What Convinced you God Exists?

[cvanwey]

God will give enough information/knowledge of Himself for us to start a genuine search for God. We must of our own choosing be willing to do so.

I'm not sure if you answered my direct question. Please allow me to rephrase:

1. Can I will a belief in a deity, or anything?
2. Or, does the provided evidence, for which I receive, force me to discern a conclusion?

Sure all people will have ups and downs, but due to God's help a Christian will have very few "sin" moments. His Spirit empowers us to not sin.

Again, sin is sin. It does not matter if you do it once a day, once a week, or once a decade. It also does not matter if the intentions were thought to be pure, or the lie was deliberate. All lies are still deemed a 'sin' to God.

I am very careful to speak the truth at all times. I think I have lied at most once in my life under a moment of great stress.

I do not believe you. (Please see my prior response for details). But even if this were true, you are still a sinner. Hence, you are redeemed access BY belief and worship. Why? Because you only lying once alone will NOT get you into heaven. However, someone whom professes allegiance to the correct God, and tries not to lie, and still does, is likely still granted access.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm kinda sensing some acrobatics here? Sorry. No disrespect. Let me pose the straight forward scenario, as presented from the Bible...

- God is all powerful
- God is all loving
- God loves every one of His human creations
- God decides to continue creating humans.
- God decides to setup a dichotomous system.
- This dichotomy system comprises of [either] heaven or hell alone.
- Heaven equals eternal bliss, while hell equals eternal torture.
- God deems all humans unworthy of heaven, and instead deems all worthy of hell - (a place of eternal torment).
- God decides whom goes where; even though none of them are apparently worthy upon their own merit.
- The ones whom are chosen by God, or choose correctly, are picked. The ones which are not chosen, or pick incorrectly, receive eternal damnation.
- God states all deserve hell, but He will spare some.
- God calls this grace.

So my follow up question(s) become...

If God loves His creation, why is the only place, for which the 'unsaved' can dwell, outside His presence, is complete torture? Why not just make them cease existence, or other? Seems rather superfluous to send them to eternal torture? Why? Well, there will exist no possible rehabilitation there; just endless suffering?.?.? Seems rather odd to use the word 'love', without jumping through hoops to make it 'fit' (i.e.) "love equals sending the unchosen to a place of eternal torture"?

Let me pose a scenario here, drawn from the Bible.
1. God is Omnipotent.
2. God decided to create for a purpose.
3. God loves his creation, intensely interested and involved in every detail.
4. Some of God's creatures are created for a special purpose.
5. The rest of creation is what it took to accomplish that purpose.
6. Those whom God chose, he will bring to himself, in keeping with that purpose.
7. Those he brings to himself, he will keep, and certain characteristics will be representative of them, such as 'remaining in him' and not having the habit of rebellion.
8. Those who remain in rebellion will receive in themselves just compensation for their deeds.

You've been told, if I remember right, about Romans 9, and few other delicious passages demonstrating God's justice, power and purity. The objects of his particular Grace (mercy) will see this and learn. Sin will be dealt with according to the horror that it is. God is just and thorough --nobody will receive more than their due. If he was not just and thorough, he would not be God. You can believe that if he is God, that the judge of all the world will do what is right.

He knew what he was doing when he made us. So it makes sense he knows what he is doing in ending the story. This is about him, not us.

I feel another red herring here.... People claim He is the Messiah. The Messiah is perfect.

I've looked at the evidence. I do not believe He rose from the dead.

This feels like a red herring to me. We were talking about the evidence for God, not for rising from the dead. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[cvanwey]

What it says is 'knew', not 'believed'. The kind of believing that keeps the Elect is a whole different thing from knowing something is true.

I'm thinking I mentioned to you at one time or another, acknowledging the existence of God is hard to do, because it demands submission, though with practice you can shove that out of the way.

At this point, I'm not going to quibble between the terms knowledge and belief. (i.e.) I know gravity is real vs I believe gravity is real.

Romans 1 says (to me, admittedly), that God is obvious, from the fact of (to me, again) existence of nature.

Yes, this is my point. It's likely that the same author whom wrote these Verses thinks like you, and many others. (i.e.) "Look at the trees" -- (Please do not take offense here. It's not meant to be an insult)

You can call it gaslighting, if you wish to keep the narrative under control, but it makes good sense to me.

