WE ARE NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS BY DOING RIGHTEOUS DEEDS;

[Danthemailman]

The Reformation started over several issues, one of which was Sola Fide/Faith Alone. That issue split the church of the sixteenth century.

If the Catholic teaching of salvation by faith + works was NOT an issue, would Luther and the rest of the Protestants have taken the stand they did? Of course not. But all I can do here, if I even should, is to suggest you look closer into it with your church.

Catholic Answers, by the way, functions with the authorization off the Catholic Diocese of San Diego. It is listed in The Official Catholic Directory, the official listing of American Catholic organizations, priests, and bishops. These organizations are not interpreting scripture on their own.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

 

[Landon Caeli]

It was a rejection of the Catholic belief that good works, along with faith, are effective--and necessary--when it comes salvation. And there was nothing "new" at the time about the belief that pilgrimages, solemn devotional exercises, and works of charity can and do increase the chances of the church member being saved upon death.

I agree there were many Catholics historically, who acted in ways that could be seen as faith along with works were necessary for salvation...

So you would be right to say that the Church was oblivious to the concept of Sola Fide, and I think we appreciate our Protestant friends for their ability to show us something that hadn't really been considered before.

...But it was never a teaching or doctrine.

 

[Landon Caeli]

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

My understanding is that the author of that site (Joseph Mizzi), is a lay Catholic, who rightfully points out that the Church reacted harshly to Protestantism at times, but the "canons" he presented don’t actually match the current Canon of the Catholic Church, which have since been changed...

As evidenced below, here are today's Canons:

Code of Canon Law - Title I - Ecclesiastical Laws (Cann. 7-22)

 

[Danthemailman]

My understanding is that the author of that site (Joseph Mizzi), is a lay Catholic. Also, the "canons" he presented don’t actually match the actual Canon of the Catholic Church...

As evidenced below, here are the actual Canons:
View attachment 298850
Code of Canon Law - Title I - Ecclesiastical Laws (Cann. 7-22)

I'm a former Roman Catholic and the RCC teaches salvation by faith and works.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I'm a former Roman Catholic and the RCC teaches salvation by faith and works.

I believe some do and some don’t. But there is no official teaching, either as a practice in the current Canon (which can be binded or loosened), or in the doctrines of the CCC.

Though, I will admit, the Church reacted harshly to Protestantism, but nothing Ex Cathedra was ever declared regarding Sola Fide or otherwise.

 

[Albion]

I agree there were many Catholics historically, who acted in ways that could be seen as faith along with works were necessary for salvation...

So you would be right to say that the Church was oblivious to the concept of Sola Fide, and I think we appreciate our Protestant friends for their ability to show us something that hadn't really been considered before.

...But it was never a teaching or doctrine.

But Landon, several of us have shown you that the belief was (and is) official and also the norm in practice.

 

[Landon Caeli]

But Landon, several of us have shown you that the belief was (and is) official and also the norm in practice.

Nobody has been able to show where it is an official teaching though. Not that I've seen.

 

[fhansen]

1) you and I would never reach any agreement over who or what the "one body" and "one faith" is, (Ephesians 4:4-5)

We can agree that there must be one-and that implies a unity in basic beliefs as well.

3) you continue saying that "God must approach him first in order for him to be found even though we possess a sense of Him within us, having been made in His image". Salvation requires God's role and man's role. God has already fulfilled His role in man's salvation when He sent Christ to earth to die and shed His blood that clenases away all sins. So man must accomplish his role in obeying God (Hebrews 5:9) to be saved. And man is born with the ability to obey as well as the ability to disobey, Genesis 4:7. What I have not seen addressed yet is if God must FIRST act upon man before man can be righteous/justified/saved then that puts the culpability of the lost upon God and makes God a respecter of persons when He he has no such culpability nor a respecter of persons.

I wrote a much longer version of this but I’ll try to make it concise here. For it’s part the teachings of the Catholic church, some of them clarified and solidified over centuries as controversies arose much in the same manner as happened at Jerusalem when the apostles met there to address controversy, teaches that justification and salvation are not about man alone based on the law (which would be the Old Covenant) but that, under the New Covenant it’s also not about God alone even if grace is absolutely essential to initiate and hold it all together, but that it’s about communion/partnership, from beginning to end. Man must do his part and yet man can do nothing, including become authentically righteous, apart from God. Man was made for that communion with his Creator and is lost, unjust, disordered without it (the way we're born IOW, separated from direct knowledge of/union with God, "dead" to Him. This exile or separateness is the essence of the state sometimes known as "original sin" and the reason all men must be first of all "born again"). So faith is both a supernatural gift and a very human choice, a gift of God and yet a gift that man can reject and refuse, or embrace and act upon, thereby entering into this relationship which establishes man with God in a just or righteous state of being now, finally.

