Israel - Vaccination Rate Doesn’t Seem To Impact The Infection Rate

[Ophiolite]

What data are you looking at? Our UK death rate in comparison to infection rate had plummeted compared to what it was pre vaccine.

The last time we hit 40,000 new infections per day (January time), we had a 7 day average of over 1000 deaths per day. This time we have hit 40,000 new infections a day with a 7 day average of 55 deaths per day

Unfortunately you are relying upon facts, whereas a currently much more popular approach is to use anecdotes, supposition, rumour, speculation and contrived rhetoric.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you'd rather listen to the AP than one of the inventors of mRNA vaccine technology?

By the way, the pro-vaxxers are so desperate to get jabs into everyone, they even re-wrote Wikipedia to remove the inventor's name. But I suppose you'll just apply your Genetic Logical Fallacy to that too.

I give up. There's none so blind as those who will not see.

P.S. There's no such thing as totally impartial media. The idea that you're waiting for a source that doesn't 'lean right or left' is laughable.


You should know by now that nobody who is even a tiny bit sceptical of covid vaccines ever gets media time or space. The fact that the MSM don't want to listen to the person who invented mRNA vaccines tells you just how corrupt the MSM are.


LOL! You really don't get it do you!


I started a thread on that.

LOL, just give up on trying to falsely accuse others of logical fallacies. You only harm your case by making your own.

EDIT: Dr. Malone himself does not claim to have invented the mRNA vaccine:

False: Dr. Robert Malone invented mRNA vaccines.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So you'd rather listen to the AP than one of the inventors of mRNA vaccine technology?

By the way, the pro-vaxxers are so desperate to get jabs into everyone, they even re-wrote Wikipedia to remove the inventor's name. But I suppose you'll just apply your Genetic Logical Fallacy to that too.

I give up. There's none so blind as those who will not see.

P.S. There's no such thing as totally impartial media. The idea that you're waiting for a source that doesn't 'lean right or left' is laughable.


You should know by now that nobody who is even a tiny bit sceptical of covid vaccines ever gets media time or space. The fact that the MSM don't want to listen to the person who invented mRNA vaccines tells you just how corrupt the MSM are.


LOL! You really don't get it do you!


I started a thread on that.

You appear to be using peer pressure arguments popular amongst grade schoolers to try and get me to change my opinion of your source.

And are using conspiracy rhetoric on top of that, so it basically there's no reason to trust what you are saying in particular. However, I will wait for more conclusive evidence later on.

 

[JustSomeBloke]

What data are you looking at? Our UK death rate in comparison to infection rate had plummeted compared to what it was pre vaccine.

The last time we hit 40,000 new infections per day (January time), we had a 7 day average of over 1000 deaths per day. This time we have hit 40,000 new infections a day with a 7 day average of 55 deaths per day

Unfortunately your argument is probably invalid, because you may be unknowingly comparing apples with oranges. A reduction in deaths is only relevant if you assume that the lethality of the most dominant variants in circulation has remained constant from the start. But basic virology teaches us that as viruses mutate, the most dominant variants will be the ones that are more infectious and less lethal. That is logical because dead people don't usually walk around coughing, sneezing, and infecting others, so highly lethal variants don't spread very easily or become the dominant variant. Therefore, it is highly likely that the dominant variants now are more infectious and less lethal than the initial variants. Ergo, the lethality has probably not remained constant, and your comparison of number of deaths is quite likely invalid.

Unfortunately you are relying upon facts, whereas a currently much more popular approach is to use anecdotes, supposition, rumour, speculation and contrived rhetoric.

It's a pity you didn't spot the obvious hole in the argument.

My data and analysis was good from that point of view, because I only considered deaths due to one covid variant (delta), so I didn't need to make wild, unsupported assumptions about constant lethality.

 

[Ophiolite]

It's a pity you didn't spot the obvious hole in the argument.

