JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[Leaf473]

God personally writing scripture on stone feels ceremonial? Why not paper than? It's not like He personally wrote a lot of scripture. In fact, the TEN, which includes the 4th are the ONLY scripture that our Savior literally wrote for us! What about God asking to REMEBBER His holy Sabbath does that feel ceremonial? Or placing the Ten in the most holy of holy in the Temple seems ceremonial?

Psalms 111:7 The works of His hands are faithful and right. All His Laws are true. 8 They stand strong forever and ever. They are done by what is true and right.

Hi imge,

Good to see you again!

God writing something with his finger doesn't feel ceremonial, the resulting commandment may.

When God came down to earth in the form of Jesus of nazareth, he told us to be sure to keep the weightier things of the law like justice, righteousness, and mercy, without neglecting all the other parts, like tithing mint and aloe.

Which carries more weight, God writing something with his finger or God descending and telling us to keep a whole body of laws? I think they carry about the same weight.

So Amen to Psalm 111, All of God's laws stand strong forever and ever!

 

[Bob S]

Laws are laws no matter how we categorize them and breaking any law that God has asked us to refrain from is sin. Some laws deal with civil issues, some deal with how we treat God and man, some, given only to Israel, dealt with rituals. Those ritual laws were only given to Israel some for the Levites, others for all.

Imge wrote:

God personally writing scripture on stone feels ceremonial?
Why not paper than? It's not like He personally wrote a lot of scripture. In fact, the TEN, which includes the 4th are the ONLY scripture that our Savior literally wrote for us!

The greatest commands given to Israel were not written with God's finger Imge. Your debate doesn't hold water. By the way, your premise that God wrote the ten commandments for US is false. He wrote them for the Israelites. Deut 5: 1
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:

6 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Were Your ancestors slaves in Egypt? Even if they were you are now under the new covenant. Either way no one is subject to the laws of the old covenant.

Feelings do not make something true. Some laws, I don't care how you feel, are not dealing with morality. The Holy day laws were ceremonial and existed for only one group of people. There is nothing in all of scripture that tells us that anyone except the Israelites ever kept the ceremonial days of the old covenant.

What about God asking to REMEBBER His holy Sabbath does that feel ceremonial?

I have no idea because God has never asked me to keep a day given only to Israel. In fact, He has never asked me to keep any day. All He has asked is that I assemble myself with believers

Or placing the Ten in the most holy of holy in the Temple seems ceremonial?

What would be wrong with it "seemingly" feeling ceremonial? Ceremonial laws were of most importance to Israel or God would not have asked them to observe them. They were equally as important as any moral laws in that system.

 

[Bob S]

Hi imge,

Good to see you again!

God writing something with his finger doesn't feel ceremonial, the resulting commandment may.

When God came down to earth in the form of Jesus of nazareth, he told us to be sure to keep the weightier things of the law like justice, righteousness, and mercy, without neglecting all the other parts, like tithing mint and aloe.

Which carries more weight, God writing something with his finger or God descending and telling us to keep a whole body of laws? I think they carry about the same weight.

Just one thing Leaf. Jesus lived under the old covenant laws and taught under that system. Jesus didn't come primarily to Gentiles and when speaking to the Pharisees in the verses you brought up, He, still under the old covenant, taught from that covenant. It was not to US He was speaking; it was to those still under the laws of the old covenant.

So Amen to Psalm 111, All of God's laws stand strong forever and ever!

They do??? I can name one of the many that ended that you probably will not dispute. The Levitical laws of sacrificing animals.

 

[Leaf473]

Just one thing Leaf. Jesus lived under the old covenant laws and taught under that system. Jesus didn't come primarily to Gentiles and when speaking to the Pharisees in the verses you brought up, He, still under the old covenant, taught from that covenant. It was not to US He was speaking; it was to those still under the laws of the old covenant.


They do??? I can name one of the many that ended that you probably will not dispute. The Levitical laws of sacrificing animals.

Yes, I agree that Jesus lived and taught under the Old testament. However, I think my good sister @imge believes that He taught under the new covenant.

I like to meet people where they are and, hopefully, grow together in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I think that the laws regarding animal sacrifices are still true and still stand, we just fulfill them differently today. There are some prophecies that kind of sound like animal sacrifice will be restored at some point, at least temporarily. Why would God do this? I don't know.

 

[Leaf473]

Yo friends,
I'm preparing for a trip tomorrow, so I may be incommunicado for a while.

I love you all!

 

[Bob S]

Yo friends,
I'm preparing for a trip tomorrow, so I may be incommunicado for a while.

I love you all!

Have a safe and good trip. Bob

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think your post is saying that "law" in Romans 7:7 refers to just the Ten commandments. I agree that Paul quotes one of the Ten. However, with careful Bible study, I believe it is more reasonable to conclude that Paul is using that commandment as an example of the entire law.

