place of Christ as the head of the Church. This individual, they anticipate, will deceive many people into believing that he is some kind of messiah. He will become a world-leader, and through his influence persecute Christians and Jews for a period of time. This person, futurists believe will be the Antichrist.
  • Some Futurists believe that Christ will return at the beginning of Antichrist's reign to rescue the faithful Christians and take them to heaven so that they are spared the seven years of "great tribulation." After these seven years Christ will return to earth with His saints to destroy Antichrist and establish His Kingdom on earth to last a thousand years.
  • The other main view of Futurism holds that Christians will not be spared from the tribulation under the Antichrist. These Futurists believe that Christ will only return to rescue His Church and destroy the Antichrist at the end of seven years of persecution. Most Christians today hold one of these two Futurist views.
What is Historicism?

Historicism is the view that most of Revelation describes history as it has been unfolding over the last 20 centuries. Historicists see in the prophecies concerning the Dragon, the Beast, the False Prophet, and the harlot of Babylon, references to the pagan Roman Empire, papal Rome (that is, Roman Europe under the rule of the popes ), the Papacy, and the Roman Catholic Church. The majority of Historicists also identify the symbols of the smoke rising from the Abyss and the invasion of locusts as descriptions of the rise and spread of Islam. This view united all Protestants throughout the Reformation and has largely been replaced by Futurism as the dominant eschatology (belief about the end-times) of evangelical Christians.


To put it another way, Historicism is the method of interpreting Biblical prophecy by comparing history to the prophecy in question. Historicists believe that prophecy is history pre-written. Therefore prophecy can be understood by looking to the past to discover what has, and hasn't, been fulfilled. Historicism, as a school of thought, like futurism, contains many differing opinions as to details of prophetic interpretation. It is not a system that must stand or fall by its ability to withstand criticism. It is a method of interpretation that allows its adherents to continually re-evaluate their opinions as they grow in their understanding of both history, and the Bible.

What does the Bible have to say?

These days I often hear statements like the following: "The current moves of the EU toward centralization lead many to believe that, soon, a powerful leader will emerge who will..." [you fill in the blanks]

Obviously this is based largely on the prophecies found in Daniel 7, Revelation 13, and 17 (If you are unfamiliar with these passages of the Bible, I suggest that you read the above chapters before going on ). Basically, since the prophets foresaw the fourth beast dividing into 10 "kingdoms" out of which the Antichrist would appear, and since there are many indications that we are in the last days, these events in Europe lead us to believe the ten-fold world-order is upon us. After all, that makes sense: we know that Antichrist would come out from among 10 kingdoms (Dan. 7:24,25), and we know that these 10 kingdoms are most likely those of Western Europe. We know this because the fourth beast is undoubtedly the Roman Empire, and the area where the 10 horns grow must, by necessity be the area that was not taken, by Rome, from any of the preceding empires, but must be unique to those conquests of Rome. Daniel 7:12 reads, "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time." (NAS) Since the four beasts are separate from each other, and their lives "were prolonged for [an appointed time]"-- ( the Chaldean word here is "zeman:" (Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary, 2166), "season, time" from "zaman: to fix a time, or appoint."-- I believe the domains of the beasts do not overlap.

"These ten kings should be looked for in the territory of the western empire of Rome only. 'The ten horns of the fourth empire must none of them be sought for in the realms of the third, second, or first, but exclusively in the realm of the fourth, or in the territory peculiar to ROME, and which had never formed part either of the Grecian, Medo-Persian, or Babylonian empires.' The master mind of Sir Isaac Newton perceived this long ago. He says: 'Seeing the body of the third beast is confined to the nations on this side the Euphrates, and the body of the fourth beast is confined to the nations on this side of Greece, we are to look for all the four heads of the third beast among the nations on this side the Euphrates, and for all the eleven horns of the fourth beast among the nations on this side of Greece.'..." (H.Grattan Guinness, Light for The Last Days, Edited by E.P. Chachmaille.( London & Edinburgh: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1917), pp. 72-73.) (emphasis mine)

So, to sum up what we know:

1) Antichrist must be somehow "Roman" (since he comes out of the Roman beast)
2) He must arise during the time of the 10 fold "European union"
3) Both Antichrist, and his 10-fold "empire" are to be destroyed by Christ (Dan.2:34, 44-45; 7:8-9, 26-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Rev.19:20-21) "by the brightness of His coming".

