CDC updates guidance, recommends vaccinated people wear masks indoors in certain areas

[ThisIsMe123]

In NY 40% of teachers are not vaccinated. Yet they want to mask up our kids to protect those who refuse despite the fact that there is no evidence the kids are major vectors.

Right, but out of abundance of caution, wouldn't you rather your children wear masks anyway?

This is like saying, "There's no evidence that masks protect you, so I shouldn't wear one!"

 

[Aldebaran]

We'd be like other countries who actually had taken the virus seriously, and not scream "My rights are being violated!" Some of the other countries look at the United States and just shake their heads. They are better examples than we are.

That's what they no doubt thought before they became the next pandemic epicenter.

 

[probinson]

Right, but out of abundance of caution, wouldn't you rather your children wear masks anyway?

No. What I would really like to see is some RCTs on masking in children to determine if there is any benefit in it whatsoever, and also if there are unintended consequences, particularly in younger children.

For reference, here is a chart showing actual mortality in children;

Source: Kids, Covid and Delta

So by your logic should we also prohibit children from riding in any vehicles and not allow them to swim, out of an abundance of caution, since those things carry a higher risk of mortality to them than COVID?

 

[ThisIsMe123]

No. What I would really like to see is some RCTs on masking in children to determine if there is any benefit in it whatsoever, and also if there are unintended consequences, particularly in younger children.

For reference, here is a chart showing actual mortality in children;

View attachment 303370
Source: Kids, Covid and Delta

So by your logic should we also prohibit children from riding in any vehicles and not allow them to swim, out of an abundance of caution, since those things carry a higher risk of mortality to them than COVID?

It's just a mask man, no need to whip out the charts! lol

 

[probinson]

That's what they no doubt thought before they became the next pandemic epicenter.

Like Thailand. Anyone old enough to remember when everyone was talking about how wonderful Thailand was and how the US should heed their lessons and how they prevented the pandemic from getting a foothold? There are countless examples of places keeping COVID "under control". Until it's not.

It's a really fascinating read. The article has not aged well, to say the least. Here's an excerpt;

The cooperation of ordinary citizens has played a key role in containing the epidemic. According to one study, 95 percent of Thais are wearing masks in public during the pandemic, the highest rate in Southeast Asia. Over the past few years, wearing masks has become common practice in Bangkok because of its terrible air pollution from heavy vehicle traffic, industrial emissions, and farmers burning fields to prepare them for planting. I have several masks at home, including a proper respirator with twin N95 filters to use for the days when it hurts to breathe the air. Surgical masks are readily available at convenience stores, although for a brief period early in the pandemic people hoarded them to export overseas or sell locally at exorbitant prices. The public is strict about mask wearing. If I forget to wear one, the “aunties” on the streets glare at me intensely, making me run back home in shame to grab a mask.

A look inside Thailand, which prevented coronavirus from gaining a foothold​

 

[probinson]

It's just a mask man, no need to whip out the charts! lol

See, this is the core difference between you and me. You want people to mask up, and you don't seem to really care if it actually works. That way we can claim that we're "doing something", with no regard to whether or not the "something" is actually helping.

Cloth face masks are 'comfort blankets' that do little to curb Covid spread, Scientist warns

We have had 18. MONTHS. to determine what works and what doesn't. And we know nothing more today about NPIs than we did before the pandemic began.

In 1984, Daniel J. Boorstin was quoted in the Washington Post saying, "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." And that is why 18 months into the pandemic, we have fully vaccinated people at infinitesimal risk wearing masks again.

 

[pitabread]

We'd be like other countries who actually had taken the virus seriously, and not scream "My rights are being violated!" Some of the other countries look at the United States and just shake their heads. They are better examples than we are.

As a Canadian, the general sentiment here is we're dumbfounded by how things have unfolded in the U.S.

 

[pitabread]

We know nothing more about the efficacy of masks, social distancing, lockdowns, and that fault rests on the self-assuredness of public health official who unilaterally decided that they would just implement these measures indefinitely with no data or evidence to prove their efficacy.

There is quite a bit of analysis in the literature regarding various measures, so it's a not really valid to suggest we know "nothing more" in this context.

This again seems to be a case of extreme, black & white thinking; whereby imperfect or incomplete information is viewed as being effectively worthless. The reality is we will never have perfect and complete information, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate what we do have.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

See, this is the core difference between you and me. You want people to mask up, and you don't seem to really care if it actually works. .

I do know it works. I've done the research since back when it all started.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

As a Canadian, the general sentiment here is we're dumbfounded by how things have unfolded in the U.S.

As well you should be...and I live among the willfully ignorant (in Florida) where I live.

 

[probinson]

There is quite a bit of analysis in the literature regarding various measures, so it's a not really valid to suggest we know "nothing more" in this context.

Yes, there is a lot of extremely low quality evidence, and lots of laboratory studies and mechanistic explanations of aerosols and droplets. There is no data that indicates that masking the general public is beneficial. And we're dealing with humans here, not mannequins in a booth in a controlled laboratory environment.

This again seems to be a case of extreme, black & white thinking; whereby imperfect or incomplete information is viewed as being effectively worthless. The reality is we will never have perfect and complete information, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate what we do have.