As for your type 1 'no harm, no foul', that is your argument. I see no use in considering it longer than to just figure out what you are saying. I know my Redeemer lives.

I know it does make sense to you. Hence, what we discussed well prior about invoking intentional agency. My contention is that you are the product of the "survival of the fitter". Your survival was secured by invoking intention, more than necessary. And when you invoke intention, and it turns up false, oh well. As for me? Who knows, since I too invoke intentional agency, and are sometimes wrong. Maybe just not as much as others?.?.?.?

Somehow I no longer invoke agency for some of the things you do. And according to the Bible, it's because I'm either prideful, blocked by sin, or too dumb.

 

[cvanwey]

'Enough' for what? Becoming saved, or enough for being a Christian? Yes, if one only obeys perfectly, his works will save him. But nobody can do that.

Salvation/saved/other.

And yes, I agree with you, as long as I do not look very far. You can also make a convincing case for works winning over faith for salvation. This is why you and the other interlocutor both 'know/believe' you are both right (even though you are both diametrically opposed) The Bible can be used to reinforce mutually exclusive positions. He seems to be okay with being the author of confusion?

I don't believe there is such a thing as an unintentional sin. One may not think they meant to do it, but they did. Sin is in enmity to God. Therefore intentional.

So when you dream about "impurity", it's intentional?

Furthermore...

When you lie to your spouse, so you do not ruin her surprise birthday party, God is okay with this lie?

I looked at 429 and 430. I don't understand why you say it really does not matter. You mean, does not matter as far as keeping one from Heaven? What matters is whether you are one of the Elect, in which case God will see to it you are obedient. No, I'm not saying the Elect need not be careful and work. 'Believers' are not necessarily Elect. They may call themselves, and even think they are believers, but fool themselves. If they rely on that status as though they need not work, they are doing it wrong for sure.

I'm simply saying that the elected will still sin. All the way to the point of their death... Sin is arbitrary because to continue committing sin will not necessarily keep the elect out of heaven. On the other hand, not worshiping is apparently not arbitrary.

 

[cvanwey]

8. Those who remain in rebellion will receive in themselves just compensation for their deeds.

This here above might well be enough to answer my straight forward question....

1. If eternal torture is just compensation for rebellion, then torture chambers for the "rebellious" are also okay?

2. Or, is it only okay when God assigns the torture?

3. And furthermore, is this what all atheists, doubters, skeptics, or believers in other god(s) are labelled ---> "rebellious"?.?.?

He knew what he was doing when he made us. So it makes sense he knows what he is doing in ending the story. This is about him, not us.

Okay, then He willfully set out to create a singular destination of eternal torture for unbelievers/skeptics/doubters/atheists/alternative god believers. Great. Glad we cleared this up.

This feels like a red herring to me. We were talking about the evidence for God, not for rising from the dead. But maybe I'm wrong.

Well, you would be wrong if you disagree with "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Not "A god", THE GOD. First Cause was necessarily With Intent. Not accidental. And Omnipotent, thus, God.

This does not demonstrate The God was the first cause. This is just asserted.

A small hint is: The reason some are chosen for Heaven is the same reason they were created. The Bride of Christ. And not because they are worthy, but because God has some particular way he is going to use each one.

Yes, The God picks and chooses who will be saved. Not all have the same option to be saved.

If you want merely philosophical though, I guess you'll just have to go with Omnipotence can do whatever he wants and doesn't owe us anything --certainly doesn't owe us an explanation.

I agree, however a good God would explain it to us just like I would explain to my child things when they ask. A good father would not tell their child you are insignificant and I an great so shut up when legitimate questions are asked. This is what The God told Job.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I'm not sure if you answered my direct question. Please allow me to rephrase:

1. Can I will a belief in a deity, or anything?
2. Or, does the provided evidence, for which I receive, force me to discern a conclusion?



Again, sin is sin. It does not matter if you do it once a day, once a week, or once a decade. It also does not matter if the intentions were thought to be pure, or the lie was deliberate. All lies are still deemed a 'sin' to God.