From there he must continue in this choice, in this partnership (which begins now and is meant to extend thru eternity BTW), remaining in God, responding to His continuously available grace, overcoming sin in the overall scheme of things and growing in righteousness, working out his salvation together with He who works in us as he picks up his cross daily and follows, doing God's will to the best of his abilities with whatever he’s been given to do so, with some given more, some less, and with more expected and demanded of those given more. So it’s not an either/or proposition, but both/and. Man is still obligated to be righteous under the New Covenant, but he cannot do it on his own. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”. John 15:5

 

[fhansen]

Sola Fide has been a divisive doctrine from it's conception. As a Catholic, I believe in Sola Fide, and I don’t understand how it's useful.

Sola Fide doesn't quite work with Catholicism-or with the ancient eastern churches either for that matter-unless, perhaps, qualified in certain ways that not all Protestants may agree with.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Sola Fide doesn't quite work with Catholicism-or with the ancient eastern churches either for that matter-unless, perhaps, qualified in certain ways that not all Protestants may agree with.

Are you referring to the Sacraments by chance? In that sense, I could understand why, considering the need for communion and reconciliation, though, I think it could be considered that our faith calls us to do certain things.

...Ultimately, I don’t believe Martin Luther or the early Protestants intended to consider the Sacraments to be "works", though it certainly may have become that for some modern Protestant sects.

 

[fhansen]

Are you referring to the Sacraments by chance?

No, I'm referring to the church's doctrines on justification-what it takes to be considered right in God's eyes..

 

[Landon Caeli]

No, I'm referring to the church's doctrines on justification-what it takes to be considered right in God's eyes..

Justification, too, is achieved through faith in Jesus Christ, and God's Grace, right..?

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[fhansen]

Justification, too, is achieved through faith in Jesus Christ, right..?

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Yes, it pleases God immensely as it's the very first step (on man's part) in being reconciled with Him, placing us into a just or righteous state of being now, reversing the state of separation that Adam effectively opted for with his act of disobedience. Faith is the basis of our rebirth. It's the beginning of salvation, the root and foundation of justification for man as the church teaches.

Love, properly understood, is the fruit that this communion should-and must-and will- blossom into as we remain in Christ. Love is the full true definition of righteousness for man, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are incidentally. It's all a work of grace and yet a work we cooperate in. The Church actually teaches in CCC 1022, quoting a 16th century believer:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[fhansen]

I believe some do and some don’t. But there is no official teaching, either as a practice in the current Canon (which can be binded or loosened), or in the doctrines of the CCC.

Though, I will admit, the Church reacted harshly to Protestantism, but nothing Ex Cathedra was ever declared regarding Sola Fide or otherwise.

The church spoke dogmatically on this matter, especially at the 2nd Council of Orange and the Council of Trent. I'll supply that material later. And Scripture agrees.

 

[fhansen]

The 2nd Council of Orange was convened in 529 to rule on the matter of grace, addressing the errors of Pelagianism. Disregard the anathemas as they were the language of the day, aimed at those who would disagree and equivalent to "let them be shunned", appropriately enough in those times and considering the subject matter. After 25 canons, all insisting on the absolute necessity of God's grace for man to turn to Him and be justified and saved, the council went on to say this under "Conclusions":

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness.

The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)

 

[fhansen]

At the Council of Trent, convened largely in response to the Reformation in the 1500s, the church addressed the matter of justification specifically. These teachings are still held to be valid by the church today:

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.

Canon 4.
If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.

Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 11.
If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost,[116] and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 18.
If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace,[121] impossible to observe, let him be anathema.

Canon 19.
If anyone says that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor forbidden, but free; or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians, let him be anathema.

With God all things are possible, including being who we were created to be-achieving the righteousness he designed us for-He never crated man to be a sinner after all. But He did create man to live in a state of communion, of willing and loving subjugation, to Him. That relationship begins here, with faith.

 

[BBAS 64]

Men having the ability to choose for or against God is found throughout the BIble and never been refuted. It's those who have argued for orginal sin/total depravity who have failed miserably.

