Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[Speedwell]

Just wondering.

Since science makes a mess of who came when, I was just wondering if they got anything right.

How do you know? You're not using the Bible as a science textbook again, are you?

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you know? You're not using the Bible as a science textbook again, are you?

History book.

And what did you mean by "again"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

God knew it before He instituted it, so He must know something about it you're overlooking.

Just because a particular doctrine is abused, doesn't make it a "failed version of Christianity."

And I have to ask:

Do they abuse it in spite of the Bible, or with respect to It, in your eyes?

I say in spite of It.

Or, and this is far more likely, you are just misinterpreting the Bible again.

And I have seen them violate almost every teaching of Jesus. Too many of them are "Christian of convenience".

 

[trophy33]

History book.

Do you think that the ancient Hebrews were great historians?

We already settled that the Bible is not inspired to the level of words, so you must rely on the genius of the human ancient Hebrews.

 

[Lion IRC]

I knew you'd do this. You dismiss reality. There is no way that a wooden vessel of that size would have survived.

Survived WHAT?
Show your work.
Beam sizes, structural load bearing capacity, cellulose wood fibre tensile strength, buoyancy calculations...empirical data.
Come on! That's what 'rational' thinkers ought to be able to do.
You are the one making the unsubstantiated claim. Can you back it up?
I say the Ark floats. Thats my definition of "survive".
You say that's impossible. WHY?

The ark story doesn't work...

Which chapter/verse ????
Have you read the text? Which part doesn't 'work' ?

yet you deliberately set up rules that allow you to ignore reality.

Nope. The rules are that if you expect to falsify any specific bible verse you should provide specific evidence. Youre just making a vague brute fact claim - unsupported.

You have no interest in an actual discussion about the plausibility of the flood story.

...says the person who wont/can't discuss their alleged evidence against the biblical account of the flood.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Survived WHAT?
Show your work.
Beam sizes, structural load bearing capacity, cellulose wood fibre tensile strength, buoyancy calculations...empirical data.
Come on! That's what 'rational' thinkers ought to be able to do.
You are the one making the unsubstantiated claim. Can you back it up?
I say the Ark floats. Thats my definition of "survive".
You say that's impossible. WHY?



Which chapter/verse ????
Have you read the text? Which part doesn't 'work' ?



Nope. The rules are that if you expect to falsify any specific bible verse you should provide specific evidence. Youre just making a vague brute fact claim - unsupported.



...says the person who wont/can't discuss their alleged evidence against the biblical account of the flood.

One of the first signs that one has lost the argument are attempts to shift the burden of proof. It can be shown why a large vessel runs into problems. Wooden sea vessels simply do not have the strength necessary as demonstrated by the USS Wyoming. And the fact that the Ark would have collapsed is the smallest of problems for the story.

I have yet to see you explain why waking up in an ice filled bathtub missing a kidney on the wrong side of town is not a real danger. The Flood story predicts that that would be a real thing.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I mean any evidence for your statement that God missed something.

Egypt. China. India. The Andes.

 

[trophy33]

Egypt. China. India. The Andes.

What with them?

 

[Mr Laurier]

Including Israel?

The criminal occupation in Palestine did not invade until the 20th century.

 

[Speedwell]

I say the Ark floats.

And you don't have beam sizes, structural load bearing capacity, cellulose wood fibre tensile strength, buoyancy calculations...or any other empirical data either. Modern engineering experience (some of which has been presented here) suggests that a wooden vessel such as the Ark described in the Bible might remain intact and float for a very short while if not exposed to a heavy seaway. Until you can show us any evidence at all that Noah's Ark actually existed it remains a speculation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you think that the ancient Hebrews were great historians?

Better than the ones we have now. They were there, we weren't.

I once made up this conversation to effectively make that point:

Shem: What's this trash you wrote, Nimrod; are you okay!?
Nimrod: Don't start on me again, uncle; you've always looked down on us Hamites.
Shem: That's garbage too! You used to be a mighty hunter before the LORD, what went wrong?
Nimrod: You think you Shemites are so much better than us, just because my grandfather was cursed for what his father did to your father in that tent that day.
Shem: I watched you grow up, Nimrod, and how you used to love the LORD so much; but somewhere along the line you went astray and broke away from the rest of us and went and formed your own little empire. Well ... you do what you want, but as long as I live, I'll make sure my eyewitness testimony trumps your lies.
Nimrod: And what makes you an authority on the Flood over me?
Shem: I was there! Remember??? I was on the Ark ... you weren't!
Nimrod: Oh, that's right ... somehow I forgot ... what with there being no evidence and all.
Shem: [facepalms]

The Sumerian Flood Narrative

 

[Speedwell]

The trouble with using the Bible as a history book is that you have only one unattested source, which means that historians are not likely to take it very seriously.

 

[trophy33]

Better than the ones we have now. They were there, we weren't.

Who are "they", exactly? Do you know the names of authors and editors of Genesis texts?

 

[AV1611VET]

Egypt. China. India. The Andes.

Egypt = from Noah's grandson.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

China = from Noah's great grandson.

Genesis 10:15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,

 

[Mr Laurier]

Egypt = from Noah's grandson.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

China = from Noah's great grandson.

Genesis 10:15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,

Huh?
No and no.
Led Zeppelin 24:37 And blarg begat Frab and Goob.

 

[AV1611VET]

What with them?

They are feeble attempts to discredit the Flood.

 

[AV1611VET]

The criminal occupation in Palestine did not invade until the 20th century.

Exodus 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Exodus 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.

Entrobus 47;63 Huh? What are you prattling now?
39 Huh? The dukes of Edom? What is this crapeth?
45 Huh? Whateth are you oneth about now?

 

[trophy33]

Egypt = from Noah's grandson.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

China = from Noah's great grandson.

Genesis 10:15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,

When we accept that all today's main nations descended from the first people in Mesopotamia after the flood, we must push the flood much more back to the past than most creationists propose.

Because China was already there when they propose the flood happened.

 

[AV1611VET]

Modern engineering experience (some of which has been presented here) suggests that a wooden vessel such as the Ark described in the Bible might remain intact and float for a very short while if not exposed to a heavy seaway.

Modern engineering can't even begin to build the Ark like it was built in Noah's time.

I think the best way to describe it would be a giant Jenga tower.

No screws, no nails, no nuts, no bolts, no fasteners -- just wood laid on top of wood and then coated inside and outside with pitch.

Modern engineering wouldn't be able to build the first two feet of the Ark.

Noah built the Ark, modern engineering built the Florida footbridge.