What do you believe about January 6th?

[Akita Suggagaki]

We are now up to 10 people on this forum who do not believe Trump supporters violently took over the capitol on January 6th. Almost 20%. I am stunned. I thought there might be a few, but this like flat Earth stuff.

 

[lasthero]

You're probably correct about that, but it wasn't placed outside some particular person's house

Or my place of work, or my favorite diner, or my local Wal-Mart. In fact, I don't think there's any real acceptable place to put a noose, do you? Maybe a play about a guy getting hanged, but other than that...

and, what's more, it most likely was the work of one hothead individual.

On what do you base that? How could you possibly even guess that? I'm not even saying your wrong, I'm just asking, straight up, how do you look at this thing and come to the judgement that only one person made it?

It is very wrong to point to this item (which we all think was uncalled for)...and then start talking about it "proves" that a revolution was organized and underway or that this is how Trump voters are, etc.

I don't recall talking about a revolution, I'm more talking about their intentions to Mike Pence.

Of course we do. Look at it. It could not possibly have worked; it was a symbol.

Whether it worked or not isn't necessarily the point. Their skill at making a noose is irrelevant. If I make a bomb and try to blow up a building, that I was so incompetent that the thing didn't work doesn't change the fact that I wanted to blow up a building. If I try to poison someone and mess it up because I get the ingredients wrong, that doesn't change the fact that I tried to kill someone. Heck, if I made a noose right now and tried to hang someone with, I'd likely mess it up - I can barely tie my shoes, much less make a noose. But the fact that I'd screw the noose up wouldn't change the fact that I wanted to hang someone.

You could be right, it could've just been meant as a scare tactic - it's impossible to know, though I would say the actions and words of the people involved went beyond that. But the simple fact that the noose wouldn't have worked is besides the point.

It's a tasteless one, not at all a responsible one, but so are a lot of the comments that have been made about this event by people hoping to exploit a very unfortunate event for partisan political gain.

And we can talk about those in another topic, if you like.

 

[lasthero]

The problem here is.. what "IS" considered a mob?

A large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence.

 

[Sophrosyne]

That’s just silly. By this logic none of us can comment or form an opinion on anything that happens that we’re aren’t direct witnesses to. Yourself included.

Opinion that don't seek the truth and justice but rather elevating one group over another reek of elitism. Comments that always side on condemning those you disagree with while not condemning those who you agree with for the SAME ACTIONS is elevating one morality especially when both groups are guilty of the same crimes.
The same people who demand Trump supporters have the book thrown at them have refused to prosecute BLM activists for the same or worse acts. If one wants to prove they are not acting as superior one would be upset over the injustice and be concerned that Trump supporters are not being treated as they may be innocent.
Our justice system is based upon the supposition that we start out in a trial as if we have not done a thing wrong (innocent). The prosecution has to prove that wrong was done and by whom and the defense can attack their arguments. When you already have an opinion and make comments that someone is guilty...... and not just someone but a large group is guilty then you are placing yourself as if you are in that courtroom itself.

Now tell me if you are the judge of these people what is their sentence based upon what you have heard?
Personally I would not want to be the one who sentences someone to 10-20 years in prison based upon what
some overpaid media people say on script night and day to support themselves and that what they say if it gets more attention and raises more money may give me an increase in pay...... I couldn't trust anyone but witnesses sworn in court punishable if they lie by imprisonment for years and even then I wouldn't trust them blindly.

I'm not convinced of anything about this Capital thing because the more people make it to be a HUGE issue the more I'm convinced it is likely not as huge.

 

[Sophrosyne]

A large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence.

And if they have no real plans or leaders how do you know how they will act?

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's right...... lets make a mountain out of this molehill while ignoring the mountain range that the left has created blocking out the sun and causing all the grass to die beneath the darkness within.

You left out the part about the country slipping so far to the left that it literally tumbles into the Atlantic Ocean. One thing I cannot abide is half-hearted melodrama.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Opinion that don't seek the truth and justice but rather elevating one group over another reek of elitism. Comments that always side on condemning those you disagree with while not condemning those who you agree with for the SAME ACTIONS is elevating one morality especially when both groups are guilty of the same crimes.
The same people who demand Trump supporters have the book thrown at them have refused to prosecute BLM activists for the same or worse acts. If one wants to prove they are not acting as superior one would be upset over the injustice and be concerned that Trump supporters are not being treated as they may be innocent.
Our justice system is based upon the supposition that we start out in a trial as if we have not done a thing wrong (innocent). The prosecution has to prove that wrong was done and by whom and the defense can attack their arguments. When you already have an opinion and make comments that someone is guilty...... and not just someone but a large group is guilty then you are placing yourself as if you are in that courtroom itself.

Now tell me if you are the judge of these people what is their sentence based upon what you have heard?
Personally I would not want to be the one who sentences someone to 10-20 years in prison based upon what
some overpaid media people say on script night and day to support themselves and that what they say if it gets more attention and raises more money may give me an increase in pay...... I couldn't trust anyone but witnesses sworn in court punishable if they lie by imprisonment for years and even then I wouldn't trust them blindly.