My observation is that you do not have so much an argument as an agenda.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The data reported by Trial Site News in the OP is real. It has been reported in the Washington Post and elsewhere. However the analysis of that data is incomplete. Here is a more complete analysis.

What the OP analysis failed to consider is that among the few unvaccinated remaining in Israel, many of them have already contracted covid some time in the past year and recovered. These also have immunity similar to the vaccine. So comparing the infection rates in the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated is actually comparing one kind of immunity vs another kind of immunity. Those that contracted covid and died over the course of the previous year are conveniently removed from the statistic. Because so many people in Israel are partially immune, either from the vaccine or from recovering from covid, the statistics cited do not actually reflect the relative effectiveness of the vaccine. That can only be assessed in a population in which the majority of the people have never had covid. That does not describe Israel, although it does describe most other places on the planet.

 

[whatbogsends]

The objective of the vaccine is not to reduce infection rate.

Its to reduce the rate of people needing to be hospitalized and under oxygen support

Then why are people claiming that it is the unvaccinated that continue the spread of the coronavirus?

If infection happens at equal rates in the vaccinated and unvaccinated, then the only factor in reducing the spread of coronavirus is reducing/limiting being in situations which spread the disease.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then why are people claiming that it is the unvaccinated that continue the spread of the coronavirus?

If infection happens at equal rates in the vaccinated and unvaccinated, then the only factor in reducing the spread of coronavirus is reducing/limiting being in situations which spread the disease.

The data that I have seen does not support that. The vaccinated get the disease at a far lower rate than the unvaccinated do. That does not mean that some vaccinated people will not get it.

Statistically, the unvaccinated are a risk to everyone as a result.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Then why are people claiming that it is the unvaccinated that continue the spread of the coronavirus?

When the majority of unvaccinated people have never had covid-19, they do indeed account for the bulk of new infections. But in Israel, there are only a few unvaccinated left, and of those many have already had covid, so they are not as likely to be infected again. That explains their unusual statistics. It is not true that infections happen at equal rates in the vaccinated and the unvaccinated when most of the unvaccinated have not yet had covid.

 

[whatbogsends]

The data that I have seen does not support that. The vaccinated get the disease at a far lower rate than the unvaccinated do. That does not mean that some vaccinated people will not get it.

Statistically, the unvaccinated are a risk to everyone as a result.

Then you might want to work on clearing up that misconception with the pro-vaxx folks, because 2 of them made that claim in this thread, and at least one other agrees with it.

It seems that "following the science" is much less straightforward than you folks claim...

Statistically, those that convene in crowded, indoor spaces will spread the virus more, vaccinated or not, and those who social distance, limit social contact, and mask appropriate will spread the virus less.

 

[whatbogsends]

When the majority of unvaccinated people have never had covid-19, they do indeed account for the bulk of new infections. But in Israel, there are only a few unvaccinated left, and of those many have already had covid, so they are not as likely to be infected again. That explains their unusual statistics. It is not true that infections happen at equal rates in the vaccinated and the unvaccinated when most of the unvaccinated have not yet had covid.

You talk about two factors (vaccinated/unvaccinated and previously infected/not previously infected).

In Israel, vaccinated/unvaccinated doesn't appear to be impacting infection rates. You are making a claim about infection rates without supporting data. Do you have data which shows that the unvaccinated in Israel have a higher rate of previous infection than the vaccinated?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You talk about two factors (vaccinated/unvaccinated and previously infected/not previously infected).

In Israel, vaccinated/unvaccinated doesn't appear to be impacting infection rates. You are making a claim about infection rates without supporting data. Do you have data which shows that the unvaccinated in Israel have a higher rate of previous infection than the vaccinated?

No, I agree with the data as presented. I am just offering an alternate explanation of that same data.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm also reading concerning data from the UK and Israel. Both countries share one characteristic: early vaccination. They started vaccinating their populations early and now immunity seems to be waning out.

