Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[trophy33]

I see. So I see you put down you're a Christian (and correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you're of a type that takes Jesus words like you're at a buffet restaurant .....you pick and choose whatever you prefer. You must like some words for why call yourself a Christian. How do you even know that ones you like have any certainty at all if you're picking and choosing? And out of respect to the Almighty God I don't have to pretend ANYTHING. I consider his word a SURE word. 2 Pt1:19

To follow the Bible to its every literal word does not make us a Christian, it makes us a Biblian or something like that.

We are Christians when we are born again, have His Spirit in our hearts and when we trust that Jesus is Christ.

Even this forum on which you operate states that Christian is a person accepting at least the Nicean Creed. And the Nicean Creed is much more shorter than the full Bible.

He would expect that he shouldn't have to!

I somehow do not trust that you can speak for Him.

Why should Jesus say, now remember the Ark was 500 feet long!

Exactly, its such a useless detail. So why dont you follow Him and spread only the message that is really important?

These people HAD FAITH as people of Israel in the credibility of the story!

You extrapolate "credibility" to a nonsensical extremes.

Jesus had FAITH in the Genesis account and that's good enough for me. I consider him Lord and his words ALL OF THEM are full of authority and truth.

Then, follow Him and stop talking about something He did not talk about. Talk about the kingdom of God, that people should repent and believe in God and Christ.
Not about ancient cosmology or technical details of the flood. Jesus did not do that.

 

[Larniavc]

I would say anyone outside of a foxhole wouldn't be available for questioning.

Ha! What I meant was anyone not needing a foxhole- implying the the more terrible things that happen to a person the more Christian they may be.

 

[Bradskii]

Ha! What I meant was anyone not needing a foxhole- implying the the more terrible things that happen to a person the more Christian they may be.

A few years ago my wife and I were involved in a traffic incident where, for a few long seconds, I was pretty certain that our time was up (it unfortunately was for three others). And standing together shortly after, waiting for the emergency services, she said something odd. She said 'I didn't scream, did I'. I think she wanted to confirm to herself that she'd kept it together. Which she had.

And then I thought about my reactions. I'd thought about our kids and who was going to tell them. I wondered how much it was going to hurt. But I realised I'd made no pact with anyone for help. There was no 'Please God...'.

Strangely enough I felt...reassured by that. I'd always classed myself as an atheist and it seemed that when the chips were down I didn't unconsciously play the Pascal card. I'd been in the foxhole and emerged still an atheist.

 

[Astrophile]

The "Black Sea Flood" (I have the book here somewhere...) is caused by

1. the sea level *dropping* during the ice age as the water was redistributed into ice sheets

2. The Mediterranean Sea dropped below the level of the straight of Gibralter isolating it from the oceans, causing it to drop even further.

3. The Black Sea was cut off from the Med.

4. The Oceans and Med started to rise, and overtopped the land separating Med and Black seas. This rush of water caused the Black Sea to rise fairly rapidly, but in a fashion that would cause to shore to expand at roughly a walking pace.

5. The people abandoning their villages on the dry bottom of the Black Sea carried out stories of a mass flood that forced them out of their villages.

The thing that puzzles me about the 'Black Sea Flood' hypothesis is that at present there are several large rivers (the Danube, the Dniester, the Dnieper and the Don in Europe, and the Sakarya and the Kizil Irmak in Turkey) that flow into the Black Sea. As a result the level of the Black Sea is higher than that of the Mediterranean and the present water flow is from the Black Sea into the Mediterranean.

If the same rivers existed when the Black Sea was cut off from the Mediterranean, they should have filled the Black Sea basin until the sea overflowed into the Mediterranean, as it does at present. A flow of water from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea could only occur if the present rivers did not exist, or if their flow was much reduced. Can anybody explain this and show where I am wrong?

 

[AV1611VET]

Knowing that He was going to drown everyone? It's got me beat as well.

If anyone is beat, Brad, it's their fault.

Some try very hard not to understand, and they're good at it.

 

[AV1611VET]

So if God had to step in to make sure all those things worked - that the ark didn't fall apart, that all the animals could get there, that there was enough water, that all the evidence afterwards was cleaned up, all of that... Why did he even bother with the flood in the first place?

God works in mysterious ways, doesn't He?

As I've said before, there was nothing that was accomplished that God couldn't have accomplished just as easily by snapping his fingers.

