WHAT IS GOD'S GRACE FOR?

[LoveGodsWord]

Love is the essence of obedience. Law is bondage with no love.
Be blessed.

So true love, is not separate from obedience to Gods' law is it? True love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law as we believe God's word. Do you agree and is this what your saying as well Maria? For example do we love our neighbor by lying to them, stealing from them or killing them? Or do we love our neighbor by not doing any of the above?

 

[Carl Emerson]

LGW you have some good things to say and present well..

The problem folks have and the 'fish hook' so to speak is that if we are not keeping all the 10 commandments including the Seventh Day Sabbath then Grace is frustrated.

For this reason there is reticence in agreeing fully with your position.

 

[Carl Emerson]

For believers in the New Covenant - obedience to God's Law is obedience to the "Law of the Spirit" not the Law of Moses.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

For believers in the New Covenant - obedience to God's Law is obedience to the "Law of the Spirit" not the Law of Moses.

Isn't the Spirit of the law love Carl? *John 14:15: John 15:10

 

[Clare73]

See post 13 linked. This post is only repetition of your first one after you edited it after I had responded to it.

My post #14 was in response to your post #13.

I edited my post #14 after your post #15, to include a rephrasing for you of your statement in the OP (top of post #14), regarding obedience and salvation.

No one has ever said anywhere that we are saved by obedience to the faith. Obedience is of course the fruit of faith while grace is for obedience to the faith according to Romans 1:5.

Romans 1:5 is grace to Paul. . .to call the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So true love, is not separate from obedience to Gods' law is it? True love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law as we believe God's word. Do you agree and is this what your saying as well Maria? For example do we love our neighbor by lying to them, stealing from them or killing them? Or do we love our neighbor by not doing any of the above?

What I am saying is God loves us so much that the law is now written in our hearts rather than on paper/papyrus/stone. This is accomplished thorough His Holy Spirit. It is as natural as breathing. His gateway to knowing Him, The Father.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

My post #14 was in response to your post #13.

I edited my post #14 after your post #15, to include a rephrasing for you of your statement in question (top of post #14), regarding obedience and salvation.

Yes it was repetition already answered in post 13. Can you just post the part you edited or are wanting a response from? I only saw your post as repetition to the first post answered already in post 13. Or what is it specifically you would like a response to that has not already been addressed in Post 13?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Isn't the Spirit of the law love Carl? *John 14:15: John 15:10

The 'Law of the Spirit' is Love.

The Spirit of the law I don't recall as a biblical term. (I could be wrong)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What I am saying is God loves us so much that the law is now written in our hearts rather than on paper/papyrus/stone. This is accomplished thorough His Holy Spirit. It is as natural as breathing. His gateway to knowing Him, The Father.

Indeed that is exactly what I am saying and that is the new covenant promise (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:27-31). If we have been born again to love then according to Paul in Romans 13:8-10 we will not be breaking God's law we will be obedient to Gods' law (see also 1 John 3:6-9 and Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; 15-10 etc). Good post Maria, I think we are saying the same thing.

 

[Clare73]

Yes it was repetition already answered in post 13. Can you just post the part you edited or are wanting a response from? I only saw your post as repetition to the first post answered already in post 13. Or what is it specifically you would like a response to that has not already been addressed in Post 13?

My post #14 quotes both your OP and your post #13. That is probably where the confusion lies.

The only thing to respond to would be my question at the end below:

From the OP:
God's GRACE IS FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith (God's Word) in those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW it to save us from our sins and the penalty of sin (death)

From post #14:
The obedience of faith does not save, we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

--> Edit: Did you mean to say that "God's grace is for the obedience of faith, which faith saves us from our sins and the penalty of sin"?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

My post #14 quotes both your OP and your post #13. That is probably where the confusion lies.

The only thing to respond to would be my question at the end below:

From the OP:
God's GRACE IS FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith (God's Word) in those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW it to save us from our sins and the penalty of sin (death)
Clare73 said:
From post #14:
The obedience of faith does not save, we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

--> Edit: Did you mean to say that "God's grace is for the obedience of faith, which faith saves us from our sins and the penalty of sin"?

Hello Clare,

From the OP where it says Grace is for obedience to the faith is taken from the scriptures in Romans 1:5.

Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name. (KJV)

Where you say...

"The obedience of faith does not save, we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

If you read the OP Ephesians 2:8-9 is already posted in the OP in the start of it and addressed further for clarity in post 13 where I posted that no one said anywhere that obedience to God's law saves us. All God's law does is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments according to James we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Clare73]

Hello Clare,

From the OP where it says Grace is for obedience to the faith is taken from the scriptures in Romans 1:5.

Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience
to the faith among all nations, for his name. (KJV)

That translation doesn't even make grammatical sense.
See the NIV for a better translation of the Greek.