Again, if God must UNCONDITIONALLY, ARBITRATILY make one righteous in order for one to be righteous then that makes GOD CULPABALE for the lost and makes God a RESPECTER OF PERSON when God is neither.

Good Day, Butterball

Let be clear here ..... Heresy is still and has always been Heresy.

That reality has not and does not change.

In Him,

Bill

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is true, but the Catholic (and EO) position aligns well with Scripture at very many points. We cannot discount the fact that sin will still separate us from God, that wanton, grave or serious sin, as outlined in Gal 5 & 6 or Rev 22:14-15, for example, simply has no place in His family and that we remain with the option to sin after justification, that, even as he's now equipped by the Spirit to win the battle, a struggle against sin may still ensue within the believer, reflected in passages such as Rom 8:12-13:
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”

We still have the freedom possibility to reject and turn back away from God IOW.

And Luther agrees, Luther writes that mortal sin and faith cannot coexist.

"On the other hand, if certain sectarists would arise, some of whom are perhaps already extant, and in the time of the insurrection [of the peasants] came to my own view, holding that all those who had once received the Spirit or the forgiveness of sins, or had become believers, even though they should afterwards sin, would still remain in the faith, and such sin would not harm them, and [hence] crying thus: “Do whatever you please; if you believe, it all amounts to nothing; faith blots out all sins,” etc.—they say, besides, that if any one sins after he has received faith and the Spirit, he never truly had the Spirit and faith: I have had before me [seen and heard] many such insane men, and I fear that in some such a devil is still remaining [hiding and dwelling].

It is, accordingly, necessary to know and to teach that when holy men, still having and feeling original sin, also daily repenting of and striving with it, happen to fall into manifest sins, as David into adultery, murder, and blasphemy, that then faith and the Holy Ghost has departed from them [they cast out faith and the Holy Ghost]. For the Holy Ghost does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so as to be accomplished, but represses and restrains it so that it must not do what it wishes. But if it does what it wishes, the Holy Ghost and faith are [certainly] not present. For St. John says, 1 John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, … and he cannot sin. And yet it is also the truth when the same St. John says, 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."- The Smalcald Articles, Part III, Article III, 42-43

Luther is careful to maintain that the consolation of the Gospel does not excuse evil, and that mortal sin and faith cannot co-exist; that is why the Christian is called to that life of repentance. It is why both Law and Gospel are preached, and each preached rightly. It is the Law that condemns us in our sin, and drives us to our knees in grief, sorrow, and repentance that we should confess our sins; it is the Gospel that consoles the sinner, that he is justified, and that his sins are indeed forgiven.

We should neither fall into the pit of despair and hopelessness, by which on account of our sin we realize our uncalculable distance from God and His glorious holiness and justice; for here is only death.

Nor should we grow arrogant and proud, that we have "now made it", and thus we can live faithless lives of sin and death--this too is death.

Life is found in Jesus. Jesus who gives us His life as pure gift, and keeping us in Him, He holds us in faith. The Law holds us accountable, the Gospel keeps us safe. And so we confess our sins, with faith in God's grace and forgiveness in Christ. So that when we hear those sacramental words, "Your sins are forgiven", we can rest in the confidence of their truth--we are forgiven, God forgives us, Christ died for us.

We aren't pretending to be anything that we aren't, but we are in God's presence in Christ confessing our nakedness even as Christ clothes us with Himself. We are naked and ashamed, and yet we are garmented with Jesus Christ in the boldness of His Gospel. We therefore stand before God justified, beating our breast, saying, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner". I, a sinner before God, dressed in Jesus with the full confidence of Jesus before His Father. In my shame I do not even gaze up into heaven, but in faith I hear the Gospel and lift my eyes to behold Jesus Christ with arms wide open on the cross, who brings me before God in glorious heaven in Himself.

We have been seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, who ascended and who sits and reigns at the right hand of the Father.

Even as we struggle and war between the old and the new man here on earth.

That's what we Lutherans mean when we talk about the paradox of the Simul, that we are simul iustus et peccator, both saint and sinner.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fhansen]

And Luther agrees, Luther writes that mortal sin and faith cannot coexist.

"On the other hand, if certain sectarists would arise, some of whom are perhaps already extant, and in the time of the insurrection [of the peasants] came to my own view, holding that all those who had once received the Spirit or the forgiveness of sins, or had become believers, even though they should afterwards sin, would still remain in the faith, and such sin would not harm them, and [hence] crying thus: “Do whatever you please; if you believe, it all amounts to nothing; faith blots out all sins,” etc.—they say, besides, that if any one sins after he has received faith and the Spirit, he never truly had the Spirit and faith: I have had before me [seen and heard] many such insane men, and I fear that in some such a devil is still remaining [hiding and dwelling].