Even though studies show that vaccines, especially mRNA vaccines, are effective against the delta variant, we expected that immunity would be short-lived. In fact, Pfizer admitted this fact and is already applying for approval of booster shots.

As far as AZ and J&J vaccines are concerned, they're significantly less effective against delta variant.

Coronavirus in Israel: What do we know about the 143 hospitalized people?

15 out of 20 who were fully vaccinated died. Not encouraging

 

[ripple the car]

Having done some similar analysis myself on the UK data, and found a less than compelling case for vaccination, I can't say I'm really surprised to find that the same type of analysis on Israeli data suggests that the vaccines might not be very effective.

An initial review of the data surprised the analysts. A summary follows a review of some examples. The first one reveals the week of June 27th to July 3rd in the age cohort 20-29 years old. According to the data in this cohort, those new COVID-19 cases involving individuals fully vaccinated totaled 79%. How about the percentage of this population that’s fully vaccinated? It turns out to be 78%, indicating that at least for this cohort, the vaccination rate doesn’t seem to impact the infection rate.


In another cohort, aged 30-39 from the week of June 27th to July 3rd, the new COVID-19 cases percentage involving people fully vaccinated came out at 80% while the percentage of the population in that age group fully vaccinated came in at 83%.


In yet another example from the week of July 27th to July 3rd in the 40-49 years old age group, new COVID-19 cases involving fully vaccinated people totaled 84%, and the percentage of the population in this age group that were fully vaccinated stood at 86%.

A breakdown for all age groups is given in the table below:

The complete article can be read by clicking here.

Yep. Delta’s wigglin’ around everything.

These vaccines are not a silver bullet. They may give some protection, but they’re not fool-proof. We have placed too much trust in them, and our media, and so-called “experts”, and not enough trust in God.

 

[pitabread]

Or maybe the trials were crooked, and the vaccines never really worked. One of the trials was performed entirely by Israeli Ministry of Health employees and pharmaceuticals employees. The vested interests were painfully obvious

So are we to assume that all the world's biotech companies and regulatory bodies are part of some global vaccine cabal?

Sorry, but I can't buy into that level of paranoia.

 

[Guojing]

Then why are people claiming that it is the unvaccinated that continue the spread of the coronavirus?

If infection happens at equal rates in the vaccinated and unvaccinated, then the only factor in reducing the spread of coronavirus is reducing/limiting being in situations which spread the disease.

The ongoing theory is that the virus mutate in unvaccinated people, rather than those vaccinated.

Unvaccinated people are 'variant factories,' infectious diseases expert says - CNN

 

[Blade]

They say 58% are vaccinated.

 

[FireDragon76]

Unfortunately your argument is probably invalid, because you may be unknowingly comparing apples with oranges. A reduction in deaths is only relevant if you assume that the lethality of the most dominant variants in circulation has remained constant from the start. But basic virology teaches us that as viruses mutate, the most dominant variants will be the ones that are more infectious and less lethal.

Basic virology teaches nothing of the sort.

Viruses can evolve to be more deadly

The so-called "Law of Declining Virulence" is based on little more than the flawed conjectures from one scientist, over 140 years ago:

Will coronavirus really evolve to become less deadly?

 

[FireDragon76]

So are we to assume that all the world's biotech companies and regulatory bodies are part of some global vaccine cabal?

Sorry, but I can't buy into that level of paranoia.

It's worse than that, it's thinly veiled antisemitism. How else does the Israeli ministry of health's approval morph into a global conspiracy?

 

[ThisIsMe123]

The main point of vaccination is to reduce the death rate. Vaccinated people can still become infected and even spread the virus, even if the viral load and severity of illness is lower. But they are much less likely to end up in the hospital or ICU, which is important for lowering overall mortality and economic damage.

Yeah, this is the part I don't get. People should know this, but they are like 'See, you can still get infected EVEN with the vaccine!" and thusly, they figured it's best NOT to get vaccinated.

This is basic common sense regarding vaccines, like with the Flu vaccine, it just decreases the severity of disease.