Right?

The problem is timing. To anyone who knows history the truth should be obvious, but of course, we know that "only the wise would understand" (Dan.12:10) So perhaps God has allowed many of us to be blind to the truth so that in His timing HE would reveal the truth so HIS name would be glorified?

Please read what I have to say with an open mind. I sense the "time" is upon us. We have, I believe, little time to debate the finer points of our diverse eschatologies, when we should be motivated by our knowledge of the "end times" to witness, actively, for Christ, to those who, otherwise, would be lost! That is my motive. If you reject my arguments, at least ensure that you encourage other believers to share their faith, with a sense of urgency.

1) The fourth Beast of Daniel 7, is the same "composite" beast of Rev. 13 and 17.
2) This is the Beast of Rev. 19, who is destroyed by Christ.
3) "Antichrist" was prophesied as coming out from among a ten-fold division of the fourth Beast- i.e.: from among its 10 horns.(Dan.7:8)
4) This 10-fold condition of the Beast's kingdom exists at the coming of Christ to begin His millennial reign.(Dan.2:34-35, 44-45).

One interpretation best fits the evidence we have seen so far. I suggest it is the following...
LOL. Hitler was the antichrist because 10 nations were aligned with him, and he killed millions of God's two witnesses (Christians and Jews). His Third Reich (of Rome) was the third head # 6 of the 666 trilogy.
 
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JM

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LOL. Hitler was the antichrist because 10 nations were aligned with him, and he killed millions of God's two witnesses (Christians and Jews). His Third Reich (of Rome) was the third head # 6 of the 666 trilogy.

The Jews no longer exist as a covenanted nation to God, it is impossible, the Temple is gone. You are claiming God's children are his children by physical birth. Nonsense. Unless...you are claiming God has two peoples, two covenants, two ways of salvation (one through Jesus Christ and another through Jewishness), etc. This was the exact problem Jesus had with the Pharisees, they thought physical birth brought them into the Kingdom. That's unbiblical. How did the Jews testify to Jesus Christ during that horrible period of history known as the Holocaust?

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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ken777

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Rather, The Revelation contains ZERO teaching on the Biblical antchrist.
Such a belief comes from the traditions of men only.

According to the ACTUAL, EXPLICIT scriptural teaching on antichrist (which can be found in 1 & 2 John ONLY), antichrist was a 1st century Church Heresy that affected many, and not a future, individual, political, global, despot.

Such theories come from the imaginations of man only, and can not be found in the pages of Holy Scripture.
1 John 4:3 says some interesting things: (1) antichrist is a spirit (2) it is coming (3) it was present in John's day
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. NIV

The "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Revelation 13:18) will embody the antichrist spirit.
 
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South Bound

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(Confessional Historicism seems to have fallen out of favour, although, I have found a few of us over on the Puritan Board. I’m hoping to discuss Historicism with other Reformed, Protestant NON-SDA Christians.)

Historicism defined,

"that view which regards the prophecy [of Revelation] as a prefiguration of the great events that were to happen in the church, and the world connected with it, from St. John’s time to the consummation; including specially the establishment of Popedom, and reign of Papal Rome, as in some way or other the fulfilment of the types of the Apocalyptic Beast and Babylon" (Horae Apocalpticae, Vol. 4, p. 564).​

E. B. Elliott writes, in Horae Apocalpticae, that Historicism was the major view of the church centuries,

Victorinus (1st century), Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus (3rd century), Origen, Methodius, Lactantius, Eusebius (4th century), Athanasius, Hilary, Jerome, Chrysostom, Augustine, Tichonius, Bede (8th century), Ambrose, Haymo, Andreas, Anselm (12th century), Joachim Abbas (12th century), Jean Pierre d’Olive, Martin Luther (16th century), Bullinger, Bale, John Foxe, Brightman (17th century), Pareus, Franisco Ribera, Alcasar, Mede, Jurieu, Dr. Cressener, Bossuet, Vitringa (18th century), Daubuz, Sir Isaac Newton (18th century), Lacunza, and Gulloway (19th century).​


Some audio for further study:

W. J. Mencarow – A series of sermons that began in 2006 and number 117! Detailed with plenty of facts, tidbits, etc.
Ian Paisley – Nothing to really add. He is an old time firebrand preacher, take it or leave it.
Robert Caringola – Author of “The Present Reign of Jesus Christ” and “Seventy Weeks: The Historical Alternative.”