Many studies have documented the flow of particles in and around masks, and countless studies have examined the differences between locations that implemented mask mandates and locations that did not. While this information is interesting, it is often conflicting, and worse, does not offer a sufficient basis for public health recommendations. Mechanistic studies are incapable of anticipating and tallying the effects that emerge when real people are asked to do real things in the real world.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/93803​

 

[probinson]

I do know it works. I've done the research since back when it all started.

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

 

[pitabread]

Yes, there is a lot of extremely low quality evidence, and lots of laboratory studies and mechanistic explanations of aerosols and droplets. There is no data that indicates that masking the general public is beneficial. And we're dealing with humans here, not mannequins in a booth in a controlled laboratory environment.

Many studies have documented the flow of particles in and around masks, and countless studies have examined the differences between locations that implemented mask mandates and locations that did not. While this information is interesting, it is often conflicting, and worse, does not offer a sufficient basis for public health recommendations. Mechanistic studies are incapable of anticipating and tallying the effects that emerge when real people are asked to do real things in the real world.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/93803​

Again, you're just complaining about imperfect knowledge. Yes, we don't have perfect knowledge. I'm not sure what your actual point is.

(I'm also skeptical of your handwaving dismissals of, well, everything it seems. I've been seeing more than a little confirmation bias in your postings.)

 

[probinson]

Again, you're just complaining about imperfect knowledge. Yes, we don't have perfect knowledge. I'm not sure what your actual point is.

My question is, why is there not better knowledge? That's also the point of the article I've linked. Why has no one bothered to determine which NPIs actually have an appreciable benefit and under which circumstances? Why do we just keep throwing up our hands and saying, ah well, the knowledge is imperfect, so slap a mask on your face and hope for the best? Surely we can do better than that.

(I'm also skeptical of your handwaving dismissals of, well, everything it seems. I've been seeing more than a little confirmation bias in your postings.)

That's fine. I'm skeptical of you classifying my posts "handwaving dismissals" instead of actually addressing any of the verifiable information in them.

And as far as confirmation bias, take a good hard look in the mirror, my friend.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

My question is, why is there not better knowledge? That's also the point of the article I've linked. Why has no one bothered to determine which NPIs actually have an appreciable benefit and under which circumstances? Why do we just keep throwing up our hands and saying, ah well, the knowledge is imperfect, so slap a mask on your face and hope for the best? Surely we can do better than that.

So I guess those people in the medical field, like surgeons, wear masks for? ( example the old TV Show MASH) wearing masks for what reason then?

It was used in 1910 China to prevent spreading disease.

By the way, that's just an opinion piece...nothing more.

 

[probinson]

So I guess those people in the medical field, like surgeons, wear masks for? ( example the old TV Show MASH) wearing masks for what reason then?

It certainly isn't for stopping viral spread (emphasis added).

The evidence base investigating the effects of facemask usage on patient-based outcomes is, in general, more extensive than that of surgeon-centred outcomes. Facemasks do have a clear role in maintaining the social cleanliness of surgical staff, but evidence is lacking to suggest that they confer protection from infection either to patients or to the surgeons that wear them.

Unmasking the surgeons: the evidence base behind the use of facemasks in surgery​

 

[probinson]

By the way, that's just an opinion piece...nothing more.

I guess that's a convenient way to dismiss it without addressing any of the extremely valid points in Dr. Prasad's op-ed.

Let the illusion of knowledge continue!

 

[pitabread]

My question is, why is there not better knowledge?

Because the real world is exceptionally complex and highly dynamic. All scientific hypotheses, studies, models, etc., are all simplifications of that reality and consequently are invariably imperfect.

That doesn't necessarily invalidate knowledge gleaned from those methods. It just means that we don't and will never have 100% perfect knowledge.

 

[Aldebaran]

Like Thailand. Anyone old enough to remember when everyone was talking about how wonderful Thailand was and how the US should heed their lessons and how they prevented the pandemic from getting a foothold? There are countless examples of places keeping COVID "under control". Until it's not.

View attachment 303371

It's a really fascinating read. The article has not aged well, to say the least. Here's an excerpt;

The cooperation of ordinary citizens has played a key role in containing the epidemic. According to one study, 95 percent of Thais are wearing masks in public during the pandemic, the highest rate in Southeast Asia. Over the past few years, wearing masks has become common practice in Bangkok because of its terrible air pollution from heavy vehicle traffic, industrial emissions, and farmers burning fields to prepare them for planting. I have several masks at home, including a proper respirator with twin N95 filters to use for the days when it hurts to breathe the air. Surgical masks are readily available at convenience stores, although for a brief period early in the pandemic people hoarded them to export overseas or sell locally at exorbitant prices. The public is strict about mask wearing. If I forget to wear one, the “aunties” on the streets glare at me intensely, making me run back home in shame to grab a mask.

A look inside Thailand, which prevented coronavirus from gaining a foothold​

This should serve as an education tool for the scientists who continue to push mask-wearing, especially for the already vaccinated. But it seems that the only scientists the MSM will promote are the ones who advocate for more actions to mandate by government, regardless of whether or not it's been proven effective.

 

[pitabread]

I guess that's a convenient way to dismiss it without addressing any of the extremely valid points in Dr. Prasad's op-ed.

Let the illusion of knowledge continue!

You've dismissed thousands of published works in the same fashion. Why lend any more credence to this particular article than anything else?

What is your criteria for determining what is credible?