Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[AV1611VET]

Look. Just tell me what your script says happened.
Stop playing this idiotic game of teasing out the "real" story by nibbling me to death.

Sure.

You gave up all this:

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

To become an atheist?

 

[inquiring mind]

The thing that puzzles me about the 'Black Sea Flood' hypothesis is that at present there are several large rivers (the Danube, the Dniester, the Dnieper and the Don in Europe, and the Sakarya and the Kizil Irmak in Turkey) that flow into the Black Sea. As a result the level of the Black Sea is higher than that of the Mediterranean and the present water flow is from the Black Sea into the Mediterranean.

If the same rivers existed when the Black Sea was cut off from the Mediterranean, they should have filled the Black Sea basin until the sea overflowed into the Mediterranean, as it does at present. A flow of water from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea could only occur if the present rivers did not exist, or if their flow was much reduced. Can anybody explain this and show where I am wrong?

I have read at least one research proposal (?) that counters the conventional idea and suggests the same thing.

 

[inquiring mind]

The thing that puzzles me about the 'Black Sea Flood' hypothesis is that at present there are several large rivers (the Danube, the Dniester, the Dnieper and the Don in Europe, and the Sakarya and the Kizil Irmak in Turkey) that flow into the Black Sea. As a result the level of the Black Sea is higher than that of the Mediterranean and the present water flow is from the Black Sea into the Mediterranean.

If the same rivers existed when the Black Sea was cut off from the Mediterranean, they should have filled the Black Sea basin until the sea overflowed into the Mediterranean, as it does at present. A flow of water from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea could only occur if the present rivers did not exist, or if their flow was much reduced. Can anybody explain this and show where I am wrong?

From a personal perspective, bringing into question and disconnecting the regional flood notion from the idea of glacial melt would make more sense for those who believe Noah’s Flood occurred.

 

[MIDutch]

Sure.

You gave up all this:

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

To become an atheist?

Those passages only mean something to those who believe those passages mean something.

Alternatively, Hindus are not atheists. Those passages (while poetic and flowery in their optimism) probably don't mean anything to them either.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Sure.

You gave up all this:

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

To become an atheist?

No. I never gave up any lines of nonsense.
I gave up NOTHING. Nor did I ever decide to become an atheist.
I escaped from self delusion.
I accepted the obvious. That the gods are nothing more than our own reflection, as we want ourselves to be. We create our gods. And we can escape from them.

 

[AV1611VET]

I escaped from self delusion.

Then why do you look back and say you were a Christian?

That's like someone claiming he was once a fisherman, and when someone asks him why he gave up the joy of fishing, the fresh fish he tasted, and the outdoor lifestyle, claims he doesn't even know what a fish looks like, let alone tastes like. Then claims he was deluded during that time.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Then why do you look back and say you were a Christian?

Because I used to be a christian.

That's like someone claiming he was once a fisherman, and when someone asks him why he gave up the joy of fishing, the fresh fish he tasted, and the outdoor lifestyle, claims he doesn't even know what a fish looks like, let alone tastes like. Then claims he was deluded during that time.

No. Its like someone claiming he used to believe in Santa Claus. But he grew up.

 

[trophy33]

Then why do you look back and say you were a Christian?

Because I used to be a christian.
No. Its like someone claiming he used to believe in Santa Claus. But he grew up.

I think you simply do not have the same definition of a Christian.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because I used to be a christian.

Did you believe in Eternal Security (once saved, always saved)?

 

[AV1611VET]

I think you simply do not have the same definition of a Christian.

I totally agree.

But I think it's against the rules here to say someone isn't a Christian, but not against the rules to say someone wasn't a Christian.

So I'll keep my comments to myself.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Did you believe in Eternal Security (once saved, always saved)?

Nope. We believed in Jesus, the one and only son of Jehovah. Born to a virgin named Mary. Died as a perfect sacrifice, and resurrected on the third day.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I think you simply do not have the same definition of a Christian.

That may be.
Jesus seems very unimportant to many modern American christian fundamentalists.
But to mainstream christians, he is the most important figure of all time

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope. We believed in Jesus, the one and only son of Jehovah. Born to a virgin named Mary. Died as a perfect sacrifice, and resurrected on the third day.

Um ... okay.

Did you understand my question?

What you just now said was pertinent to you getting saved.

And after having been born again, were you taught Eternal Security?

 

[AV1611VET]

Jesus seems very unimportant to many modern American christian fundamentalists.

Then they aren't fundamentalists.

 

[trophy33]

That may be.
Jesus seems very unimportant to many modern American christian fundamentalists.
But to mainstream christians, he is the most important figure of all time

I rather think that when you identify your past as a Christian, you mean that you believed Christian statements.

And Av1611 is talking rather about tasting spiritual realities, joy, peace, knowing God personally. Thats why he asks why to leave such things.

Thats why the misunderstanding.

 

[AV1611VET]

I rather think that when you identify your past as a Christian, you mean that you believed Christian statements.

And Av1611 is talking rather about tasting spiritual realities, joy, peace, knowing God personally. Thats why he asks why to leave such things.

Thats why the misunderstanding.

I'd say that sums it up nicely.

 

[trophy33]

I'd say that sums it up nicely.

Anyway, you still did not explain how is it possible that we have two versions of Our Father when the Bible is inspired to the level of single words

 

[trophy33]

Jesus seems very unimportant to many modern American christian fundamentalists.

Some of them really seem to care more about the ancient cosmology than about spreading the kingdom of God

 

[Mr Laurier]

Um ... okay.

Did you understand my question?

I understood the words and their normal meaning. Of course with you, anything is possible.

What you just now said was pertinent to you getting saved.

It was and is CORE christianity.

And after having been born again, were you taught Eternal Security?

We never had your "Eternal Security". We had Jesus.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I rather think that when you identify your past as a Christian, you mean that you believed Christian statements.

I also believed in Jesus. You left that part out.
I believed in Jesus. And I begged him to wash away my "sin" of being a "halfbreed".
I prayed almost constantly, to Jesus, At first to forgive me, and later... to kill me.

And Av1611 is talking rather about tasting spiritual realities, joy, peace, knowing God personally. Thats why he asks why to leave such things.

As a child growing up in a dumping ground for unwanted children, I tasted adult penis, my own blood, and constant terror. The same adults who told me that I was going to Hell for being a "halfbreed savage" also took pride in sodomizing me.

Thats why the misunderstanding.

Ah.
Ok.