Dispensationalism teaches that key portions of scripture like Daniel 9, Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation take place at some at sometime in the future. Preterism teaches that much of prophecy took place before the end of the first century.

H. Grattan Guinness explains the origin of Futurism;

The third or FUTURIST view, is that which teaches that the prophetic visions of Revelation, from chapters iv to xix, prefigure events still wholly future and not to take place, till just at the close of this dispensation. . . .

In its present form however it may be said to have originated at the end of the sixteenth century, with the Jesuit Ribera, who, moved like Alcazar, to relieve the Papacy from the terrible stigma cast upon it by the Protestant interpretation, tried to do so, by referring those prophecies to the distant future, instead of like Alcazar to the distant past. For a considerable period this view was confined to Romanists, and was refuted by several masterly Protestant works. But of late years, since the commencement of this century, it has sprung up afresh, and sprung up strange to say among Protestants. It was revived by such writers as the two Maitlands, Burgh, Tyso, Dr. Dodd, the leaders of the “Brethren” generally, and by some Puseyite expositors also . . . ” from The Approaching End of the Age
E. B. Elliot explains the origin of Preterism;

“IT was stated at the conclusion of my Sketch of the History of Apocalyptic Interpretation, that there are at present too, and but two, grand general counter-Schemes to what may be called the historic Protestant view of the Apocalypse: that view which regards the prophecy as a prefiguration of the great events that were to happen in the Church, and world connected with it, from St. Johns time to the consummation; including specially the establishment of the Popedom, and reign of Papal Rome, as in some way or other the fulfillment of the types of the Apocalyptic Beast and Babylon. The first of these two counter-Schemes is the Præterists, which would have the prophecy stop altogether short of the Popedom, explaining it of the catastrophes, one or both, of the Jewish Nation and Pagan Rome; and of which there are two sufficiently distinct varieties: the second the Futurists; which in its original form would have it all shoot over the head of the Popedom into times yet future; and refer simply to the events that are immediately to precede, or to accompany, Christs second Advent; or, in its various modified forms, have them for its chief subject. I shall in this second Part of my Appendix proceed successively to examine these two, or rather four, anti-Protestant counter-Schemes; and show, if I mistake not, the palpable untenableness alike of one and all. Which done,1 It may perhaps be well, from respect to his venerated name, to add an examination of the late Dr. Arnolds general prophetic counter-theory. This, together with a notice of certain recent counter-views on the Millennium, will complete our review of counter-prophetic Schemes.


Now with regard to the Præterist Scheme, on the review of which we are first to enter, it may be remembered that I stated it to have had its origin with the Jesuit Alcasar:2 and that it was subsequently, and after Grotius and Hammonds prior adoption of it, adopted and improved by Bossuet, the great Papal champion, under one form and modification;3 then afterwards, under another modification, by Hernnschneider, Eichhorn, and others of the German critical and generally infidel school of the last half-century;4 followed in our own æra by Heinrichs, and by Moses Stuart of the United States of America.5 The two modifications appear to have arisen mainly out of the differences of date assigned to the Apocalypse; whether about the end of Neros reign or Domitians6 I shall, I think, pretty well exhaust whatever can be thought to call for examination in the system, by considering separately, first the Neronic, or favorite German form and modification of the Præterist Scheme, as propounded by Eichhorn, Hug, Heinrichs, and Moses Stuart; secondly Bossuets Domitianic form, the one most generally approved, I believe, by Roman Catholics.” Horae Apocalypticae or Hours with the Apocalypse

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I like PuritanBoard. The moderators there are great and don't try to bully the members or put up with trolls. But, man, it's slow over there.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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The earliest historicists presumed that the structure of Revelation is the same as Daniel’s book or that the narration repeatedly backtracks. This pattern is what is known as recapitulation. They held the seven seals essentially cover the same period as the seven churches and the trumpets nearly the same period as the seven seals and the vials almost the same period as the trumpets. In essence, the septets (the seven seals and seven trumpets and seven vials) fold back on the seven churches in defiance of specific developmental guidelines.

