Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[Freth]

I did read it. But you will need to explain vs. 38 a bit more in light of what you just said:

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

​

Freth:
This isn't about the world, it's about Jesus sowing seeds to His flock, of heaven, not the world.

Jesus:
The field is the world



If she wanted to say that this has primary reference to the whole world, but that tares exist in the church as well, I would completely agree. That is not out of line with the meaning of Jesus' parable. But it was certainly not the point of Jesus' parable.

For instance, I don't have an issue with her using the analogy of the tares metaphorically in her Letter 87, 1896, p. 6 (August 25, 1896, to O. A. Olsen), when she warns against spreading seeds of doubt. It is clearly metaphorical, and she spells out what she means by that.l

The issue here is that she claims that the church is what Jesus was talking about. And to do so she has to redefine what Jesus already clearly said.

The parable was not primarily about the church, and redefining Jesus' words to make it so is quite strange.



This parable is applicable to all humanity because it is a description of the disposition of all the lost and all the saved. Jesus framed it that way, and hence the field was the whole world. His Kingdom is all that will reign, and the wicked will be no more in the world at all.

See my previous response, to pasifika.

 

[pasifika]

Which is why it is pointless to quote Ellen White.

For the non-SDA evaluation process the closest we get is "what does the Bible say a Christian should do when a prophet makes a statement". And that gets to test of a prophet, work of the holy spirit, what does the Bible say about Spiritual Gifts, 1 Cor 14:1-2 , 1 Cor 12 etc.

After that it gets to "test sola scriptura" and for us to discuss it - we need a common reference point which we don't have until the "yes well what exactly does the Bible say" discussion is had in detail.

So maybe Ellen White is a "false prophet"..or can be wrong in interpreting scriptures...one mistake is a big mistake...

 

[Freth]

So maybe Ellen White is a "false prophet"..or can be wrong in interpreting scriptures...one mistake is a big mistake...

What you believe is fine. What I believe is fine too. It's all good.

 

[BobRyan]

So maybe Ellen White is a "false prophet"..or can be wrong in interpreting scriptures...one mistake is a big mistake...

My point is that IF we agreed on what Bible doctrine is - then we could jointly engage in discussions about whether Ellen White's messages from God agree with or contradict the Bible.

But without getting to that point - the best we can do as a start is agree on what the Bible says we are supposed to be doing when someone brings up the claim that so-and-so is a prophet.

So three questions.

1. How does the Bible help us detect the difference between a legitimate "real prophet" and a false one?
2. What does the Bible say we are to do in the case of a real prophet?
3. what does the Bible say about a false prophet.

We can look at that without having any agreement at all on anything Ellen White said.

on page one of this thread - I point out that sola scriptura is the model SDAs use for testing all doctrine.

There might be someone who wants to have a "sola Ellen White's writings" discussion with SDAs but I don't think that can get very far at all without first having the Bible discussion.

 

[Freth]

So maybe Ellen White is a "false prophet"..or can be wrong in interpreting scriptures...one mistake is a big mistake...

I think we largely agree then.

Now the reason I had us go through that is to see a few things.

a. what method you use to interpret
b. whether you would integrate what Ellen White says

Now as to what Ellen White says, she mentions the tares in a great number of places in her books, manuscripts, testimonies, periodical articles, etc. However, Christ's Object Lessons is perhaps the most prominent explanation, being one of her major works, with a chapter dedicated to this parable.

Christ's Object Lessons, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 4: Tares

"Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

Why did Christ not say "the church of Christ in the world" if that was what He meant?

Why would He say the field is the world, if He did not mean it was the world?

Let's look at the complete quote from Ellen:

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God.​

She's not talking to the world, she's talking to the church, applying scripture as an object lesson. Her book is titled, "Christ's Object Lessons". The whole book is about object lessons for the church.

I don't think you can come away from this paragraph, nor the subject matter of the book, and say that Ellen is intentionally misleading her church, nor does it make her a "false prophet".

 

[pasifika]

You are correct, I misspoke. I've amended my post.

Old: This isn't about the world, it's about Jesus sowing seeds to His flock, of heaven, not the world.
New: Ellen's adaptation isn't about the world, it's about the church; Jesus sowing seeds to His flock.