Sin according to the scriptures is not believing and following God's Word according to Paul in Romans 14:23 and breaking God's law according to John in 1 John 3:4. I am not saying or have I ever said sin is only breaking God's 10 commandments. The scriptures provided earlier were only to show that sin is breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments as that is exactly what the scriptures say verbatim (word for word) and that the purpose of Gods' 10 Commandments according to the scriptures supported by context and subject matter is to give us a knowledge of what sin is if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments..

For example we see from that the law being discussed in Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 defining what sin, is in application to breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments...

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The above defining what what Paul has already said in...

Romans 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

James also applying application to God's 10 commandments here...

James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.

As seen in the scriptures verbatim (word for word), God's Word (not mine) says that sin is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments which is what I applied these scriptures to earlier. So do you agree that sin is breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments once we have been given a knowledge of what sin is *James 4:17?

Subject matter for example to the above scriptures is not "Thou shalt not muzzle an ox" is it.

Of course all the above have application to Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath that is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. That is the hard truth though for many and why they seek to avoid talking about these scriptures

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yo friends,
I'm preparing for a trip tomorrow, so I may be incommunicado for a while.

I love you all!

Have a safe trip, much love!

 

[Leaf473]

Sin according to the scriptures is not believing and following God's Word according to Paul in Romans 14:23 and breaking God's law according to John in 1 John 3:4.

My impression was that you were saying that "law" in Romans 7:7 referred to just the Ten commandments.

Was my impression incorrect? If so, what do you say that "law" in Romans 7:7 refers to?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

My impression was that you were saying that "law" in Romans 7:7 referred to just the Ten commandments.

Was my impression incorrect? If so, what do you say that "law" in Romans 7:7 refers to?

What law is "thou shalt not covet"? - Exodus 20:17 referring to?

 

[Leaf473]

What law is "thou shalt not covet"? - Exodus 20:17 referring to?

I believe Paul is using it as an example of the entire law.

It is one of the 10 commandments, so maybe Paul means that the word "law" refers to the Ten commandments only. But that doesn't really fit the context, imo.

It is also a negative commandment, so maybe Paul is using it as an example of all the negative commandments? Again, it doesn't really fit the context.

It's a "neighbor" commandment, so maybe all the neighbor commandments? Again, not the context.

From the way Paul uses the word "law" throughout the book of Romans, and in that section in particular, I think he is referring to the entire law.

Here's how he begins the section
"Or don't you know, brothers (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man for as long as he lives?"

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe Paul is using it as an example of the entire law.

It is one of the 10 commandments, so maybe Paul means that the word "law" refers to the Ten commandments only. But that doesn't really fit the context, imo.

It is also a negative commandment, so maybe Paul is using it as an example of all the negative commandments? Again, it doesn't really fit the context.

It's a "neighbor" commandment, so maybe all the neighbor commandments? Again, not the context.

From the way Paul uses the word "law" throughout the book of Romans, and in that section in particular, I think he is referring to the entire law.

Here's how he begins the section
"Or don't you know, brothers (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man for as long as he lives?"

This does not answer my question to you. What law was Paul referring to in Romans 7:7? You do not have to answer the question if you do not want to just say so. I can understand why.

 

[BABerean2]

This does not answer my question to you. What law was Paul referring to in Romans 7:7? You do not have to answer the question if you do not want to just say so. I can understand why.

In the passage below Paul tells the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written: "REJOICE, O BARREN, YOU WHO DO NOT BEAR! BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR! FOR THE DESOLATE HAS MANY MORE CHILDREN THAN SHE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.


In the passage below the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



In the passage below we are not come to Mount Sinai, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai)
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


These passages contrast the two covenants, proving they are not one and the same.

.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

In the passage below Paul tells the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written: "REJOICE, O BARREN, YOU WHO DO NOT BEAR! BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR! FOR THE DESOLATE HAS MANY MORE CHILDREN THAN SHE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.


In the passage below the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



In the passage below we are not come to Mount Sinai, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai)
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


These passages contrast the two covenants, proving they are not one and the same.

.

I do not think anyone here is saying that the old covenant and the new covenants are the same did they? No one I know here also seeks to get their righteousness from the law. So what is the purpose of the scriptures you have provided? In the post you are quoting from I asked the question what law is Romans 7:7 talking about? There is nothing you have posted above that answers this question so why post these scriptures?

 

[Bob S]

No old covenant, no laws of that covenant. To uphold a covenant both parties of the covenant have to agree to the rules of the covenant. If one or both parties fail to abide by the rules the covenant becomes void, ceases to exist. In the case of the covenant given at Sinai, the Israelites continuously broke or disregarded the covenant. It finally ended at Calvary where Jesus instituted a new and better covenant without all the ritual laws of the covenant given at Sinai. Paul explains the doing away of the laws of the old covenant in his second letter to the Corinthians, 2Cor3:6-11. Because the old covenant had ended is also why the Judaizes were told in Paul's letter to the Colossians not to judge the new believers for not keeping the feast Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. He wrote that those things were only Shadows and reality is found in Jesus.