Indeed, one of the issues in interpreting the Revelation is “progressive revelation.” The earliest historicists did not accept the prophetic view of the seven churches. Even so, today, a significant number acknowledge the progressive revelation that the seven churches represent prophetic eras, especially as the last one exemplifies our modern-day era of a market-driven society in the illustration that the church is lukewarm and maintains they are “rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing” (Revelation 3:17). That is undoubtedly the character of the prosperity churches today. The point is that historicism has acknowledged the need to correct previous misconceptions, and I establish my thesis on this principle.

One example of correction is the developmental guideline in Revelation 4:1, “I will shew thee things which must be hereafter,” which has never been given proper weight by traditional historicists. They acknowledge that the seven churches follow a linear narration but dismiss the developmental guideline of Rev 4:1 and return to the period of the first church as if the seven seals must follow Christ’s first advent instead of following the opening of the last church. My work does not dismiss any developmental guidelines. It maintains the seals must represent phenomena following the introduction of the final church, as the trumpets covey the phenomena of the last seal and the vials the final trumpet. My restructuring makes my work unique amongst others of the same subject or school of thought.

My model maintains the Revelation portrays a linear narration starting at chapters 1 through 11 before it breaks that narration in chapter 12 to return in the time from whence it started. In essence, the book is intended to be folded in half. I ground my model on the Hebraic calendar and its prophetic festivals as well as the developmental guidelines in the book. In other words, the seven churches represent the seven months between the spring and autumnal festivals, which maintains the seals, trumpets, and vials depict the antitypical types of Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur (Festival of the trumpets and Day of Atonement. By antitypical we mean the representation of the festivals, just as the lamb in Passover represented Christ.)

Here is a list that exposes the traditional historicist’s interpretation of the seals, trumpets, and plagues as fuel fit for the fire in 1 Corinthians 3:13:

· One, the verb tenses in Revelation 17:10-11 unequivocally convey the eighth head/kingdom is one of the fallen five, before the sixth, which exposes the folly that the sixth head is any form of government of the Roman beast or the Roman empire itself. No doubt, the eighth kingdom represents the revived Papacy in the historicist’s school of thought. Said texts destroy the rendition that John’s perspective was his day, but rather the future event of the judgment upon the fallen church, prophesied in 2 Thessalonian 2:3.

· Two, the harlot Babylon cannot be hated and burned by the ten kings and at the same time give their power to her to make war with Christ at his return, which demolishes the interpretation that the harlot Babylon is the Papacy at any time.

· Three, it is ludicrous to interpret the little horn in Daniel 7 as God’s fallen church at any time in history. The little horn was corrupt at its inception. Again, this demolishes the interpretation that the harlot Babylon is the Papacy at any time.

· Four, the sea beast is the head that is wounded and represents the Papacy, since Daniel maintains it is the little horn and not the fourth beast that fulfills the 42-mouth criterion. It is the little horn and not the fourth beast that fulfills the criteria that it blasphemes, speaks great things, is given the saints to war against, etc. This identity demonstrates the sea-beast is the head/kingdom that “was, and is not” in Revelation 17 and cements the sixth head/kingdom is the two-horned beast, America, and the seventh is the image.

· Five, nowhere in the Bible are mountains held cryptically as passing forms of government, Uriah Smith’s view, or individual kings, the preterist view. Interpreting them as successive governments that have persecuted God’s people is scriptural, a fact.

· Six, the notion that the Papacy rides the Roman empire in John’s day, five hundred years before it comes into existence, is ludicrous.