My intention was apparent in my first iteration, as I wrote this: "I believe this is why Ellen put emphasis on it being about the church. I don't think it takes away from the world aspect, I think she was applying it to the church to wake people up to the fact that the church has tares in it as well."

But don't you think it gives the impression that only those who are in Her church (sda) will have those who are saved And those who are lost?

It takes away the main message of the parable...within the world there those who are saved and lost...

 

[Freth]

But don't you think it gives the impression that only those who are in Her church (sda) will have those who are saved And those who are lost?

It takes away the main message of the parable...within the world there those who are saved and lost...

Ellen White is one of the (if not the) most published women in the world. According to wikipedia, she wrote more than 80 books, 200 fliers, and 5000 periodical articles. There are over 60,000 manuscript pages of her writings. Her books are published in 133 languages. All of her work is available free online, for anyone to read. I don't think you can say she meant it just for the SDA church.

 

[pasifika]

What you believe is fine. What I believe is fine too. It's all good.

My point is that IF we agreed on what Bible doctrine is - then we could jointly engage in discussions about whether Ellen White's messages from God agree with or contradict the Bible.

But without getting to that point - the best we can do as a start is agree on what the Bible says we are supposed to be doing when someone brings up the claim that so-and-so is a prophet.

So three questions.

1. How does the Bible help us detect the difference between a legitimate "real prophet" and a false one?
2. What does the Bible say we are to do in the case of a real prophet?
3. what does the Bible say about a false prophet.

We can look at that without having any agreement at all on anything Ellen White said.

on page one of this thread - I point out that sola scriptura is the model SDAs use for testing all doctrine.

There might be someone who wants to have a "sola Ellen White's writings" discussion with SDAs but I don't think that can get very far at all without first having the Bible discussion.

Thanks, God gave Spiritual gifts to those in the church...1Corinthians 12, so if you or I have those gifts we can know if someone speak the Word of God or Not...

So, since EG White is one of your church leaders, then enlighten me with her teachings that made her according to your church someone who speaks the Word of God...

 

[Freth]

Thanks, God gave Spiritual gifts to those in the church...1Corinthians 12, so if you or I have those gifts we can know if someone speak the Word of God or Not...

So, since EG White is one of your church leaders, then enlighten me with her teachings that made her according to your church someone who speaks the Word of God...

I'll do you one better. Eye-witness testimony:

J. N. Loughborough

I will state some facts relative to the visions. The first time I saw Mrs. E. G. White (formerly Miss Harmon) was in October, 1852. On that day I saw her in a vision that lasted over one hour. Since that time I have had the privilege of seeing her in vision about fifty times. I have been present when physicians have examined her while in this state, and I esteem it a pleasure to bear testimony to what I have seen and know. I trust a narration of the facts in the case may not be carelessly cast aside for the random suppositions of those who have never seen her in this condition.

In passing into vision she gives three enrapturing shouts of "Glory!" which echo and re-echo, the second, and especially the third, fainter, but more thrilling than the first, the voice resembling that of one quite a distance from you, and just going out of hearing. For about four or five seconds she seems to drop down like a person in a swoon, or one having lost his strength; she then seems to be instantly filled with superhuman strength, sometimes rising at once to her feet and walking about the room. There are frequent movements of the hands and arms, pointing to the right or left as her head turns. All these movements are made in a most graceful manner. In whatever position the hand or arm may be placed, it is impossible for anyone to move it. Her eyes are always open, but she does not wink; her head is raised, and she is looking upward, not with a vacant stare, but with a pleasant expression, only differing from the normal in that she appears to be looking intently at some distant object. She does not breathe, yet her pulse beats regularly. Her countenance is pleasant, and the color of her face as florid as in her natural state.

