Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[RickReads]

The goal of forgiveness is not to change the behavior of the one you have forgiven. That would be a wrong motive.

True, I just thought that since you brought it up I would mention the purpose of forgiveness.

My forgiveness benefits me spiritually. It most likely does nothing for you.

 

[AV1611VET]

SS, which do you believe?

1. We are all the children of God, and will all end up in Heaven.
2. We are all children of someone (Allah, Gaea, et.al.), but will end up in Heaven with God.
3. Neither.

If I remember correctly, you believe Jesus and Allah and Gaea and Ahura Mazda and ten thousand others are all the same.

 

[Saint Steven]

This one is too easy Steve. You got any that would be a challenge?

I said it would be easy.
But I was only required to show you a contradiction which I did. And as predicted, you refuse what it plainly says. And completely sidestep the fact that it is a conditional statement. (per Public Hermit) All = All

There is also a contradiction between Annihilationism and Damnationism.
Annihilationism claims that the lost will cease to exist.
Damnationism claims they will suffer for eternity.
Can you gloss over that as well? (of course you can) Go for it.

 

[RickReads]

I said it would be easy.
But I was only required to show you a contradiction which I did. And as predicted, you refuse what it plainly says. And completely sidestep the fact that it is a conditional statement. (per Public Hermit) All = All

There is also a contradiction between Annihilationism and Damnationism.
Annihilationism claims that the lost will cease to exist.
Damnationism claims they will suffer for eternity.
Can you gloss over that as well? (of course you can) Go for it.

Or, How can you be made alive in Christ without being born again?

There is no "you" in this, it`s just about what the Bible said for me.

 

[Saint Steven]

SS, which do you believe?

1. We are all the children of God, and will all end up in Heaven.
2. We are all children of someone (Allah, Gaea, et.al.), but will end up in Heaven with God.
3. Neither.

If I remember correctly, you believe Jesus and Allah and Gaea and Ahura Mazda and ten thousand others are all the same.

Number one would be closer to my position.

I mentioned earlier (something like) if I was born in India my perception of God would be different. (based on the religious culture of India)

 

[RickReads]

I said it would be easy.
But I was only required to show you a contradiction which I did. And as predicted, you refuse what it plainly says. And completely sidestep the fact that it is a conditional statement. (per Public Hermit) All = All

There is also a contradiction between Annihilationism and Damnationism.
Annihilationism claims that the lost will cease to exist.
Damnationism claims they will suffer for eternity.
Can you gloss over that as well? (of course you can) Go for it.

Problem is, the little pokes you have the need to take shuts down the dialogue. Your goal it seems.

 

[Saint Steven]

Or, How can you be made alive in Christ without being born again?

There is no "you" in this, it`s just about what the Bible said for me.

As predicted, I showed you contradictions and you glossed over them.
And you sidestepped this one completely. See below.

Those in the afterlife will most certainly be born again before entering heaven.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I said it would be easy.
But I was only required to show you a contradiction which I did. And as predicted, you refuse what it plainly says. And completely sidestep the fact that it is a conditional statement. (per Public Hermit) All = All

There is also a contradiction between Annihilationism and Damnationism.
Annihilationism claims that the lost will cease to exist.
Damnationism claims they will suffer for eternity.
Can you gloss over that as well? (of course you can) Go for it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Problem is, the little pokes you have the need to take shuts down the dialogue. Your goal it seems.

If that is true, it is certainly not working. - lol

Maybe you are being oversensitive if you can't handle a little poke?

 

[RickReads]

As predicted, I showed you contradictions and you glossed over them.
And you sidestepped this one completely. See below.

Those in the afterlife will most certainly be born again before entering heaven.
Saint Steven said: ↑
I said it would be easy.
But I was only required to show you a contradiction which I did. And as predicted, you refuse what it plainly says. And completely sidestep the fact that it is a conditional statement. (per Public Hermit) All = All

There is also a contradiction between Annihilationism and Damnationism.
Annihilationism claims that the lost will cease to exist.
Damnationism claims they will suffer for eternity.
Can you gloss over that as well? (of course you can) Go for it.

But can you produce any scripture to support your claim? Your proclamations have no credibility with me without it. So far you have produced nothing.

 

[Servus]

What do you think? Is it?

What about someone that is a massmurderer, that lived his/her whole life to serve evil? Is it justice giving this person an eternal sentence?

What if he they became a born again Christian shortly before death?

 

[RickReads]

If that is true, it is certainly not working. - lol

Maybe you are being oversensitive if you can't handle a little poke?

I can handle it just fine but it tends to put me out of the mood to share scriptures.

 

[AV1611VET]

Number one would be closer to my position.