We (Paul) didn't receive grace for the obedience of the Gentiles.
He received grace for himself--to call the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

Where you say..."The obedience of faith does not save, we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

In addressing my responses, please quote both your statement and my response to it, so that the point in discussion is clear.

you read the OP this (Ephesians 2:8-9) is already posted in the OP in the start of it and addressed further for clarity in post 13 where I posted that no one said anywhere that obedience to God's law saves us. All God's law does is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments according to James we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That translation doesn't even make grammatical sense. See the NIV for a better translation of the Greek.

Actually yes the KJV translation does make grammatical sense and so do the others but let me explain why.

The actual Greek in Romans 1:5 is

[5], δι' ου ελάβομεν χάριν και αποστολήν εις υπακοήν πίστεως εν πάσι τοις έθνεσιν υπέρ του ονόματος αυτού
[5], By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name

The Greek here of obedience is a noun that is accusative feminine singular along with grace to faith which is the genitive feminine singular it is applied to. Therefore grace and apostleship is for obedience to the faith as shown in the KJV but other translations do not make much difference in my view to the interpretation of the scriptures as the term "the faith" meaning the truth of God's Word here is what we are to believe and follow which leads to obedience. So if you look at the scripture together with Ephesians 2:8-9 grace is intrinsically linked to faith that leads to obedience to Gods' Word (the faith) that we receive through believing and following what Gods' Word says (faith).

We (Paul) didn't receive grace for the obedience of the Gentiles. He received grace for himself--to call the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. In addressing my responses, please quote both your statement and my response to it, so that the point in discussion is clear.

Which ever translation you wish to use obedience comes by faith. So obedience to the faith or the obedience that comes from faith is the same meaning and outcome which is obedience to God's Word through faith. That is why Ephesians 2:8-9 says was are saved by God's grace through faith which is a gift from God. James is also demonstrating this same concept in James 2:17-26 that faith leads to obedience to what God's Word says while anything else is the faith of devils.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Clare73]

Actually yes the KJV translation does make grammatical sense and so do the others but let me explain why.

The actual Greek in Romans 1:5 is

[5], δι' ου ελάβομεν χάριν και αποστολήν εις υπακοήν πίστεως εν πάσι τοις έθνεσιν υπέρ του ονόματος αυτού
[5], By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

The Greek here of obedience is a noun that is accusative feminine singular along with grace to faith which is the genitive feminine singular it is applied to. Therefore
grace and apostleship is for obedience to the faith

Thanks.

But first, grace and apostleship were to Paul, while obedience to the faith was to the Gentiles of Paul's ministry.
Grace and apostleship were not for Paul's obedience, they were for sake of calling the Gentiles to obedience.

As long as grammatical construction matters, this is the meaning of Romans 1:5.

as shown in the KJV but other translations do not make much difference in my view to the interpretation of the scriptures as the term "the faith" meaning the truth of God's Word here is what we are to believe and follow which leads to obedience. So if you look at the scripture together with Ephesians 2:8-9 grace is intrinsically linked to faith that leads to obedience to Gods' Word (the faith).

Secondly, I see a significant difference.
The KJV translation locates the source of obedience outside faith and applied to faith,
while the NIV locates the source of obedience in/from faith, which is the NT teaching.

As long as obedience comes from faith rather than being applied to faith, the NIV is the meaning of Romans 1:5.

Which ever translation you wish to use obedience comes by faith. So obedience to the faith or the obedience that comes from faith is the same meaning and outcome which is obedience to God's Word through faith. That is why Ephesians 2:8-9 says was are saved by God's grace through faith which is a gift from God. James is also demonstrating this same concept in James 2:17-26 that faith leads to obedience to what God's Word says while anything else is the faith of devils.

Hope this is helpful.

As long as words have meaning, "to" and "from" are not the same, and the NIV does no make them the same in Romans 1:5.

So again I agree with the many Greek scholars of the NIV, as well as NAS, etc. regarding the meaning of Romans 1:5.

 

[Thuycidides]

Hello all,

I have some questions as there seems to be confusion on the purpose of God's grace. Of course God's Grace is a free gift by God to mankind in Christ and his death on the cross for our sins. There is nothing that we can do to earn it as the scriptures teach it is God's gift to mankind because he loves us and sending his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life *John 3:16 and as the scriptures teach we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves and not of works lest any man should boast according to Ephesians 2:8-9.

The Questions I am proposing in this OP is...

Q1. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S GRACE OR WHAT IS GOD'S GRACE FOR?
Q2. CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?
Q3. WHERE DOES GOD'S GRACE LEAD US?

...................

I will start of by providing my view from the scriptures in regards to Q1.

Q1. WHAT IS GRACE FOR?

Grace is linked to mercy and peace from God the father and from JESUS in love and truth for obedience to the faith.

2 JOHN 1:3 [3] GRACE be with you, MERCY, and PEACE, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

ROMANS 1:5 [5], By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.

...................

We are to grow in God's GRACE and the KNOWLEDGE of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.