I do not believe you. (Please see my prior response for details). But even if this were true, you are still a sinner. Hence, you are redeemed access BY belief and worship. Why? Because you only lying once alone will NOT get you into heaven. However, someone whom professes allegiance to the correct God, and tries not to lie, and still does, is likely still granted access.

I feel like we are running around in circles:

Christianity is this:

• We build relationship with God, based upon the offer of total forgiveness for all sins
• Relationship with God gives us access to His Spirit, which gives us strength over sin
• We are to do our best to avoid sin, and move away from it
• The Holy Spirit gives us power to do the above

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

At this point, I'm not going to quibble between the terms knowledge and belief. (i.e.) I know gravity is real vs I believe gravity is real.

Concerning the difference between knowledge and belief, I am going to quibble, because it makes a huge difference in one's theology. It also deals directly with our current discussion re Romans 1. If people know something, they may not even realize that they know it.

I know it does make sense to you. Hence, what we discussed well prior about invoking intentional agency. My contention is that you are the product of the "survival of the fitter". Your survival was secured by invoking intention, more than necessary. And when you invoke intention, and it turns up false, oh well. As for me? Who knows, since I too invoke intentional agency, and are sometimes wrong. Maybe just not as much as others?.?.?.?

You've lost me here. I'll guess by 'intentional agency' etc you are referring to the discussion about whether something happens naturally, or by God's providence. But then it doesn't make much sense to say my 'survival' is secured by invoking intention. Do you mean, my existence is secured by intentional agency (i.e. God)?

But like I said, IF First Cause exists, then it is ALL intentional.

Somehow I no longer invoke agency for some of the things you do. And according to the Bible, it's because I'm either prideful, blocked by sin, or too dumb.

Where is the 'too dumb' part, in the Bible?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Salvation/saved/other.

And yes, I agree with you, as long as I do not look very far. You can also make a convincing case for works winning over faith for salvation. This is why you and the other interlocutor both 'know/believe' you are both right (even though you are both diametrically opposed) The Bible can be used to reinforce mutually exclusive positions. He seems to be okay with being the author of confusion?

'He' who? God?

Btw, my 'opponent' is not diametrically as opposed as you might think. We are agreed on the basics, or the wording of them. Omnipotence and Sovereignty of God. The person and work of Christ and of the Holy Spirit. And a lot more. Our biggest differences lie in the usual POV distinction between Arminianism and Calvinism. I don't think he believes in works over faith for salvation --I just think his way of thinking of it comes to that, that human action comes before faith.

So when you dream about "impurity", it's intentional?

Furthermore...

When you lie to your spouse, so you do not ruin her surprise birthday party, God is okay with this lie?

Now I AM lost. What does the question of intentionality have to do with any of this? Are you asking if I meant to dream something or to lie? I thought we were talking about God's intentions.

However, just to ease your mind concerning me, some things I dream about reveal some of what is in me.

And some of the 'lies' some people tell are not lying, but part of the way people talk. Like playing I Doubt It is a game. It is understood that some things must be done the way they are. Sarcasm uses the opposite of what someone means, to say what they mean.

Also my wife was one who would say that if I don't tell all that is on my mind, I am lying by omission. It took years for her to see that nobody tells ALL that is on their mind. There simply isn't time, not to mention we pretty much all have to get along together.

I'm simply saying that the elected will still sin. All the way to the point of their death... Sin is arbitrary because to continue committing sin will not necessarily keep the elect out of heaven. On the other hand, not worshiping is apparently not arbitrary.

I don't get your use of the word, 'arbitrary'. Do you mean, sin is ok, because....? Also, I'm curious, where do you get that 'not worshiping' is apparently not arbitrary (i.e. not ok?)?

 

[Mark Quayle]

This here above might well be enough to answer my straight forward question....

1. If eternal torture is just compensation for rebellion, then torture chambers for the "rebellious" are also okay?

2. Or, is it only okay when God assigns the torture?

3. And furthermore, is this what all atheists, doubters, skeptics, or believers in other god(s) are labelled ---> "rebellious"?.?.?

Okay, then He willfully set out to create a singular destination of eternal torture for unbelievers/skeptics/doubters/atheists/alternative god believers. Great. Glad we cleared this up.