I'm not convinced of anything about this Capital thing because the more people make it to be a HUGE issue the more I'm convinced it is likely not as huge.

I think you’re taking my comments a bit too personally and need to maybe take a nice walk and calm down a bit. I’ve condemned the riots and looting that happened last year but (and maybe you’re unaware of this) but this thread isn’t about those incidents. It’s about the January 6 riot at the Capitol. If you’d like to hear my views on those past incidents you can start a thread or tag me in one of the scores of threads that were created last year about them and I’ll be happy to inform you of my views but please save your righteous indignation about standards and judgement for someone who cares to hear it.

 

[lasthero]

And if they have no real plans or leaders how do you know how they will act?

Well, we could go off what they say, and had been saying all day long, and were, indeed, saying even as they made their way through the building.

So let me ask you this - should I not take their words seriously here? If so, when should I take the words of Trump supporters seriously? Why they chant 'build the wall', do they not actually want a wall built? What about when they chanted 'lock her up'? Did they not actually want Hilary Clinton put in jail?

Just let me know how you tell the difference.

 

[Albion]

Or my place of work, or my favorite diner, or my local Wal-Mart. In fact, I don't think there's any real acceptable place to put a noose, do you?

No, and I've said as much before. But with this one, it was far away from the Capitol building and so was not part of whatever you think happened there.

I'm just asking, straight up, how do you look at this thing and come to the judgement that only one person made it?

It's so flimsy and incomplete that it suggests a quick assembly like one person would do. If it were a well thought out project involving a number of different builders or designers, it would almost certainly look better than this thing does.

 

[Sophrosyne]

That's incredibly untrue. hearsay is a form of indirect evidence that is used frequently to convict people of crimes. It is actually rare to have direct evidence of a crime used in court, because if there was such evidence, it usually wouldn't go to court, it would be settled out of court or plea bargained.

Hearsay too often is rejected in court if there is no other supporting evidence especially on more serious crimes. Likely it is more used when there is a history of criminal actions that follows a pattern but the hearsay I am talking about is media themselves saying someone told them or they say something happened as if they were there themselves.. and were not.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Well, we could go off what they say, and had been saying all day long, and were, indeed, saying even as they made their way through the building.

So in other words it wasn't a mob but a plan in action........ did everyone follow them into the building there like a huge swarm or just a few?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Hearsay too often is rejected in court if there is no other supporting evidence especially on more serious crimes. Likely it is more used when there is a history of criminal actions that follows a pattern but the hearsay I am talking about is media themselves saying someone told them or they say something happened as if they were there themselves.. and were not.

You are aware a lot of the people there recorded themselves as they committed their crimes, right? Many were broadcasting live as they did it and seemed quite proud.

 

[Albion]

Hearsay is unverified information received from another person that cannot be verified by cross-examination; rumor, gossip.

 

[Sophrosyne]

We are now up to 10 people on this forum who do not believe Trump supporters violently took over the capitol on January 6th. Almost 20%. I am stunned. I thought there might be a few, but this like flat Earth stuff.

Took over? That is laughable rhetoric

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Hearsay is unverified information received from another person that cannot be verified by cross-examination; rumor, gossip.

Good things there’s hours worth of personal and surveillance video from the day as well.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You are aware a lot of the people there recorded themselves as they committed their crimes, right? Many were broadcasting live as they did it and seemed quite proud.

IF they were recorded is it isn't hearsay. Recordings are considered legal testimony if the court decides no rights were violated.

 

[lasthero]

No, and I've said as much before. But with this one, it was far away from the Capitol building and so was not part of whatever you think happened there.

I think you and I are going to disagree on the definition of 'far away'.

It's so flimsy and incomplete that it suggests a quick assembly like one person would do.

Why one person? Why not two? Three? There's absolutely no way to know how many people that took. You can guess all day long, but it's just a flat guess. You really have nothing to base that on.

Not that it terribly matters. I doubt it took twenty or something people to make it, but the fact that it stayed up and the crowd didn't seem to have a problem with says a lot about where their intentions were.

If it were a well thought out project involving a number of different builders or designers, it would almost certainly look better than this thing does.

So they suck at making a gallows. So what? No one claimed they were good at craftsmanship. I imagine most people don't know how to make a proper gallows, it's not exactly a common skillset these days.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Good things there’s hours worth of personal and surveillance video from the day as well.

Good thing then..... will help the courts get the leaders of the trouble and those who did nothing will be less likely to get convicted for something that they had no part in.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

IF they were recorded is it isn't hearsay. Recordings are considered legal testimony if the court decides no rights were violated.

No privacy rights are violated when the perpetrators record and broadcast themselves as they commit their crime.

 

[lasthero]

So in other words it wasn't a mob but a plan in action........ did everyone follow them into the building there like a huge swarm or just a few?

I don't know. Does that matter? How many people have to want Mike Pence hung in that crowd before you consider it a real problem? 10? 20?

I'm also not sure how you come to the conclusion that certain individuals in the mob wanted a specific thing done somehow keeps it from being a mob. Nothing about the definition of the word 'mob' says that. A mob can be focused on a single goal, or multiple goals, or just be a chaotic mess.