2 PETER 3:18 But GROW IN GRACE, AND IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. *2 PETER 1:2

We do this by seeking JESUS to be our teacher and continuing in God's WORD.

JOHN 14:26 [26], But the Comforter, which is the HOLY GHOST, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATEVER I HAVE SAID TO YOU.

JOHN 8:31-36
[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD, THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], JESUS ANSWERED THEM, TRULY, TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, WHOEVER COMMITS SIN IS THE SERVANT OF SIN.
[35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], IF THE SON THEREFORE SHALL MAKE YOU FREE, YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED.

TITUS 2:11-12 [11], FOR THE GRACE OF GOD HAS APPEARED BRINGING SALVATION TO ALL MEN, [12], TEACHING US, THAT, DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY LUSTS, WE SHOULD LIVE SOBERLY, RIGHTOUESLY AND GODLY IN THIS PRESENT WORLD

ROMANS 6:1-2, [1] What shall we say then? SHALL WE SIN [break any one of God's 10 commandments], THAT GRACE MAY ABOUND? GOD FORBID. [2], How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

ROMANS 6:15-17 What then? SHALL WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE? GOD FORBID! [16] Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of SIN RESULTING IN DEATH, or of OBEDIENCE resulting in righteousness?

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

...................

God's GRACE is given to us because all of us have sinned and are sinners (broken God's 10 Commandments) and the wages of SIN is death *ROMANS 3:23; ROMANS 5:12; ROMANS 6:23.

ROMANS 8:3-4
[3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

...................

WORD MEANINGS OF GRACE

GRACE GREEK WORD
χάρις; charis khar'-ece From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

GRACE HEBREW WORD
חן; chên khane From H2603; graciousness, that is, subjectively kindness, favor or objectively (beauty): - favor, grace (-ious), pleasant, precious, [well-] favored.

.....................

CONCLUSION: Grace is unmerited favor leading to a change of behavior. God's GRACE IS FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith (God's Word) in those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW it to save us from our sins and the penalty of sin (death) and our sinful nature through our LORD JESUS CHRIST!

Hope this helps.

By Grace is Hos God saves. The favor is based upon the faith of His Son found in our heart. So long as we keep His faith, His grace saves us, and we shall be found written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[pescador]

By Grace is Hos God saves. The favor is based upon the faith of His Son found in our heart. So long as we keep His faith, His grace saves us, and we shall be found written in the Lamb's book of life.

That's your first post? Excellent! Please keep on contributing!

 

[dqhall]

Hi dqhall nice to see you. Are you saying here that Gentile believers can lie, steal and murder while using God's name in vain? Did you know all of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living?

Not at all. The Romans crucified murderers and thieves. This law forced the Jews to go to the Romans to get them to kill Jesus.

Can you stone a man for picking up sticks/firewood on the Sabbath as was required in the Law of Moses? Numbers 15:32-36, Exodus 35:2. If you can stone them to death as required by the Law of Moses, why call yourself a Christian. Jesus said anger and murder are wrong. If you do stone people to death, you might find yourself in prison, without the comfort of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Thuycidides]

That's your first post? Excellent! Please keep on contributing!

Thank you.

And perhaps grace is not entirely unmerited on our part.

God by grace saves through the faith of Jesus, that we receive in our hearts.

So, we must at lest believe in order to be imputed righteous before Him and so saved.

I suppose not a real big point, and maybe splitting hairs.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thanks. But first, grace and apostleship were to Paul, while obedience to the faith was to the Gentiles of Paul's ministry.
Grace and apostleship were not for Paul's obedience, they were for sake of calling the Gentiles' to obedience.

Actually no. God's grace according to the scriptures which has already been shown in the Greek in Romans 1:5 is for everyone's obedience which we receive through faith.

Secondly, I see a significant difference. The KJV translation locates the source of obedience outside faith and applied to faith, while the NIV locates the source of obedience in (from) faith, which is the NT teaching.

See post # 33 linked. The Greek shows that the KJV is a correct translation and the translation makes no difference even when compared to other translations as the result is that grace is for obedience to God's Word through faith.

I don't see "to and "from" as having the same meaning, so I agree with the many Greek scholars of the NIV, as well as NAS, etc. where the source of obedience is located in faith and not outside it, which is the NT teaching.

See previous section. Makes no difference to interpretation whatever translation you use as the result is that grace is for obedience to God's Word through faith. We are all now one in Christ. I like and use all translations and like to compare them to the original Greek and Hebrew but prefer and normally use the KJV for general reading.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

By Grace is Hos God saves. The favor is based upon the faith of His Son found in our heart. So long as we keep His faith, His grace saves us, and we shall be found written in the Lamb's book of life.

Yes I agree Thuycidides and BTW big welcome to CF ! Thanks for sharing your view. A question for consideration though, how do we know if we are following the right faith or not according to the scriptures (40,000 Christian denominations)?