It is, accordingly, necessary to know and to teach that when holy men, still having and feeling original sin, also daily repenting of and striving with it, happen to fall into manifest sins, as David into adultery, murder, and blasphemy, that then faith and the Holy Ghost has departed from them [they cast out faith and the Holy Ghost]. For the Holy Ghost does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so as to be accomplished, but represses and restrains it so that it must not do what it wishes. But if it does what it wishes, the Holy Ghost and faith are [certainly] not present. For St. John says, 1 John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, … and he cannot sin. And yet it is also the truth when the same St. John says, 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."- The Smalcald Articles, Part III, Article III, 42-43

Luther is careful to maintain that the consolation of the Gospel does not excuse evil, and that mortal sin and faith cannot co-exist; that is why the Christian is called to that life of repentance. It is why both Law and Gospel are preached, and each preached rightly. It is the Law that condemns us in our sin, and drives us to our knees in grief, sorrow, and repentance that we should confess our sins; it is the Gospel that consoles the sinner, that he is justified, and that his sins are indeed forgiven.

We should neither fall into the pit of despair and hopelessness, by which on account of our sin we realize our uncalculable distance from God and His glorious holiness and justice; for here is only death.

Nor should we grow arrogant and proud, that we have "now made it", and thus we can live faithless lives of sin and death--this too is death.

Life is found in Jesus. Jesus who gives us His life as pure gift, and keeping us in Him, He holds us in faith. The Law holds us accountable, the Gospel keeps us safe. And so we confess our sins, with faith in God's grace and forgiveness in Christ. So that when we hear those sacramental words, "Your sins are forgiven", we can rest in the confidence of their truth--we are forgiven, God forgives us, Christ died for us.

We aren't pretending to be anything that we aren't, but we are in God's presence in Christ confessing our nakedness even as Christ clothes us with Himself. We are naked and ashamed, and yet we are garmented with Jesus Christ in the boldness of His Gospel. We therefore stand before God justified, beating our breast, saying, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner". I, a sinner before God, dressed in Jesus with the full confidence of Jesus before His Father. In my shame I do not even gaze up into heaven, but in faith I hear the Gospel and lift my eyes to behold Jesus Christ with arms wide open on the cross, who brings me before God in glorious heaven in Himself.

We have been seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, who ascended and who sits and reigns at the right hand of the Father.

Even as we struggle and war between the old and the new man here on earth.

That's what we Lutherans mean when we talk about the paradox of the Simul, that we are simul iustus et peccator, both saint and sinner.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you-that was good, as usual. It would appear from this that Luther would maintain that persistent serious and unrepented sin will earn one death. And this makes sense. Certainly if one can still have faith while living like a devil that faith wouldn't help him much. And yet some object. I have no idea the percentage who believe this way but I find myself arguing fairly frequently with similar "sectarists" as mentioned above in your first paragraph holding the antinomian-type views referred to.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thank you-that was good, as usual. It would appear from this that Luther would maintain that persistent serious and unrepented sin will earn one death. And this makes sense. Certainly if one can still have faith while living like a devil that faith wouldn't help him much. And yet some object. I have no idea the percentage who believe this way but I find myself arguing fairly frequently with "sectarists" mentioned above in your first paragraph holding the antinomian-type views referred to.

It wouldn't make sense for the Scriptures to warn against "sin that leads to death" or against "making shipwreck" of our faith unless that was something that needed to be warned against. In Romans chapters 5-6 the Apostle speaks of the super-abundance of God's grace, and thus where there is sin there is grace; but is absolutely clear that this is not an excuse to sin "heaven forbid!"--instead the Apostle turns to the Sacrament of Holy Baptism to remind his audience to remember their baptism, where the old man died and the new man was born; and in light of what they have received from God to walk in obedience, dead to sin and alive to God.

Antinomianism is simply the other side of Legalism.

God's Law is serious and real, and we are to do it. Not as though we can earn our way into paradise; but because as God's people it's what we ought to be doing. Not by fretting over the things of the Torah which don't even apply anymore, but rather that in faith we fulfill the law in this one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Galatians 5:14). Thus the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled not by works, but by faith; and faith is at work in love.

-CryptoLutheran