Why I'm not a young earth creationist...

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The Righterzpen

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As the saying goes, two rabbis, three opinions. You study all of the works.

LOL - Rabbis (or anyone else's) opinions aren't Scripture. I do read commentaries for historical information sake; but not necessarily theological understanding. There are some theologians I agree with some of what they say. But the only thing I agree that is absolute truth is the Scripture. Now just because I agree that it's absolute truth, doesn't mean I totally understand all of it. But that's my limitation as a human being. I don't possess the mind of God.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Because they believe in the future of humanity?

Because .... YOU believe in the future of humanity?

What exactly does that mean? Do you believe humanity is going to solve all its own problems? Do you believe humanity is the answer to every thing?

You appear to believe in some sort of Deity. And the question remains; how do you know what that deity is? Do you believe humanity is that deity? Are we suppose to "save the earth"? I thought the earth was suppose to tell us about the Creator?

I have to assume you have some realization of how screwed up humanity is. And you want to put your trust in us??? Do you really think.... that's the best place to put your trust?
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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LOL - Rabbis (or anyone else's) opinions aren't Scripture. I do read commentaries for historical information sake; but not necessarily theological understanding. There are some theologians I agree with some of what they say. But the only thing I agree that is absolute truth is the Scripture. Now just because I agree that it's absolute truth, doesn't mean I totally understand all of it. But that's my limitation as a human being. I don't possess the mind of God.
Which is the point, not the inerrancy of scripture but the understanding of which can be improved by looking at information other than your personal understanding.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Which is the point, not the inerrancy of scripture but the understanding of which can be improved by looking at information other than your personal understanding.

Where do you start with though. Do you start with Scripture and look at creation through the lens of Scripture; or... your way is to try and interpret God through the lens of creation. But... even at that, you have no way of knowing if your interpretation is even accurate. You're trying to understand God through your personal understanding of creation. Yet you have no authority to stand on to say that your understanding of creation is even accurate.

On the other hand though; I'm saying that Scripture is absolute truth. And Scripture tells us to interpret Scripture by using Scripture. Interpreting Scripture through Scripture is not my personal understanding. No where have I ever claimed that I perfectly understand Scripture. The only thing I've claimed is that I know that's where the truth is.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Yes! Look at Mt. St Helens. That created a vastly different landscape in a matter of what.... a couple of days.

How are you so sure the geologists have the time table right? We can reasonably observe rock layers WXY and Z stack on top of each other; in a certain pattern, but geologists at best are only guessing when that happened. And how much time between successions did it happen in.

The same geology used to understand the timescales for the formation and change in Mt. St. Helens is used to understand the formation of the Gulf of Mexico, etc.

The geological age of Mt. St. Helens is about 40,000 years. The same techniques give ages of 1/2 million years or a few million years for other volcanoes in the Cascades.

The landscape around Mt. St. Helens was transformed in a few hours, but that area was smaller than the Chicxulub crater which is much smaller than the Gulf of Mexico. This is not evidence for a global transformation on a short time scale. Where is the geology that shows a rapid transformation?
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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Where do you start with though. Do you start with Scripture and look at creation through the lens of Scripture; or... your way is to try and interpret God through the lens of creation. But... even at that, you have no way of knowing if your interpretation is even accurate. You're trying to understand God through your personal understanding of creation. Yet you have no authority to stand on to say that your understanding of creation is even accurate.

On the other hand though; I'm saying that Scripture is absolute truth. And Scripture tells us to interpret Scripture by using Scripture. Interpreting Scripture through Scripture is not my personal understanding. No where have I ever claimed that I perfectly understand Scripture. The only thing I've claimed is that I know that's where the truth is.
Absolute truth is not the question, but how do we recognize it. If we rely only on our own interpretations of the written word by limiting ourselves to scripture, are we not in danger of missing other evidence that might inform us as to what the written word actually means?
 