I mentioned earlier (something like) if I was born in India my perception of God would be different. (based on the religious culture of India)

Okay, thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

But can you produce any scripture to support your claim? Your proclamations have no credibility with me without it. So far you have produced nothing.

You have to understand that you are asking me to prove Universalism with a Damnationist biased Bible translation.We are fortunate to have what little slipped through the cracks to work with. And frankly, I don't need to convince anyone. If you want to understand this the way I do, you will need to do some reading of the authors that do a much better job of explaining these things than I do. But what would be the point of that? Your mind is already made up.

Personally, I think there is some intellectual dishonesty not to look into these things, but to rather just gloss over them. This verse below stopped me in my tracks. Why does it say it this way?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Saint Steven]

I can handle it just fine but it tends to put me out of the mood to share scriptures.

You have to be "in the mood" to share scriptures? - lol

Knocked out of the saddle that easily? Wow.

Have you been PMing with Roxanne?
There is something familiar about this whole thing.
She has sent others to plague me several times in the past. (over 10 years)
Are you her latest pawn?

 

[RickReads]

You have to understand that you are asking me to prove Universalism with a Damnationist biased Bible translation.We are fortunate to have what little slipped through the cracks to work with. And frankly, I don't need to convince anyone. If you want to understand this the way I do, you will need to do some reading of the authors that do a much better job of explaining these things than I do. But what would be the point of that? Your mind is already made up.

Personally, I think there is some intellectual dishonesty not to look into these things, but to rather just gloss over them. This verse below stopped me in my tracks. Why does it say it this way?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I`ve looked at Universalism on and off for years and I understand you better than you think. If I seem to be its enemy then your attitude is the cause and no, my mind is not made up. The Bible says He will have mercy on whom He will. If He so chooses that can be universal salvation right there.

As for your verse, yes the sins of the whole world have been atoned for. But I believe that you have to seek the atonement in order to receive it.

You have to go downtown and pick up your gift. Some will not do that.

 

[RickReads]

You have to be "in the mood" to share scriptures? - lol

Knocked out of the saddle that easily? Wow.

Have you been PMing with Roxanne?
There is something familiar about this whole thing.
She has sent others to plague me several times in the past. (over 10 years)
Are you her latest pawn?

No Steve but I can certainly see how you could generate that kind of animosity

 

[Saint Steven]

No Steve but I can certainly see how you could generate that kind of animosity

Imagine what it would be like on an unmoderated secular forum. - lol
I'm showing some amazing restraint here.

 

[zoidar]

In a way, this is actually a proof for Universalism.

Though we should certainly uphold justice in a general way, this evil desire for sadistic retribution is of satanic origin.

People want the mass-murderer you mentioned to "really suffer" for their crime. Thinking that justice is somehow better served if they witness their agony.

In this spirit (by this spirit), humankind has devised all sorts of cruel tortures and execution methods and devises. And in ancient times this same spirit directed atrocities on innocent conquered peoples.

What would drive a conquering nation to impale their innocent victims (those who had not been run through with swords) and keep all the virgin women and children for slaves?

In most of the world today, a capital punishment is life in prison. How many lifetimes is an eternal punishment? Hard to imagine anything so vindictive, cruel, or sadistic as that.

What sort of monster would create such a mechanism? To keep burning human souls alive to suffer for all eternity with no hope of escape. Frankly, anyone in that situation would be ready to repent in ten seconds.

And how could we enjoy heaven knowing this is going on down in the dungeon? And perhaps to some of our own loved ones. What's to say that we will not join them at some point?

Saint Steven said: ↑
I question the source of the "want" for justice.
And is either annihilation or damnation really justice?

I have heard some Christians say that God is upholding hell and that God is the one in command of hell. I don't share that view. I see hell as what is where God isn't.

To take pleasure in criminals suffering for their crime, and the more they suffer the better, I agree is barbaric. I just get sad, that's all, knowing God will render the murderers what is due.

 

[RickReads]

Imagine what it would be like on an unmoderated secular forum. - lol
I'm showing some amazing restraint here.

I don`t think that`s anything to laugh about or boast about. If a message board is going to cause you to sin then you should probably stay away from it.

 

[Saint Steven]

As for your verse, yes the sins of the whole world have been atoned for. But I believe that you have to seek the atonement in order to receive it.

We all choose which lens to view the Bible through. The lens you choose tells you what it means. The plain reading doesn't matter. If you aren't sure, there are apologetics to make it say whatever you want.

For me, the bottom line is what my doctrine of the final judgment says about God's character. The God that requires us to love our enemies should do the same.


Colossians 2:13-15 NIV
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.