Her condition as to breathing, loss of strength, and being made strong as the angel of God touches her, all agree perfectly with the description given by the prophet Daniel of his own experience in vision when he says: "Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." "For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, and said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee; be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my Lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

M. G. Kellogg, M.D.
A description of a vision given in Michigan, May 29, 1853, at a meeting held in Tyrone, Livingston County:

"Sister White was in vision about twenty minutes or half an hour. As she went into vision every one present seemed to feel the power and presence of God, and some of us did indeed feel the Spirit of God resting upon us mightily. We were engaged in prayer and social meeting Sabbath morning at about nine o'clock. Brother White, my father, and Sister White had prayed, and I was praying at the time. There had been no excitement, no demonstrations. We did plead earnestly with God, however, that He would bless the meeting with His presence, and that He would bless the work in Michigan. As Sister White gave that triumphant shout of 'Glory! g-l-o-r-y! g-l-o-r-y!' which you have heard her give so often as she goes into vision, Brother White arose and informed the audience that his wife was in vision. After stating the manner of her visions, and that she did not breathe while in vision, he invited any one who wished to do so to come forward and examine her. Dr. Drummond, a physician, who was also a First-day Adventist preacher, who (before he saw her in vision) had declared her visions to be of mesmeric origin, and that he could give her a vision, stepped forward, and after a thorough examination, turned very pale, and remarked, 'She doesn't breathe!'

"I am quite certain that she did not breathe at that time while in vision, nor in any of several others which she has had when I was present. The coming out of the vision was as marked as her going into it. The first indication we had that the vision was ended, was in her again beginning to breathe. She drew her first breath deep, long, and full, in a manner showing that her lungs had been entirely empty of air. After drawing the first breath, several minutes passed before she drew the second, which filled the lungs precisely as did the first; then a pause of two minutes, and a third inhalation, after which the breathing became natural." Signed, "M. G. Kellogg, M.D., Battle Creek, Mich., Dec. 28, 1890."

F. C. Castle
The following statement is from an individual who witnessed a medical examination of Mrs. White while in vision at Stowe, Vermont, in the summer of 1853. He says:

"A physician was present, and made such examination of her as his wisdom and learning dictated, to find the cause of the manifestation. A lighted candle was held close to her eyes, which were wide open; not a muscle of the eye moved. He then examined her in regard to her pulse, and also in regard to her breathing, and there was no respiration. The result was that he was satisfied that it could not be accounted for on natural or scientific principles." Signed, "F. C. Castle."

D. H. Lamson
The following description relates to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision, in a meeting held in the home of Elder James White, on Monroe Street, Rochester, N.Y., June 26, 1854:

"I was then seventeen years old. It seems to me I can almost hear those thrilling shouts of 'G-l-o-r-y!' which she uttered. Then she sank back to the floor, not falling, but sinking gently, and was supported in the arms of an attendant. Two physicans came in, an old man and a young man. Brother White was anxious that they should examine Sister White closely, which they did. A looking-glass was brought, and one of them held it over her mouth while she talked; but very soon they gave this up, and said, 'She doesn't breathe.' Then they closely examined her sides, as she spoke, to find some evidence of deep breathing, but they did not find it. As they closed this part of the examination, she arose to her feet, still in vision, holding a Bible high up, turning from passage to passage, quoting correctly, although the eyes were looking upward and away from the book.

"She had a view of the seven last plagues. Then she saw the triumph of the saints, and her shouts of triumph I can seem to hear even now. To these facts I freely testify." Signed, "Elder D. H. Lamson, Hillsdale, Mich., Feb. 8, 1893."

Mr. and Mrs. A. F. Fowler
The following statement relates to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale, Mich., in the month of February, 1857.

"We were present when (in February, 1857) Sister E. G. White had a vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale. Dr. Lord made an examination, and said, 'Her heart beats, but there is no breath. There is life, but no action of the lungs; I cannot account for this condition.'" Signed, "A. F. Fowler, Mrs. A. F. Fowler, Hillsdale, Mich., Jan. 1, 1891."