Ahahaha! There ought to be a name for that kind of talk! Remember, in your choleric antagonism, that if God is God, there is no reason for him to be unjust. Nobody will get "tortured" more than they deserve. (By the way, the Bible uses the word, 'torment', and yes, there is a difference.)

By the way, you left out false believers, too.

Well, you would be wrong if you disagree with "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

What? Why would I disagree with that?

 

[Mark Quayle]

This does not demonstrate The God was the first cause. This is just asserted.

In the classic proofs of God, the way they put it is something like, "this being, as described, is the same as what has usually been called 'God'."

Yes, The God picks and chooses who will be saved. Not all have the same option to be saved.

All have the same option to choose or reject Christ. 'Ability' does not = 'option'.

I agree, however a good God would explain it to us just like I would explain to my child things when they ask. A good father would not tell their child you are insignificant and I an great so shut up when legitimate questions are asked. This is what The God told Job.

How do you know that a good God would do that? But just for starters, you are not nearly so far removed intellectually, and in knowledge, from your child, as God is from you. Lol, 'You couldn't handle the truth!"

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

In the classic proofs of God, the way they put it is something like, "this being, as described, is the same as what has usually been called 'God'."

Which is an assertion.

All have the same option to choose or reject Christ. 'Ability' does not = 'option'.

I cannot choose what I don't believe to be true. No one can. We cannot choose our beliefs.

How do you know that a good God would do that? But just for starters, you are not nearly so far removed intellectually, and in knowledge, from your child, as God is from you. Lol, 'You couldn't handle the truth!"

So now you are saying that I am not given the truth because I cannot handle it? Seems pretty convenient.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Which is an assertion.

Of course it is. Nevertheless, it makes sense.

I cannot choose what I don't believe to be true. No one can. We cannot choose our beliefs.

So you never watched John McEnroe play tennis?

So now you are saying that I am not given the truth because I cannot handle it? Seems pretty convenient.

Seems pretty obvious to me. None of us can handle the whole truth.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Of course it is. Nevertheless, it makes sense.

Just because something "makes sense" or explains something does not mean it is true or even likely true. Truth must be demonstrated.

So you never watched John McEnroe play tennis?

What are you talking about?

Seems pretty obvious to me. None of us can handle the whole truth.

Well then how will we ever believe?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Just because something "makes sense" or explains something does not mean it is true or even likely true. Truth must be demonstrated.

No. Truth is what it is, demonstrated or not. You think the intellect is all that matters?

What are you talking about?

People playing tennis, volleyball, pretty much believe according to what side they are on, not according to their eyes, but according to their wishes. You can choose to believe.

Well then how will we ever believe?

Believe what --the whole truth? We don't need to know the whole truth to know enough to believe.

But since you brought it up: True belief in God, what we refer to as 'salvific faith', is what God in us believes --and yeah, he's got ALL the information right.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No. Truth is what it is, demonstrated or not. You think the intellect is all that matters?

I NEVER said truth was not truth. I said truth needs to be demonstrated to be true before we should believe it. Do you have reasons for your belief? I bet you do, you believe those reasons are good enough for belief. I don't.

People playing tennis, volleyball, pretty much believe according to what side they are on, not according to their eyes, but according to their wishes. You can choose to believe.

No, they are not choosing to believe. The are swayed to belief by their emotions. I will ask again, Can you believe the moon is made of cheese?

Believe what --the whole truth? We don't need to know the whole truth to know enough to believe.

I agree, but you need good evidence even to believe any part of the truth.

But since you brought it up: True belief in God, what we refer to as 'salvific faith', is what God in us believes --and yeah, he's got ALL the information right.

Then why don't I and billions others believe?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I NEVER said truth was not truth. I said truth needs to be demonstrated to be true before we should believe it. Do you have reasons for your belief? I bet you do, you believe those reasons are good enough for belief. I don't.

Convincing is not even close to the same thing as proving. Demonstrating a thing to the point of acceptance of that thing as fact, is not the same as proof. My reasons to believe are not what caused my faith. And my reasons are good enough to satisfy me, and I don't expect them to be good enough for you. No reasons will be good enough to make you believe, if believing means salvific faith. That comes from God, not reason. Reason can cause you to believe he exists, however, like "the devil believes, and trembles."

No, they are not choosing to believe. The are swayed to belief by their emotions. I will ask again, Can you believe the moon is made of cheese?