And here we go again.

I'm not going to explain the snapping of His fingers with you again, until I see a light bulb come on.

For some reason, you think snapping them out of existence would be preferable to a flood; and I've explained this to you more than once.

Of course, the Flood was an act of mercy, so I guess it would be hard for some to understand.

Their diplomas get in the way.

 

[AV1611VET]

Have you not noticed that everything that you think might have a natural answer ends up being explained naturally.

If it happened naturally, it happened naturally; if it happened spiritually, it happened spiritually.

And everything that doesn't...God did that.

If God did it, God did it; if nature did it, nature did it.

I'm pretty sure that you know what fallacy that is.

The Blocked Credit Fallacy?

Those diplomas get in the way, don't they?

 

[AV1611VET]

So you fall back to the standard "Goddidit" response.

Credit where credit is due.

 

[AV1611VET]

You didn't with the 'roos.

Either that, or I did.

You just made it up.

I warned you I would -- more than once.

Here's your warning again:

My Heuristics:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

Stop pouting about it.

God can move anything from A to B if he wanted to so that's what He did.

That's about the size of it.

And unless and until you come up with a better explanation as to how your 'roos got from the mountains of Ararat to [what is now] Australia, without said explanation contradicting the Bible, I'll stick with my own speculations.

Something that can explain everything explains nothing.

That's a mental block showing.

 

[Speedwell]

You guys keep looking for regional floods... I don't think he was looking for a regional flood when he went to the Black Sea, or afterwards.

So you think Ballard was a good creationist fellow looking for Noah's flood when he found the regional Black Sea flood instead?

 

[Bradskii]

If it happened naturally, it happened naturally; if it happened spiritually, it happened spiritually.If God did it, God did it; if nature did it, nature did it.The Blocked Credit Fallacy?

Those diplomas get in the way, don't they?

But this then becomes a creationists MO:

If it obviously happened naturally, then emphasise that fact.
If there is no evidence that it happened naturally, then quote the bible.
If there is evidence that it cannot have happened naturally, then say that 'God did it'.

That's the basis for fundamentalist dogma. If you think it's the basis for an honest discussion, then so be it.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'd been in the foxhole and emerged still an atheist.

Are you bragging or complaining?

 

[AV1611VET]

But this then becomes a creationists MO:

If it obviously happened naturally, then emphasise that fact.
If there is no evidence that it happened naturally, then quote the bible.
If there is evidence that it cannot have happened naturally, then say that 'God did it'.

I like mine better.

That's the basis for fundamentalist dogma. If you think it's the basis for an honest discussion, then so be it.

It takes two to have an honest discussion -- and a lightbulb.

 

[Bradskii]

That's a mental block showing.

Hardly. It describes your method. There is no difference to you between that which is natural and that which is supernatural. If a gap is found in any argument that you make that shows it cannot have happened that way, then guess who fills it?

You have a stack of joker cards that will trump any hand and you don't even make any attempt to hide them. They're sitting on the table in full view. And I think that you actually believe you are playing by the rules. But everyone who sits at your table comes for the chat. To see where the discussion goes. To see how long it takes before you slap one of the jokers down. We only bring Monopoly money. You surely don't believe your hands are being treated seriously..?

 

[Bradskii]

Are you bragging or complaining?

Simple statement of fact. Sometimes we can fool ourselves. My avatar has said that they're the easiest person to fool. I felt confident back then that I wasn't.

 

[Bradskii]

I like mine better.

I was describing yours. No wonder you can deny using it. You don't even know that you're doing it.

 

[Larniavc]

the Flood was an act of mercy

Remind me never to be at God's mercy.

 

[Mr Laurier]

When you eat their pie what are going to do?

Huh?
If a lady billionaire wants me to eat her pie, Well, Never disappoint a lady.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I don't think any vessel ever made would have been able to withstand the turbulence that was generated by the Flood.

Except, of course, the Ark.

Built by Noah and his sons, rendered indestructible by God until after the Flood, and finally dismantled by Noah to build his home.

So if Noah dismantled it... what does Ron Wyatt discover every few years?

 

[Mr Laurier]

Even when I was still a christian, I knew that the bible flood story was mythology. A parable meant to teach us something deeper. Not a factual account of an actual event.
The story was just too far fetched to be real.
No adult can buy this.