JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[HARK!]

SHABBAT SHALOM!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

HAPPY SABBATH ALL!

 

[HARK!]

I'm assuming you posted this too? I know @LoveGodsWord has as well and today when I was in my car listening to a sermon, the preacher was making this exact point too.

I came to this realization many years ago; and I approached my Pastor with this logical argument, which led to the question:


If sin is transgression of the law; and the law has been abolished; then there is no law.

If there is no law; then there is no sin.

If there is no sin; then what need have I of grace?

He was speechless.

I started a thread on the subject here:

What Need I of Grace?

Christopher Enoch recently created an entertaining video regarding this subject.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Do you have such a list? I think it would save us a lot of time!

Read Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10. Do you still make animal sacrifices and seek out a Levite Priest every time you sin? If not why not?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sin was transgression of the laws contained in the Sinai covenant for one nation, Israel. God didn't make the laws of the Sinai covenant with any other people on Earth.

My question is why do some well-meaning people try to change what God did? Since God didn't impose the laws of the Sinai covenant on other people why are some people still trying to do what the Judaizers were doing to the Galatians and other early Christians? "You foolish Galatians....."


There are laws, Jesus ended the Sinai covenant at Calvary and ratified the new covenant with His own blood. Love is what Jesus commanded for all mankind. Man is to love man like Jesus loves us. That is God's law for everyone. Jesus became High Priest in the new covenant.


Strawman argument.

I would have been too if I didn't understand the new covenant and how it differs from the one that ended at Calvary.

Since you apparently believe everyone was subject to the covenant given to Israel at Sinai you need to know that there was not one word in that covenant that provided man salvation. Salvation was and never will be by how well we keep laws. Salvation has always been by God's Grace. Jn3: 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

Abraham believed and because he believed God granted him His Grace. Moses revealed all of this to us and I am sure he told the Israelites that their salvation would also come by believing.

According to the scriptures in the new covenant, Gods' ISRAEL are no longer those in the flesh but all those who are now born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' Word *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29 and Romans 2:28-29. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant you have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27 and we are all now one in Christ *Ephesians 2:11-15; Galatians 3:28. Therefore all the Word of God is for all those who now believe and follow Gods' Word. (need more scripture?). According to the scriptures Bob, sin still is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 because it is only through the law that we have the knowledge of what sin is according to Paul in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7. That is why Paul says that the law is holy, just and good in Romans 7:12 and why James says if we knowingly break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. Of course God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is if we willfully break it once God gives us the knowledge of what is Word says (James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 5:29). According to John those who practice sin which is defined as breaking anyone of Gods laws - 1 John 3:4) and those who do not practice sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.

Something to pray about.

 

[Leaf473]

I came to this realization many years ago; and I approached my Pastor with this logical argument, which led to the question:


If sin is transgression of the law; and the law has been abolished; then there is no law.

If there is no law; then there is no sin.

If there is no sin; then what need have I of grace?

He was speechless.

I started a thread on the subject here:

What Need I of Grace?

Christopher Enoch recently created an entertaining video regarding this subject.

Hi HARK! ,
I hope you don't mind if I jump in here

"If sin is transgression of the law,"
Is this the law delivered through Moses? Every single law delivered through Moses?

 

[Danthemailman]

My question is why do some well-meaning people try to change what God did? Since God didn't impose the laws of the Sinai covenant on other people why are some people still trying to do what the Judaizers were doing to the Galatians and other early Christians? "You foolish Galatians....."

You and I know why. Such people are seeking "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

 

[Leaf473]

Read Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10. Do you still make animal sacrifices and seek out a Levite Priest every time you sin? If not why not?

No, I do not make animal sacrifices and seek out a Levite Priest every time I sin.

There are a whole lot of laws delivered through Moses that are not related to animal sacrifices. Are they all on the list of eternal laws?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You and I know why. Such people are seeking "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

This is how it works according to scriptures:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

It's God's gift to give or not based on Jesus righteous judgement

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Revelations 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You and I know why. Such people are seeking "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

According to the scriptures, faith without works according to James is the dead faith of devils and not saving faith at all according to James in James 2:17-26. That is why those who say Lord Lord but continue in a life of known unrepentant sin do not enter into the Kingdom of heaven at the second coming according to Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23. Therefore according to the scripture faith does not abolish Gods' law according to Paul in Romans 3:31 it establishes Gods' law in the lives of all those who believe and follow God's Word. As posted to someone earlier, according to John those who practice sin which is defined as breaking anyone of Gods laws - 1 John 3:4) and those who do not practice sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.

Yep something to pray about.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, I do not make animal sacrifices and seek out a Levite Priest every time I sin. There are a whole lot of laws delivered through Moses that are not related to animal sacrifices. Are they all on the list of eternal laws?

So these laws were temporary? What does Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 say?

 

[HARK!]

Hi HARK! ,
I hope you don't mind if I jump in here

"If sin is transgression of the law,"
Is this the law delivered through Moses? Every single law delivered through Moses?

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring
(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

 

[HARK!]

Do you still make animal sacrifices and seek out a Levite Priest every time you sin? If not why not?

First off, I'm not in the land. I'm in exile; as YHWH has not called his people back into the land. As such, the Levitical Priesthood is not practicing at this time. They will however be practicing in the kingdom to come.

The Levitical Priesthood was not practicing the last time that Israel was in exile, as Israel (Yah's people) were not in the land.

By the way, there is no offering for intentional sin; so even if the Levitical Priesthood was practicing; can you show me in scripture where one would make a sacrifice for intentional sin?

I created an extensive study on this subject starting here:

YHWH's Table (Part 1)

You might find it to be helpful in your study of this subject; and I would invite you to contribute to that study.

