No Lives Matter vs All Lives Matter

[Ken-1122]

Okay, her mother (may have) done the lettering, so what?
Is it your contention that ordinary black citizens cannot formulate and articulate their own thoughts?

Are you "effing" kidding me??? If the mother did the lettering (as you pointed out), if the mother is black (judging from the appearance of the kids) obviously the mother (ordinary black citizen) articulated her own thoughts!

 

[Pommer]

It means exactly what it says. Race is irrelevant. Wealth is irrelevant. All the things we use to divide ourselves into groups is irrelevant. All lives equally matter.

The group that promotes it is pushing black power and a Communist agenda.

Uh-huh.

 

[Pommer]

Are you "effing" kidding me??? If the mother did the lettering (as you pointed out), if the mother is black (judging from the appearance of the kids) obviously the mother (ordinary black citizen) articulated her own thoughts!

I’ll take that as a “no”, then.

 

[Aldebaran]

I’ll take that as a “no”, then.

You took it the opposite way.

 

[renniks]

Their keystone issue is police abuse, who do kill way more people than other police forces in other countries (justified or not). So if "all lives matter" then surely there is a parallel group tackling the same issue without any "communist agenda"?

From a group that killed way more people than the police did last year? Kinda hypocrisy, I think. The police in this country do a fine job overall.

 

[Ken-1122]

What the media has done is brought all the black voices together and they recognize that A LOT of other black folks have had similar experiences as them. It's not that it doesn't happen and like zombies, they see it on the news and react...

I have family members who never had issues, nor know anyone else who had issues with the police, yet as soon as a black man dies at the hand of a white cop a thousand miles away, all of a sudden they want to protest the police department in the city they live in and pretend as if because we are black we should be afraid of the police now. They were never afraid of the cops before Floyd died, but now they are. You gonna tell me this reaction has nothing to do with what they saw on the news? Really?

 

[LockeeDeck]

From a group that killed way more people than the police did last year? Kinda hypocrisy, I think. The police in this country do a fine job overall.

A quick google search shows 19 BLM related deaths and over 1000 police related deaths in 2020. It's hard to tell with police as they tend to not report numbers. Also the BLM related deaths are people who died during the protests, causes of death vary. Either way 1000 is greater than 19 and again that's more in total and proportionality than any other developed nation.

So if "all lives matter" why does no one who says that phrase do anything to show it?

 

[Ken-1122]

Let's get back to the content of the sign rather than who is holding it,

The problem with telling people “black lives matter” is that everybody knows this, so when you go around telling people what they already know; as if they need to be told, it is condescending, and offensive.

We never said -> Only black lives matter

When you start an organization that is based on race, that organization will attract members and supporters who are racist. If a group of white guys started an organization called (for example) “white and proud” that organization will attract white racist; the same happens when black people do this.

For those that defend saying "All lives matter", what do you find objectionable with the content of this sign?

The sign ends with "Black lives are in danger". Last year 9 unarmed black men were killed by the police, while over 7000 blacks were killed by other blacks. If black lives are really in danger as the sign says, from where does this danger come from? Which is being addressed by the Black lives matter organization; the 9 or the 7000?

 

[Ken-1122]

I’ll take that as a “no”, then.

I wasn't asking you a question, I was pointing out the contradiction in the question you asked.

 

[LockeeDeck]

The problem with telling people “black lives matter” is that everybody knows this, so when you go around telling people what they already know; as if they need to be told, it is condescending, and offensive.

They say it because they want action to be done to show that black lives matter.

When you start an organization that is based on race, that organization will attract members and supporters who are racist. If a group of white guys started an organization called (for example) “white and proud” that organization will attract white racist; the same happens when black people do this.

Any group will have bad actors in it, it's what is done about those bad actors is what matters.

The sign ends with "Black lives are in danger". Last year 9 unarmed black men were killed by the police

The police have killed over 1000 people last year with a disproportionate about of them black. Now whether or not any individual case was "justified" is debatable but in that you have to also remember that the police have been caught repeatedly in lying in their reports and planting evidence.

while over 7000 blacks were killed by other blacks. If black lives are really in danger as the sign says, from where does this danger come from? Which is being addressed by the Black lives matter organization; the 9 or the 7000?