Of all the people living on this Earth when, at Sinai God gave but one nation new laws to abide by, all the other nations then and since were/are exempt from laws like the weekly Sabbath. All of you that believe that the Sabbath law somehow morphed into becoming a new covenant law please, by all means, step up and tell us how that happened.

 

[Leaf473]

This does not answer my question to you. What law was Paul referring to in Romans 7:7? You do not have to answer the question if you do not want to just say so. I can understand why.

Maybe I'm not understanding your question?

The law he is referring to is the entire law. Did you want me to define "entire law" more?

The commandment he's referring to is "don't covet", which he uses as an example.

Does that answer your question?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No old covenant, no laws of that covenant. To uphold a covenant both parties of the covenant have to agree to the rules of the covenant. If one or both parties fail to abide by the rules the covenant becomes void, ceases to exist. In the case of the covenant given at Sinai, the Israelites continuously broke or disregarded the covenant. It finally ended at Calvary where Jesus instituted a new and better covenant without all the ritual laws of the covenant given at Sinai. Paul explains the doing away of the laws of the old covenant in his second letter to the Corinthians, 2Cor3:6-11. Because the old covenant had ended is also why the Judaizes were told in Paul's letter to the Colossians not to judge the new believers for not keeping the feast Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. He wrote that those things were only Shadows and reality is found in Jesus.

Of all the people living on this Earth when, at Sinai God gave but one nation new laws to abide by, all the other nations then and since were/are exempt from laws like the weekly Sabbath. All of you that believe that the Sabbath law somehow morphed into becoming a new covenant law please, by all means, step up and tell us how that happened.

Of course we are in the new covenant now not the old covenant but that does not abolish God's 10 commandments. The old covenant was more than God's 10 commandments it included the Mosaic book of the laws for remission of sins (Exodus 24:7). It is the latter that are discontinued because they are fulfilled in the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17) based on better promises in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:1-6. Sorry Bob but a view that God's 10 commandments are abolished is not biblical as Jesus and all the apostles upheld God's law (10 commandments) in the new covenant (scripture support here) and everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant (scripture support here) Your claims that 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 is stating that Gods' 10 commandments are now abolished is in contradiction to what Paul says in Romans 3:31 and pretty much all of the new testament scriptures. Se here linked for as more detailed scripture response.

 

[Danthemailman]

No old covenant, no laws of that covenant. To uphold a covenant both parties of the covenant have to agree to the rules of the covenant. If one or both parties fail to abide by the rules the covenant becomes void, ceases to exist. In the case of the covenant given at Sinai, the Israelites continuously broke or disregarded the covenant. It finally ended at Calvary where Jesus instituted a new and better covenant without all the ritual laws of the covenant given at Sinai. Paul explains the doing away of the laws of the old covenant in his second letter to the Corinthians, 2Cor3:6-11. Because the old covenant had ended is also why the Judaizers were told in Paul's letter to the Colossians not to judge the new believers for not keeping the feast Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. He wrote that those things were only Shadows and reality is found in Jesus.

Of all the people living on this Earth when, at Sinai God gave but one nation new laws to abide by, all the other nations then and since were/are exempt from laws like the weekly Sabbath. All of you that believe that the Sabbath law somehow morphed into becoming a new covenant law please, by all means, step up and tell us how that happened.

Excellent post brother!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Excellent post brother!

How is it an excellent post? Are you of the same view that God's 10 commandments are abolished and we are now free to do what ever we wish? That teaching is not biblical according to Jesus (Matthew 5:17-19) of the Apostles (scripture support here).

 

[Bob S]

We hear the same old junk Dan over and over.

How is it an excellent post Dan? Are you of the same view that God's 10 commandments are abolished and we are not free to do what ever we wish? That teaching is not biblical according to Jesus (Matthew 5:17-19) of the Apostles (scripture support here).

That is correct LGW the 10 are abolished and we are NOT free to do whatever we wish.

I get so tired of correcting SDAs when they tell us we are free to do whatever we wish. I answer to Jesus and His Royal Law of ❤. You refer to Heb 4 as the verses that tell us we are under the ritual Sabbath command. Well, for one thing the writer of Hebrews was writing to Sabbath observing Jews not about Sabbath observance but about finding rest in Jesus which the writer says they never did. He was not writing to Gentiles or Gentile Christians so your "proof texts" don't prove anything and are like many of the ways you do disservice to those who read your posts. As for the remainder of the 10, they are neatly found in all the many ways we can dishonor God and our fellow man. I am certainly glad that the laws of the 10 that dealt with morality are mentioned for our edification. The 10 didn't even contain the greatest commands of love to God and Love to our fellow man.