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Hans Blaster

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On the other hand though; I'm saying that Scripture is absolute truth. And Scripture tells us to interpret Scripture by using Scripture.

We are familiar with circular reasoning.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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Because .... YOU believe in the future of humanity?

What exactly does that mean? Do you believe humanity is going to solve all its own problems? Do you believe humanity is the answer to every thing?

You appear to believe in some sort of Deity. And the question remains; how do you know what that deity is? Do you believe humanity is that deity? Are we suppose to "save the earth"? I thought the earth was suppose to tell us about the Creator?

I have to assume you have some realization of how screwed up humanity is. And you want to put your trust in us??? Do you really think.... that's the best place to put your trust?
Well I give them credit for trying as opposed to your apparent nihilistic attitude that we are all doomed.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The same geology used to understand the timescales for the formation and change in Mt. St. Helens is used to understand the formation of the Gulf of Mexico, etc.

The geological age of Mt. St. Helens is about 40,000 years. The same techniques give ages of 1/2 million years or a few million years for other volcanoes in the Cascades.

The landscape around Mt. St. Helens was transformed in a few hours, but that area was smaller than the Chicxulub crater which is much smaller than the Gulf of Mexico. This is not evidence for a global transformation on a short time scale. Where is the geology that shows a rapid transformation?

But how do you (or they) know that the timescale (the 40,000 years) that they say Mt. St. Helens is; is accurate? They don't know that; because they have no way of testing how "old" magma is.

They make assumption using something like carbon 14 dating after it's erupted and cooled; but how much does the process of molting rock change the elemental composition of that rock? They can't answer that.

Does it accelerate the rate of carbon 14 decay? We know the rate of carbon 14 decay is not consistent across all circumstances. We know this because they've carbon 14 dated live animal samples that the dating says are millions of years old. Well no one believes a clam has a lifespan of a million or more years.

So the fossil layers on the North American plate. (I think there is 4 of them?) We can see in some place like the Grand Canyon that the strata are laid down in even layers. That would not be the case if there were millions or even thousands of years of erosion between the layers.

So seeing how we know the Mt. St Helens current landscape was laid down in a couple of hours; why would one assume the Grand Canyon was laid down / "cut out" in millions of years?

Again, modern evidence (the example being volcanic eruptions) says X; but they look at something like the Grand Canyon and dissociate that from what they see in the modern world.

And that conclusion is based on a particular world view. That's not based on what they know of what would even be considered "recent" history.

There was a global warming "spike" that happened in about 1000 AD. We know this from Medieval records. They were growing vineyards in Scotland. The records talk about ice caps melting and the ocean rising. There are ancient maps that accurately chart the coast of Antartica. Now how's that possible if Antartica has been covered with ice for millions of years?

Blips in the history that don't match the conventional narrative.

Same goes for "out of place" fossils.

It's like 9/11. The government says "here's what happened"; yet you watch the footage and it's pretty clear their narrative doesn't match what you're looking at.
 
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coffee4u

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Then why are you a YEC?

You said "Mixing theology and science is bad science and even worse theology"
Which I agree with.
Anyone who comes to the scriptures using science as a filter or means to interpret is mixing science and theology, which will lead to very bad theology.
I choose to believe scripture over science.
Scripture clearly outlines special creation and a short time line- hence I am a YEC.
edit for typos.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Well I give them credit for trying as opposed to your apparent nihilistic attitude that we are all doomed.

My hope is in Christ. I'm far from a nihilist. Thousands of years of recorded history do not show a hope in the "goodness" of humanity.

Yes, we see pockets of examples of people who act ethically under dire circumstance where no one would know (or even care) that they adhered to a sense of right and wrong.

Which raises the question of where did that behavior come from?

If we got here accidentally and "survival of the fittest" is the rule of law; than.... how have we not destroyed ourselves? How is there as much peace and decency as there is? How is there not total anarchy? Where do morals and ethics come from? (Again the question of absolute authority.)