Heart disease kill more people than breast cancer, are you saying that nothing should be done about breast cancer because of that?

 

[rambot]

I have family members who never had issues, nor know anyone else who had issues with the police, yet as soon as a black man dies at the hand of a white cop a thousand miles away, all of a sudden they want to protest the police department in the city they live in and pretend as if because we are black we should be afraid of the police now. They were never afraid of the cops before Floyd died, but now they are. You gonna tell me this reaction has nothing to do with what they saw on the news? Really?

What I HAVE been telling you that you are neither acknowledging or addressing is the fact that they are hearing other stories. Floyd is one. There have been many. And there have been many other less than appropriate but maybe not newsworthy I interactions.

 

[rambot]

Good then saying " all lives matter" is legit.

What do you mean "legit"?

 

[renniks]

A quick google search shows 19 BLM related deaths and over 1000 police related deaths in 2020. It's hard to tell with police as they tend to not report numbers. Also the BLM related deaths are people who died during the protests, causes of death vary. Either way 1000 is greater than 19 and again that's more in total and proportionality than any other developed nation.

So if "all lives matter" why does no one who says that phrase do anything to show it?

Why do you assume they don't? Protests are not really a good way to express that sentiment. Feeding the hungry or donating clothes or being kind to your neighbor would be a better way. Maybe even adopting a child.

 

[renniks]

A quick google search shows 19 BLM related deaths and over 1000 police related deaths in 2020. It's hard to tell with police as they tend to not report numbers. Also the BLM related deaths are people who died during the protests, causes of death vary. Either way 1000 is greater than 19 and again that's more in total and proportionality than any other developed nation.

So if "all lives matter" why does no one who says that phrase do anything to show it?

I thought we were talking about unjustified killing of black men. Now you want to expand it to everyone killed? Some people need killing to protect others, you know. Cops killed less " innocent" blacks than died at BLM protests by protesters. Not to mention the billions of loss in property value and hundreds of injured cops.

 

[Aldebaran]

What do you mean "legit"?

It's short for Legitimate.

 

[LockeeDeck]

I thought we were talking about unjustified killing of black men. Now you want to expand it to everyone killed? Some people need killing to protect others, you know. Cops killed less " innocent" blacks than died at BLM protests by protesters. Not to mention the billions of loss in property value and hundreds of injured cops.

Are you saying everyone killed by the cops deserved to die?
Is this how "all lives matter"?

 

[renniks]

Are you saying everyone killed by the cops deserved to die?
Is this how "all lives matter"?

No, but most obviously do. The right to protect oneself and others that are defenseless is the most basic of human Rights. You would have cops stand by and let a Mass shooter do his thing, or should they shoot back? How about if you're being charged with a butcher knife? Do you die or shoot?

 

[LockeeDeck]

No, but most obviously do.

So you judge the vast majority of the people killed by the police as deserving to die? How Christian.

Even though the police have been proven to lie on police reports and plant evidence and celebrate murdering?

The right to protect oneself and others that are defenseless is the most basic of human Rights.

Indeed, if someone broke down your door and yelled police would you wait to see if they really were police or not?

You would have cops stand by and let a Mass shooter do his thing, or should they shoot back?

You do know that cops have zero obligation to do anything to defend anyone right?

In fact the officer that was fired for not doing anything at the Parkland shooting got a payday and his job back.

How about if you're being charged with a butcher knife? Do you die or shoot?

Cops in other countries deal with people with knives too, and they have far fewer kills. It's not required to kill at the slightest potential threat.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The "....matters" battle was a petty and shallow spitting contest highlighting how far identity politics has dragged civil discourse down into the gutters.

"All Lives Matter" was a disingenuous response to the slogan "Black Lives Matter" that was rooted in a semantically overloaded (and somewhat dishonest) set of statements.

Or, another way to put it.