It's broken down into multiple sections; so that each facet of what is brought to YHWH's table can be studied independently.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

First off, I'm not in the land. I'm in exile; as YHWH has not called his people back into the land. As such, the Levitical Priesthood is not practicing at this time. They will however be practicing in the kingdom to come.

The Levitical Priesthood was not practicing the last time that Israel was in exile, as Israel (Yah's people) were not in the land.

By the way, there is no offering for intentional sin; so even if the Levitical Priesthood was practicing; can you show me in scripture where one would make a sacrifice for intentional sin?

I created an extensive study on this subject starting here:

YHWH's Table (Part 1)

You might find it to be helpful in your study of this subject; and I would invite you to contribute to that study.

It's broken down into multiple sections; so that each facet of what is brought to YHWH's table can be studied independently.

The curtain of the temple was rent in two at the death of Jesus. I wonder why that was. Or what was John the baptist talking about in John 1:29? What does Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 say? Are you trying to say that if someone intentionally sinned there was no requirement for animal sacrifice for sin?

 

[HARK!]

The curtain of the temple was rent in two at the death of Jesus. I wonder why that was.

I have several speculations. Why would you bring that up?

What does Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 say?

If you have a point to make; I'd like to review it.

 

[HARK!]

Are you trying to say that if someone intentionally sinned there was no requirement for animal sacrifice for sin?

Can you show me, in YHWH's word, what his instructions are for intentional sin?

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I have several speculations. Why would you bring that up? If you have a point to make; I'd like to review it.

Hello HARK! I think I have made these same points over and over with the scripture previously so not sure if it is worth doing this over and over in this thread. Jesus is now God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *Hebrews 10:10; John 1:29; 36. Jesus is also now our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man of which the earthly was only a copy of the heavenly and Jesus now ministers on our behalf based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6 of the new covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Can you show me, in YHWH's word, what his instructions are for intentional sin?

Sure...

Trespass / guilt offerings” were also primarily for “unintentional sins” (Lev 5:2,3,4,15,17,18), however, there are also examples of “trespass / guilt offerings” being offered for “intentional sins” as well. Here are some examples:

Leviticus 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. (The heading for Chapter 5 is “The Trespass Offering.” Verse 1 seems to clearly be speaking about intentional sin, even though the following 3 verses are clearly about unintentional sin. Then, in Lev 5:5-13, we see that a sacrifice needed to be offered for committing these sins.)

Leviticus 6:1-7 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, (2) If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the Lord, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; (3) Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: (4) Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found, (5) Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering. (6) And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: (7) And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

(Again, verses 1-5 are speaking about intentional sin which was committed, with a “trespass offering” needing to be made and sacrificed to make atonement for that sin.)

Leviticus 19:20-22 ‘Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. (21) He shall bring his guilt offering to the Lord to the doorway of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering. (22) The priest shall also make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed, and the sin which he has committed will be forgiven him.

(Another intentional sin, with a “trespass /guilt offering” needing to be made for atonement.)

(Ezra 10:18-19) And among the sons of the priests there were found that had taken strange wives: namely, of the sons of Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren; Maaseiah, and Eliezer, and Jarib, and Gedaliah. (19) And they gave their hands that they would put away their wives; and being guilty, they offered a ram of the flock for their trespass.

(Also see: Leviticus 1:1-4; Numbers 5:5-10; Numbers 5:11-31)

 

[HARK!]

Hello HARK! I think I have made these same points over and over with the scripture previously so not sure if it is worth doing this over and over in this thread. Jesus is now God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *Hebrews 10:10; John 1:29; 36.

Which "sacrifice" would that be according to YHWH's law?

Please be specific. Please back up your answer with verses from the TaNaK.

1:29; 36. Jesus is also now our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man of which the earthly was only a copy of the heavenly and Jesus now ministers on our behalf based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

(CLV) Hb 8:1
Now this is the sum onof •what is being said~: Such a Chief Priest |have we, Who is seated iat the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

(CLV) Hb 8:2
a Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitches, and not a man.

(CLV) Hb 8:3
For every chief priest is constituted to offer both approach presents and sacrifices. Whence it is necessary for This One also to have something which He may offer.

Are approach presents or sacrifices made by anyone but the High Priest? If so do the approach presents and sacrifices of the High Priest, negate all other approach presents and sacrifices? If you purport this to be so; please support this assertion with scripture.

(CLV) Hb 8:4
Indeed, then, if He were on earth He would not even be a priest, there being those who offer approach presents according to the law

Well, there is my answer. There are others who offer korbanim according to the Torah.

(CLV) Hb 8:5
whoa, by an example and shadow, are offering the divine service of the celestials, according as Moses has been apprized when about to be completing the tabernacle. For see, He is averring, that you shall be making all "in accord with the model shown to you in the mountain."

(CLV) Hb 8:6
Yet now He has happened upon a more excellent ministry, in as much as He is the Mediator, also, of a better covenant, which has been instituted on better promises.

A better covenant (contract), does not negate the Torah. In contract law, any contract that violates the law is null and void. Israel nullified the Mosaic covenant when they violated the Torah (law).

What would make you believe that violating the Torah in the Yahshuaic covenant would yield a different result?

 

[HARK!]

Sure...

Trespass / guilt offerings” were also primarily for “unintentional sins” (Lev 5:2,3,4,15,17,18), however, there are also examples of “trespass / guilt offerings” being offered for “intentional sins” as well. Here are some examples:

Leviticus 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. (The heading for Chapter 5 is “The Trespass Offering.” Verse 1 seems to clearly be speaking about intentional sin, even though the following 3 verses are clearly about unintentional sin. Then, in Lev 5:5-13, we see that a sacrifice needed to be offered for committing these sins.)

Where does Leviticus 5 say that these are intentional sins?

Where does Leviticus 5 mention the High Priest?