Knowing that John’s sea-beast is synonymous with the little horn in Daniel 7 and 8, we can deduce that the casting of the stars to the earth in Revelation 12:4 and the similar event in Daniel 8:10 are explained as a two-part or bipartite attempt by the dragon to sabotage the church by continuing to seduce the Church to resort to the sword to uphold its authority. To reiterate, God’s intent was to plant his church in “heavenly places,” which is expressed in Ephesians 1:3 and 2:6, but the dragon seduced a number of the hosts to apostatize or fall from this station through the Roman emperors and the Roman popes. Through recapitulation, Daniel 8 develops this bipartite association between the fourth beast and the little horn of Daniel 7. The dragon, through the Roman empire, the fourth beast, sought to seduce the church into wielding the sword as the corrector of heretics, just as the dragon, through the papacy, lured the horns or nations that formed the European See to commit supposed heretics to the sword and flame. In Daniel 8:11, the Roman Empire magnified itself against the “prince of host” Christ, as did the papacy. In a subcategory to his treatise titled, On the Subordination of the State to the Church, a nineteenth-century catholic prelate Tommaso Maria Zigliara, maintained the pope held all things necessary for the “valid authority over all peoples or nations,” which support my thesis.[1] The Roman Empire cast down the sanctuary of God in AD 70, while, in agreement with historicist Gerhard Pfandl, the papacy cast down the sanctuary by,

placing human intercession into the hands of the priests, the use of confessional, and by sacrificing Christ anew in every Mass, the Papacy has eclipsed Christ’s heavenly ministry in the minds of the worshipers. Believers no longer approach Christ directly; instead, they go to the priest, to the saints, or to Mary. By substituting the priest’s service here on earth for Christ’s role in the heavenly sanctuary the little horn has symbolically “cast down the place of his sanctuary” to the earth and thereby defiled it.[2]​

Daniel 8:9 conveys that the little horn rises out of one of “them” and “waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.” Those who maintain the horn represents Antiochus Epiphanies interpret the antecedent of the pronoun “them” as the horns. Yet, Antiochus does not exhaust the criteria that identify the little horn, while the bipartite interpretation that the little horn is the Roman Empire and the papacy fulfills all the criteria and correlates with the history of the latter entities. The most revealing bipartite interpretation is that both the Roman Empire and the papacy both came from out of the Western Macedonian dominion and “waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.” The historical accounts relate that the Roman Empire,

conquered Macedonia and waxed exceeding greater than Alexander “towards the south, and towards the east, and towards the pleasant land” (Daniel 8:9). Rome waxed to the south and Egypt was ultimately made a province of Rome in 30 BC. Antiochus Magnus was defeated by Rome and made to pay tribute and Syria became a Roman province in 65 BC as Rome waxed to the east. The pleasant land is Judea and Rome made it a province in 63 BC.[3]​

In support of the bipartite interpretation of the little horn in Daniel 8, pope Urban II sanctioned the first Crusade that invaded the pleasant land from the same western dominion that was once Macedonia and inevitably took possession of Jerusalem for the pope in AD 1099. The fourth Crusade sacked Constantinople in AD 1204, which fulfilled the criterion that the little horn waxed exceeding great to the east. In AD 1218 the fifth Crusade besieged the Egyptian port of Damietta and held it for two years at the completion of the siege, fulfilling the criterion that the little horn waxed exceeding great to the south.

The bipartite attempt by the dragon power to seduce the church to defile itself by welding the sword through the Roman Empire and the papacy came to an end with the rise of the Protestants, and specifically protestant America. The papacy corresponds historically with the king that “was” and “is not” in Revelation 17, as the Protestant’s disestablishment of religion wounded it. Here we find the significance of the absence of the crowns in the description of the beast with seven heads and ten horns. The twentieth-century historicist George McCready Price rightly interpreted the significance of the missing crowns in Revelation 17 and how they match perfectly with the history of the papacy and the Protestants,

The ten horns of the scarlet beast of chapter 17 have no crowns upon them, suggesting that this vision applies at a later period after the ten horns have ceased to do the bidding of the Papacy, a fact further suggested by the statement that these ten kings “have not yet received royal power,” or the power to oppress or lord it over the minds and lives of men; “but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.” (Revelation 17:12, R.S.V.) In other words, at the time here spoken of intolerance and persecution had ceased for the time being, but would again be revived, along with the power of the beast from the abyss, the bottomless pit. And how accurately this describes our own times, when the power to persecute has been quiescent for nearly two centuries, but when the ominous signs of the revival of intolerance are visible to all![4]​

