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What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

Hans Blaster

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A macroevolution physical rather than genetic change is for example how a three chamber heart became four. THe problem is the replumbing. The flows , timings and sequences have to reverse. It is not adequate explanation to propose a vestigial chamber to gradually gain more significance. A surgeon would struggle to keep a patient alive undertaking such an operation reversing of flows. So how did blind variation do this?

You might need to work on your Google-fu, Mike.

This was one of several articles I found while searching for the evolution of the four-chambered heart.

Secrets of the Four Chambers Revealed by Reptile Hearts

It focuses on the discovery of the molecular factors involved in the development of four-chambered relative to three-chambered hearts, including noting that their is a partial septum in the 3.5-chambered turtle heart that shows effects from the same transcription factor.

For additional discussion search "evolution four chambered heart".
 
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Frank Robert

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Basically you have to appeal to your own ignorance and claim that because science can't explain a first cause, there probably wasn't one. But the very existance of rules in the universe should make the scientific argument for you, that something or someone outside of the universe had to set things in motion.
Science doesn't work like you want to believe it does. You are making a claim that science is ignorant because it has not cracked OOL or first cause. If science never does it may disappoint a few researchers but unlike creationists science does not claim to have an answer for everything.
 
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Mountainmike

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It is worth a look.
Not this article which says little but the underlying idea.
I have no objection to problems solved.
There was little when I last looked at it some years ago.
The point I make is there are big and small changes so “ no such thing as macro evolution” is a strange statement.

You might need to work on your Google-fu, Mike.

This was one of several articles I found while searching for the evolution of the four-chambered heart.

Secrets of the Four Chambers Revealed by Reptile Hearts

It focuses on the discovery of the molecular factors involved in the development of four-chambered relative to three-chambered hearts, including noting that their is a partial septum in the 3.5-chambered turtle heart that shows effects from the same transcription factor.

For additional discussion search "evolution four chambered heart".
 
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Frank Robert

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So macro evolution problems are very real.
Macro evolution is simply a series of micro evolution based on the exact same natural processes. So let's substitute "kinds" for macro evolution.
So "kinds" problems are very real.

Fixed it for you.
 
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Mountainmike

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Are you really interested in exploring possible solutions to those problems--which is what scientists do--or would your rather they remained unsolved as a support for your own position?



A statement which science does not make.

You misunderstand my position.
I don’t like pure speculation for voids ( like abiogenesis) being described as facts. It isn’t science.
I’m happy with explanations.

Which thereby states this thread title a fraud.
abiogenesis does not need falsification, it is a pure speculation that needs verification.
 
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AV1611VET

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It is worth a look.
Not this article which says little but the underlying idea.
I have no objection to problems solved.
There was little when I last looked at it some years ago.
The point I make is there are big and small changes so “ no such thing as macro evolution” is a strange statement.
Evidently evolution comes with prefix phobia now.
 
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Hans Blaster

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It is worth a look.
Not this article which says little but the underlying idea.
I have no objection to problems solved.
There was little when I last looked at it some years ago.
The point I make is there are big and small changes so “ no such thing as macro evolution” is a strange statement.

The point, is that here's a fairly "macro" change that not only seems to be tied to a primary transcription factor (recall that bodies are grown, not 3D printed) during development, but there are intermediate cases (turtles) and two independent evolutions of the same basic feature (in mammals and birds). In the full 4-chambered evolution, the advantage seems to driven by being warm-blooded or perhaps it enables it.

The earlier in development a change is applied the bigger the impact can be, another way in which "micro" changes to genes and gene expression can appear "macro".
 
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Mountainmike

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As for the thread itself, I understand the motive of the op, but clearly a model can only yield conclusions put in the model. If only apple and pear are in the model, it cannot say banana. Man did not put God in the model so it cannot by definition determine God or banana as an output. That does not invalidate God or banana as a mechanism or conclusion only the limitation of our model. So proving miracles by science is philosophically impossible even if miraculous in reality! The model can only say “ don’t know”


Onward. Such as abiogenesis doesn’t need falsification, it is a speculation so needs verification, there is nothing to falsify. I’m not against it but it is not a given.

Evolution is more of a problem because it is not a single coherent whole. Dogs with longer legs can be bread even if it was Gods design!
So some of evolution is clearly valid regardless. It does not disprove God if true.

Also in the narrow terms of the OP - evolution , abiogenesis are set somehow as a dichotomy to theistic origin of life. That is a false dichotomy.

now to a tangible test,
Darwin’s ToE is best described as common descent , One part of the evolution framework.

The OP may be unaware.

Darwin himself states a falsification he states something along the lines: “ if any life can be found that is not the result of successive small change it will disprove my theory”.

As I have pointed out, the forensic evidence of so called Eucharistic miracles ( and other phenomena - not just that - take forensics of the Cochabamba statute) show live cells that appeared which did not come from successive small change. It clearly disproves Darwin in his own terms.