D. T. Bourdeau
"June 28, 1857, I saw Sister Ellen G. White in vision for the first time. I was an unbeliever in the visions; but one circumstance among others that I might mention convinced me that her visions were of God. To satisfy my mind as to whether she breathed or not, I first put my hand on her chest sufficiently long to know that there was no more heaving of the lungs than there would have been had she been a corpse. I then took my hand and placed it over her mouth, pinching her nostrils between my thumb and forefinger, so that it was impossible for her to exhale or inhale air, even if she had desired to do so. I held her thus with my hand about ten minutes, long enough for her to suffocate under ordinary circumstances; she was not in the least affected by this ordeal. Since witnessing this wonderful phenomenon, I have not once been inclined to doubt the divine origin of her visions." Signed, "D. T. Bourdeau, Battle Creek, Mich., Feb. 4, 1891."--The Great Second Advent Movement, by J. N. Loughborough, pp. 204-210.

James White Statement, 1868
"1. She is utterly unconscious of everything transpiring around her, as has been proved by the most rigid tests, but views herself as removed from this world, and in the presence of heavenly beings.

2. She does not breathe. During the entire period of her continuance in vision, which has at different times ranged from fifteen minutes to three hours, there is no breath, as has been repeatedly proved by pressing upon the chest, and by closing the mouth and nostrils.

3. Immediately on entering vision, her muscles become rigid, and joints fixed, so far as any external force can influence them. At the same time her movements and gestures, which are frequent, are free and graceful, and cannot be hindered nor controlled by the strongest person.

4. On coming out of vision, whether in the daytime or a well-lighted room at night, all is total darkness. Her power to distinguish even the most brilliant objects, held within a few inches of the eyes, returns but gradually.

George I. Butler, 1874
For nearly thirty years past these visions have been given with greater or less frequency, and have been witnessed by many, oftentimes by unbelievers as well as those believing them. They generally, but not always, occur in the midst of earnest seasons of religious interest while the Spirit of God is specially present, if those can tell who are in attendance. The time Mrs. White is in this condition has varied from fifteen minutes to one hundred and eighty. During this time the heart and pulse continue to beat, the eyes are always wide open, and seem to be gazing at some far-distant object, and are never fixed on any person or thing in the room. They are always directed upward. They exhibit a pleasant expression. There is no ghastly look or any resemblance of fainting. The brightest light may be suddenly brought near her eyes, or feints made as if to thrust something into the eye, and there is never the slightest wink or change of expression on that account; and it is sometimes hours and even days after she comes out of this condition before she recovers her natural sight. She says it seems to her that she comes back into a dark world, yet her eyesight is in nowise injured by her visions.

"While she is in vision, her breathing entirely ceases. No breath ever escapes her nostrils or lips when in this condition. This has been proved by many witnesses, among them physicians of skill, and themselves unbelievers in the visions, on some occasions being appointed by a public congregation for the purpose. It has been proved many times by tightly holding the nostrils and mouth with the hand, and by putting a looking glass before them so close that any escape of the moisture of the breath would be detected. In this condition she often speaks words and short sentences, yet not the slightest breath escapes. When she goes into this condition, there is no appearance of swooning or faintness, her face retains its natural color, and the blood circulates as usual. Often she loses her strength temporarily and reclines or sits; but at other times she stands up. She moves her arms gracefully, and often her face is lighted up with radiance as though the glory of heaven rested upon her. She is utterly unconscious of everything going on around her while she is in vision, having no knowledge whatever of what is said and done in her presence. A person may pinch her flesh, and do things which would cause great and sudden pain in her ordinary condition, and she will not notice it by the slightest tremor.

"There are none of the disgusting grimaces or contortions which usually attend spiritualist mediums, but calm, dignified, and impressive, her very appearance strikes the beholder with reverence and solemnity. There is nothing fanatical in her appearance. When she comes out of this condition she speaks and writes from time to time what she has seen while in vision; and the supernatural character of these visions is seen even more clearly in what she thus reveals than in her appearance and condition while in vision, for many things have thus been related which it was impossible for her to know in any other way.

"Peculiar circumstances in the lives of individuals, whom she never before had seen in the flesh, and secrets hidden from the nearest acquaintances, have been made known by her when she had no personal knowledge of the parties other than by vision. Often has she been in an audience where she was wholly unacquainted with the individuals composing it, when she would get up and point out person after person whom she never had seen before, in the flesh, and tell them what they had done, and reprove their sins. I might mention many other items of like nature, but space forbids. These things can be proved by any amount of testimony, and we confidently affirm that they are of such a character that they could not be accomplished by deception."--Review and Herald, June 9, 1874.