The schools of thought competing with historicism must whitewash the history of the papacy and Protestantism in order to maintain their eschatology. Associate professor of law, E. Gregory Wallace, supports Price’s historical correlation that the scarlet beast in Revelation 17, that “was” and “is not,” at “the time” of the judgment of the harlot Babylon, was heralded in Revelation 13 and represents the disestablishment of religion by Protestantism. Wallace’s support is in the historical evidence that the papacy often coerced the kings of Europe into bowing to its authority before disestablishment occurred,

This struggle for supremacy was repeated again and again in the centuries that followed. The emperors sought to retain power over the church through the appointment of bishops and other means. Asserting the intrinsic superiority of the spiritual over the temporal, the popes would claim the higher power for themselves, which included the power to depose emperors. Such claims were backed by the powerful presence of the Catholic church in society. The church had its own laws, courts, and bureaucracy—it was itself very much like a state. National power often was fragmented and the only bond of unity that held society together was its common Catholic religion. Pope Innocent III proclaimed at the beginning of the thirteenth century that “[e]cclesiastical liberty is nowhere better cared for than where the Roman church has full power in both temporal and spiritual affairs”220 and that it had been left to Peter, the first pope, ‘not only the universal church but the whole world to govern.”221 The popes deposed or threatened with deposition at least six kings and excommunicated emperors and kings on more than ten occasions. Papal claims reached a crescendo with Boniface VIII’s bull, Unam Sanctam (1302), and its bold declarations that “the spiritual power has to institute the earthly power and to judge it” and “it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff.”[5]​

It was the papacy that legitimized the use of the sword against supposed heretics, which was taken from the horns at disestablishment, hence the missing crowns on the horns. Price’s interpretation maintains that John was taken by the Spirit unto the future judgment of the harlot Babylon, a time in which the papacy’s power is broken by the Protestant’s disestablishment of religion, which has been the history for some two-hundred years.

The question arises, how is my work relevant to today’s society? My work’s relevance for today’s society is rediscovering what Christ meant when he declared his people as a light to the world and a city set on a hill. At no time in history has it been more relevant to grasp that declaration’s intent and to fulfill it. Indeed, my work is the history of how the Church lost that place in society.

[1] Tommaso Maria Zigliara, Summa philosophica in usum scholarum, Vol. 3, (Paris G. Beauchesne, 1910), 316; article is translated by Timothy Wilson for The Josias.com, On the Subordination of the State to the Church

[2] Gerhard Pfandl, Daniel: The Seer of Babylon, Review & Herald Publishing (July 1, 2004), 80

[3] Marsue and Jerry Huerta, Thy Kingdom Come: Re-evaluating the Historicist’s Interpretation of the Revelation, iUniverse (December 28, 2018), 291

[4] George McCready Price, Time of the End (Southern Pub. Association; 1st edition, 1967), 33.

[5] E. Gregory Wallace, Justifying Religious Freedom: The Western Tradition, Penn State Law Review, Vol. 114, No. 2, 2009, 536.

(PDF) Re-evaluating the Historicist's Interpretation of the Revelation | Jerry Huerta - Academia.edu
 
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Moellerhaus – Premillennial Violence

A site promoting Amil Historicism listed above.

There is a rule in logic; exceptions do not establish rules; the norm establishes them. Amillennialists normally promote Idealism. An amillennialist trying to promote historicism runs into all sorts of fallacies, more than postmillennialists that attempt the same.
 
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JM

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Amillennialists do not promote Protestant Historicism!
There is a rule in logic; exceptions do not establish rules; the norm establishes them. Amillennialists normally promote Idealism. An amillennialist trying to promote historicism runs into all sorts of fallacies, more than postmillennialists that attempt the same.
Logically your ABSOLUTE statement in the first quote contradicts the statement you made in the second.

Burn lol
 
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