That decision was made before it came off the potter's wheel,
"the right to make for ignoble purposes" (
Romans 9:21).
Firstly, I'm not ignoring some of your earlier posts. You've stated some interesting things. Some I'm pondering, while being a bit busy with some uninteresting necessities of life.
Next, I'm pretty certain from what I'm reading from you, that you and I are in substantial agreement. I have some questions, but mostly to make certain I understand some of the things you're saying. What mostly interests me is what comes from Scripture, and you're of the few here that use it and lay out your thoughts from it. So, please know this is very much appreciated.
Some brief Romans 9 points for your thoughts and anyone else who cares to review this re: what's being discussed:
9:1-6 Paul expresses great sorrow for his fellow Israelites, but knows that not all of them are Israel because
God's word is involved in specifying in advance who would be Israel. He'll explain this, but we're dealing with
God's sovereign will and decrees (and foreknowledge) here, as you've addressed in a few posts.
9:7-9 Not all of Abraham's descendants are God's children, because
God alone has chosen who would be Israel. God alone has promised Israel would descend from Isaac through Abraham and Sarah.
9:10-13
Before they were born, God chose Isaac's son Jacob to be the descendant line from Isaac.
9:14 Some (even some we know) will question if God is unrighteous in
choosing some over others. The answer to this is, Absolutely not! (BTW, this negation is fairly strong language).
9:15 Based upon what Moses said, God has concern/mercy and pity/compassion
on whomever He chooses.
9:16-17 Paul thus concludes that
it's not about human will, nor human effort, but about God who has mercy [on whomever He chooses to have mercy on]. As an example of this Paul uses God & Pharaoh.
God raised Pharaoh up for God's purpose to demonstrate/display/make widely known in all the land God's power.
9:18 Paul thus concludes that
God has mercy on whomever He Himself wills, and
God hardens whomever He Himself wills.
9:19 Based upon all of this, some will question why God still blames/find fault [in people] if no one can resist/oppose
God's intention/purpose (paraphrased - literally "for who has resisted/opposed His intention).
9:20... To those who would ask such a question about God - Paul draws from OT Scripture the Potter and clay analogy:
- On the contrary, who are you to answer back/criticize God!? Does the thing formed say to the one who formed it, Why have you made me like this!?
- The Potter (God) has "authority" over the clay. From the same batch/mixture [of clay], on the one hand God makes vessels/objects for honor/value (see vessels of mercy for glory below), and on the other hand [God makes] vessels/objects for dishonor/no value (see vessels of wrath for destruction below).
- God desired/willed: to demonstrate His wrath and and make known His power, so He patiently carried from place to place "vessels/objects (people) of wrath [He] prepared for the purpose of destruction," and to make known the riches of His glory on vessels/objects (people) of mercy, which He prepared beforehand/in advance [for His goal] for glory
This goes on to talk about God's call, only a remnant of Israel being saved, gentiles,
FAITH, etc.
God's sovereignty/authority, God's choice, God's will, God maintaining His righteousness in everything, God specifying in advance who would be His children and who would not be His children, God specifying before birth one son over another son, etc., etc., etc., is all discussed here.
God does all this and no piece of clay person has any position to criticize Him or ultimately question His righteousness or why He does what He does.
If we cannot see in this
God's absolute sovereign authority to righteously and justly (His R&J, not our thoughts about what's R&J) do what He wills with His creation, then we're making things up to suit our consciences, and desires, and whatever else to see Him as we want Him to be.
Sure, there's more to this, and this is some of the questioning I was asking. Where do we slice and dice (rightly divide the Word of Truth) these things to see how human will interacts with God's will.
It's a fact that God inserts Himself into human history when and where He chooses to guide it where He wills it to go. It's a fact that He places peoples into human history at times and locales He chooses for His purposes (Acts17) (as I asked before, could John the Baptist have chosen to be other than who God placed him here to be - the prophet to announce the King?). It's fact that He forms people for wrath and destruction and people for mercy and glory.
How this takes place with regard to His absolute sovereignty/rulership interacting with human will is fascinating and I'm seeing no in depth explanations in arguments from
some here, just assertions, insertions, and even false argumentative allegations, and criticism for asking questions and seeking answers through exegesis and contemplative prayer and asking siblings' thoughts. From one I'm seeing Scripture and for this I'm grateful.
BTW, as I've stated several times, I understand God's unchangeable righteousness. I'm not one of those discussed in 9:14. I understand the strength of the phrase
mē genoito! at the end of 9:14, because I study the original languages of Scripture, because I value the written Word of God, and thus there are certain things I do not question about God. I know He functions flawlessly within His perfect character. I also know some of us think we know more than we actually know about what He does and doesn't do.
Thanks, Clare, for moving this forward and standing on the sovereign authority of God's Word.