One said claims to be focused on a cause that's aimed at addressing an issue, but lumping in a bunch of unrelated ideologies like "dismantling capitalism" and "dismantling the nuclear family unit and the patriarchy" (and then accusing people of not caring about the former, when they reject the group for the latter)

...and the opposing side responded, not with a well-reasoned argument or highlighting the glaring flaws I mentioned above, but rather with an equally semantically overloaded slogan that's about silly and disingenuous as showing up at a breast cancer 5k run/walk, and telling the runners "now now! we should be trying to fight ALL cancer!"


My response to the BLM movement has been direct and to the point. (both in online debate and in the real world).

I agree with the semantically stated cause, but if their movement wants my support... ditch the commie and postmodernist feminism drivel, and focus on the semantically stated cause.

Supporting the ideals of police accountability and addressing systemic racial inequality shouldn't have to be saddled with opposing capitalism and embracing whims of a gender studies major at Berkeley.

As I've stated before, a group could call themselves "StopSealClubbing", and if one of their side-mission statements is "dismantling capitalism", I won't support them...and I'll be honest about the reason I don't support them. ...however, if I rebuttal their movement by forming a movement called "StopAllAnimalClubbing" (with just as many overloaded undertones), then it would make me no better than the group I was opposing.

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying here...or why you think "All Lives Matter" was a shallow response. It was. It was made, primarily, by people who were concerned their problems were being dismissed politically in favor of the problems another group wanted to address.

Let's be honest...they were right to think this....that's exactly what the BLM crowd's response was. "Yes, we are dismissing your problems because we think our problems are more important right now. We have every right to do so because everyone has the right to protest and bring attention to what issues are important to them."

I agree...the problem is that they don't really ever intend to address any issues that any other group has. Not only that, but slogans like "silence is violence" or calling people "part of the problem" if they don't support your cause

See the issue there? You can't hold the position that...

1. This is a free country and I'm allowed to advocate/protest for whatever I want.

And...

2. You have to support me and my cause or you're part of the problem.

At the very least, holding both positions makes one a self-righteous hypocritical nuisance. At the worst, they're deliberately manipulating and misleading people for bigoted reasons.

 

[Strathos]

You don't know how smart or obtuse I think kids are, so you aren't qualified to judge me that way

You directly stated that the child did not understand the message. What is your proof of that?

Wrong; I have personally addressed the actual message.

Anyone can read the thread and see you didn't.

Were these kids ever taught about the trained Marxists that founded that organization, or what Marxism is all about, and how many people have died as a result of it?

We're not talking about a specific organization, but a movement. The movement to end racist policing practices, and the goals and methods that implies. Attacking the people who coined the slogan is nothing but a poisoning the wall fallacy.

The point is that the ordinary black citizens in this case are the parents, not the kids. Therefore, when someone makes a post that says:


and then posts that picture, the implication is that the kids made the sign and understand what it says. Now that you know that that's not the case, let's try to get back to what was being discussed here, ok?

I never said she made the sign. I said she understands the concept, whereas you don't.

The problem with telling people “black lives matter” is that everybody knows this, so when you go around telling people what they already know; as if they need to be told, it is condescending, and offensive.

Judging by many of the responses to the slogan, it seems many people don't know this, as they make the dishonest assumption that it means 'only black lives matter'.

When you start an organization that is based on race, that organization will attract members and supporters who are racist. If a group of white guys started an organization called (for example) “white and proud” that organization will attract white racist; the same happens when black people do this.

"White Power" and "Black Power" are fundamentally different, because the latter has historically been used as a rallying cry of the oppressed in response to unjust laws, whereas the former has the historical connotation of violent supremacist movements that intended to establish those laws. You have to ignore the entire history of the country if you want to claim that they are in any way equivalent.

Do you understand the difference between punching up and punching down?

The sign ends with "Black lives are in danger". Last year 9 unarmed black men were killed by the police, while over 7000 blacks were killed by other blacks. If black lives are really in danger as the sign says, from where does this danger come from? Which is being addressed by the Black lives matter organization; the 9 or the 7000?

Other things killed a lot more people than COVID-19 did, so by your logic they should have never bothered developing the vaccine.