Haha, If I do believe the moon is made of cheese, you'd better believe it is a choice, because it makes no logical sense.

I agree, but you need good evidence even to believe any part of the truth.

Not really. Some people have what a friend of mine calls, 'flat earther credence, (in the face of evidence to the contrary)."

Then why don't I and billions others believe?

Because God is not in you.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Convincing is not even close to the same thing as proving. Demonstrating a thing to the point of acceptance of that thing as fact, is not the same as proof. My reasons to believe are not what caused my faith. And my reasons are good enough to satisfy me, and I don't expect them to be good enough for you. No reasons will be good enough to make you believe, if believing means salvific faith. That comes from God, not reason. Reason can cause you to believe he exists, however, like "the devil believes, and trembles."

Then show me a reasonable argument for gods existence.

Haha, If I do believe the moon is made of cheese, you'd better believe it is a choice, because it makes no logical sense.

See you can't do it can you. You cannot force yourself to believe something is true that you are not convinced is true by evidence.

Not really. Some people have what a friend of mine calls, 'flat earther credence, (in the face of evidence to the contrary)."

That is not me. I want to know what is true but I am unwilling to accept something as true without good evidence.

Because God is not in you.

Ok, can you demonstrate to me that God is in you?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Then show me a reasonable argument for gods existence.

The self-evident fact that things (including every detail) exist wants explanation
The explanation necessarily must deal with causation
Causation of every detail of what exists regresses along a chain of causation.
The chain of causation had a beginning or regresses infinitely. (Even the very fact that there is a chain wants explanation.)
Infinite regression is no explanation --it is infinitely begging the question.
Therefore, the chain of causation had a beginning. I.e. First Cause.

See you can't do it can you. You cannot force yourself to believe something is true that you are not convinced is true by evidence.

And there you have it. You say it yourself, '...convinced is true by evidence'. The evidence can convince, but not if you won't look at it.

That is not me. I want to know what is true but I am unwilling to accept something as true without good evidence.

You will likely one day find that on a large scale you have refused to look at the evidence. Just saying.

Searching my own experience, I have seen this tendency in myself toward things that would otherwise make me feel guilty. I don't want to know! So also, I think you want it done to you; you don't want to do it.

Ok, can you demonstrate to me that God is in you?

No. I am a lousy example. I can only tell you what I feel like, in that regard, and perhaps point to the fact that I have been unable to stop believing, even when I thought I wanted to stop.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The self-evident fact that things (including every detail) exist wants explanation
The explanation necessarily must deal with causation
Causation of every detail of what exists regresses along a chain of causation.
The chain of causation had a beginning or regresses infinitely. (Even the very fact that there is a chain wants explanation.)
Infinite regression is no explanation --it is infinitely begging the question.
Therefore, the chain of causation had a beginning. I.e. First Cause.

How have you ruled out that there never was a beginning? Many Physicists have hypothesized that nothing may not be a possible state. Who knows but how do you rule this out?

And there you have it. You say it yourself, '...convinced is true by evidence'. The evidence can convince, but not if you won't look at it.

I have looked at all the evidence I can get my hands on. I spent two years trying to determine what is true by trying to find the good evidence for my religious beliefs. What I found was I had no good reasons to believe and became unconvinced. You saying that I "won't look at the evidence" is just fallacious and almost slanderous.

You will likely one day find that on a large scale you have refused to look at the evidence. Just saying.

Please demonstrate how you can possibly know this to be true? My life would be so much easier if I was still a believer.

Searching my own experience, I have seen this tendency in myself toward things that would otherwise make me feel guilty. I don't want to know! So also, I think you want it done to you; you don't want to do it.

Nope, again you just want to brush away my entire experience of losing my faith as I "just don't want to believe" Well that is arrogant and foolish because it just gives me good evidence that you don't have any answers.

No. I am a lousy example. I can only tell you what I feel like, in that regard, and perhaps point to the fact that I have been unable to stop believing, even when I thought I wanted to stop.

That is because you are convinced by some evidence that it is true. See at times you did not want to believe but you remained convinced because of the evidence you think is reasonable. Why can't you believe the same about me? Why must you tell me that "I really don't want to believe" or that I "won't look at the evidence" which are lies.