Even if proven, It does not of itself invalidate cells occuring from Darwin’s path as well so in that sense Darwin was too hasty.
 
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Astrid

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You might need to work on your Google-fu, Mike.

This was one of several articles I found while searching for the evolution of the four-chambered heart.

Secrets of the Four Chambers Revealed by Reptile Hearts

It focuses on the discovery of the molecular factors involved in the development of four-chambered relative to three-chambered hearts, including noting that their is a partial septum in the 3.5-chambered turtle heart that shows effects from the same transcription factor.

For additional discussion search "evolution four chambered heart".
A course in comparative anatomy
would readily explain heart evolution.
But that takes work.
Easier to make things up and attribute them
to God.
 
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Astrid

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As for the thread itself, I understand the motive of the op, but clearly a model can only yield conclusions put in the model. If only apple and pear are in the model, it cannot say banana. Man did not put God in the model so it cannot by definition determine God or banana as an output. That does not invalidate God or banana as a mechanism or conclusion only the limitation of our model. So proving miracles by science is philosophically impossible even if miraculous in reality! The model can only say “ don’t know”


Onward. Such as abiogenesis doesn’t need falsification, it is a speculation so needs verification, there is nothing to falsify. I’m not against it but it is not a given.

Evolution is more of a problem because it is not a single coherent whole. Dogs with longer legs can be bread even if it was Gods design!
So some of evolution is clearly valid regardless. It does not disprove God if true.

Also in the narrow terms of the OP - evolution , abiogenesis are set somehow as a dichotomy to theistic origin of life. That is a false dichotomy.

now to a tangible test,
Darwin’s ToE is best described as common descent , One part of the evolution framework.

The OP may be unaware.

Darwin himself states a falsification he states something along the lines: “ if any life can be found that is not the result of successive small change it will disprove my theory”.

As I have pointed out, the forensic evidence of so called Eucharistic miracles ( and other phenomena - not just that - take forensics of the Cochabamba statute) show live cells that appeared which did not come from successive small change. It clearly disproves Darwin in his own terms.

It does not of itself invalidate cells occuring from Darwin’s path as well so in that sense Darwin was too hasty.

IF your "miracle" were true ot would be a world wide sensation.

Woo woo ain't science, or real.
 
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Speedwell

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You misunderstand my position.
I don’t like pure speculation for voids ( like abiogenesis) being described as facts. It isn’t science.
I’m happy with explanations.
Well, perhaps it would better if you found people who describe abiogenesis as a fact and argue with them about it.
 
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Mountainmike

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IF your "miracle" were true ot would be a world wide sensation.

Woo woo ain't science, or real.
It was. Then quietly forgotten. Like many others.
Atheists don’t want the truth: they want confirmation.

there is nothing woo woo about forensics.
Many qualified pathologists were involved in analysing many phenomena.

But take Lawrence - son of the Nobel physicist who invented the cyclotron, is a well qualified pathologist who decides cause of death in thousands of deceased. Acts as expert witness in many criminal trials.

He was shown samples and asked to analyse without being told origin: stated the white cells in one of the samples ( that case scab from a statue ) were proof of life. Also that the scab itself is proof of life. He identified facial skin cells. The bleeding was caught live on camera in a statue CT scanned that proved no channels or possibility of fraud. Also analysed a Eucharistic miracle sample. Validated live cells in that.

nothing woo woo. Just good forensics.
Like most atheists your faith won’t let you look at it objectively.
 
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Mountainmike

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Well, perhaps it would better if you found people who describe abiogenesis as a fact and argue with them about it.
Point I was making is the thread title presumes it , in order to require a falsification. If it’s speculation it needs verification not falsification.
 
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Speedwell

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Point I was making is the thread title presumes it , in order to require a falsification. If it’s speculation it needs verification not falsification.
That's nothing but a quibble. The OP is a thought experiment based on a false assumption, conceived by a person who is convinced that abiogenesis never happened.
 
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AV1611VET

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Can you elaborate on that?
People don't like the terms microevolution and macroevolution; despite the fact that they are acceptable words found in the dictionary.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It was. Then quietly forgotten. Like many others.
Atheists don’t want the truth: they want confirmation.

there is nothing woo woo about forensics.
Many qualified pathologists were involved in analysing many phenomena.

But take Lawrence - son of the Nobel physicist who invented the cyclotron, is a well qualified pathologist who decides cause of death in thousands of deceased. Acts as expert witness in many criminal trials.

He was shown samples and asked to analyse without being told origin: stated the white cells in one of the samples ( that case scab from a statue ) were proof of life. Also that the scab itself is proof of life. He identified facial skin cells. The bleeding was caught live on camera in a statue CT scanned that proved no channels or possibility of fraud. Also analysed a Eucharistic miracle sample. Validated live cells in that.

nothing woo woo. Just good forensics.
Like most atheists your faith won’t let you look at it objectively.
Provide valid sources for your claims. If you can't it only looks as if you were pushing woo woo.
 
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