When it comes to theories on development of morals and ethics; you got two options:

1. A Divine Authority dictates morals.
2. Human societies invent them for themselves.

Now if you go with #2; you run into a big problem real quick. Because if "society" doesn't like you for some reason; you're the one on the way to the FEMA camp or the execution squad. And you have no authority to appeal to for the mistreatment you endure; because under that ideology - the guy with the biggest gun is always right.

But if you go with #1; now you have to determine who's version of God is that absolute authority.

Which again; boils down to what I've said several times now. Either there is a God who's revealed Himself to humanity or none of this matters whatsoever.

There are a lot of people who claim to be atheists but don't live like they actually believe it. For if there is no God; who cares what society thinks of what you do? Your opinion is no more invalid than anyone else's so if you feel like you want to go kill a bunch of people in Walmart - than what's stopping you? See, I know an awful lot of very moral atheists (which isn't a bad thing); yet if there is no authority to answer to; what is the point of a moral standard? It becomes and existential / philosophical question even if you attempt to remove the theological aspect of it.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Absolute truth is not the question, but how do we recognize it. If we rely only on our own interpretations of the written word by limiting ourselves to scripture, are we not in danger of missing other evidence that might inform us as to what the written word actually means?

So you admit there is such a thing as absolute truth!

And again, I'm not saying I rely on my own interpretation of the written word. What I am saying is that I rely on the Scripture's interpretation of itself. And I'm NOT saying that I fully understand that!

Studying Scripture is like putting together a puzzle. The more pieces I find and locate where they go; the more I can see the picture.

As per your question of "danger of missing other evidence that might inform us as to what the written word actually means". If you misinterpret that evidence you are guaranteed to come to the wrong conclusion; and since you have no authority to tell you if you are accurately interpreting that evidence, than you're just plain lost.

It's like trying to build a rocket to get to Mars. If you have no mathematical formula to tell you how to get off the surface of this planet; (or current space travel dilemma = how to get past the Van Allen Belts) you're going nowhere.
 
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AV1611VET

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If you want a crux, it's that after the
performance you've put on there's no way I will waste further time on anything you have to say.
Ya ... you got better things to waste your time on, don't you?
 
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Estrid

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Absolute truth is not the question, but how do we recognize it. If we rely only on our own interpretations of the written word by limiting ourselves to scripture, are we not in danger of missing other evidence that might inform us as to what the written word actually means?

How did you go about convincing yourself that there are
absolute truths?
 
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The Righterzpen

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We are familiar with circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning isn't an issue if there is a definitive authority on it's own absolute authority.

We see evidence of absolute authority in the laws of creation. 2+2 is always 4. Right angles are always 90 degrees. A strait line is always 180 degrees. A circle is always 360 degrees.

Now you can say that you don't know that a right angle is always 90 degrees; but that doesn't negate the fact that it is.
 
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AV1611VET

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What makes you think that you personally have the
ability to actually know exactly what is the word of God, and infallibly interpret it?
We've been commissioned to teach It: to our children and anyone who will listen.

To teach It, we have to interpret It from time to time, and we realize that we will be held accountable for what we say and don't say.

So get over it.

If we don't exercise our right (and obligation) to interpret It, we just might end up losing that right.

You have almost every letter in the alphabet interpreting It ... from the ASV to the NIV and a host of others in between.

Go harp to them about it.
Estrid said:
Don't try to speak for science when you have no idea at all what you are talking about.
Science can take a hike.
Estrid said:
It never goes well.
Then it can go away.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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You said "Mixing theology and science is bad science and even worse theology"
Which I agree with.
Anyone who comes to the scriptures using sciecne as a filter or means to interpret is mixing science and theology, which will lead to very bad theology.
I choose to believe scripture over science.
Scripture clearly outlines special creation and a short time line- hence I am a YEC.
Thank you for being honest.
 
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