 

[RBPerry]

I agree many are brothers and sisters in Christ.

I don't think the thread is doing harm if we are trying to wrestle with the meaning of things.

You have been out of the Adventist church for a long time. But do you still have things to work through in that regard, whether doctrinally, relationally with friends and family, etc.? Do you reconsider your decision? Have you come to terms with how people responded?

It is not bad to discuss things with Bob and the other Adventists. But we must be sure to do it in sincerity, and remembering that they are also wanting to do God's will. And if we find we were wrong either before or now, we should still choose to follow God.

Yes I left the Adventist church in 1972. I suppose the issues I have to work through are mainly with family, and old friends. No I never reconsider my decision and it would have been much easier to have remained, at least family wise. As for the rejections, they always hurt when coming from someone you love, but I dealt with that emotionally a long time ago.

You are correct that it isn't wrong to debate things, the problem is how many do we chase off because of lack of a set foundation. Jesus Christ is the foundation, the corner stone. That is why I like Westley so much. There is no question in my heart the Adventist aren't seeking God's will in their lives, as I'm sure you and Bob are as well, I just don't want debates to become stumbling blocks for others.

I know this thread has been followed by many, and I have received an ear full from a few privately.

 

[pasifika]

Ellen White is one of the (if not the) most published women in the world. According to wikipedia, she wrote more than 80 books, 200 fliers, and 5000 periodical articles. There are over 60,000 manuscript pages of her writings. Her books are published in 133 languages. All of her work is available free online, for anyone to read. I don't think you can say she meant it just for the SDA church.

Thanks Freth, I don't really consider anyone to have a message from God to the church apart from those whom the Lord already designated to bring that message to us.. (Prophets &Apostles )..(the only inspired book for us is the Bible )

So it doesn't really matter how many books she wrote...what if it all wrong and Not the truth, then it's your loss..

 

[Freth]

Thanks Freth, I don't really consider anyone to have a message from God to the church apart from those whom the Lord already designated to bring that message to us.. (Prophets &Apostles )..(the only inspired book for us is the Bible )

So it doesn't really matter how many books she wrote...what if it all wrong and Not the truth, then it's your loss..

People ask for proof of God all of the time (I frequent other forums). I'll tell you what I always tell them. It's not up to me to prove God exists to you.

Proof of God is unique to the individual. I can give you all of the evidence in the world that God exists, but it's still you that has to make that leap. If a heart is hardened to proof of God, then no amount of evidence is going to make a difference. Likewise, a person can give me their full evidence that God doesn't exist, but it still doesn't change what I know to be true.

Whether or not Ellen is a prophet is up to the individual to decide, based on their own criteria, their own research, their own heart. Whether or not Ellen is a prophet has no bearing on whether you're saved or not. It makes no difference. God has had prophets throughout history, for specific purposes. I don't believe Ellen's purpose was to convince everyone she is a prophet. Her purpose was to bring God to the world and raise up a church to do the same.

Our beliefs may differ, but we're both Christians.

 

[pasifika]

I'll do you one better. Eye-witness testimony:

J. N. Loughborough

I will state some facts relative to the visions. The first time I saw Mrs. E. G. White (formerly Miss Harmon) was in October, 1852. On that day I saw her in a vision that lasted over one hour. Since that time I have had the privilege of seeing her in vision about fifty times. I have been present when physicians have examined her while in this state, and I esteem it a pleasure to bear testimony to what I have seen and know. I trust a narration of the facts in the case may not be carelessly cast aside for the random suppositions of those who have never seen her in this condition.

In passing into vision she gives three enrapturing shouts of "Glory!" which echo and re-echo, the second, and especially the third, fainter, but more thrilling than the first, the voice resembling that of one quite a distance from you, and just going out of hearing. For about four or five seconds she seems to drop down like a person in a swoon, or one having lost his strength; she then seems to be instantly filled with superhuman strength, sometimes rising at once to her feet and walking about the room. There are frequent movements of the hands and arms, pointing to the right or left as her head turns. All these movements are made in a most graceful manner. In whatever position the hand or arm may be placed, it is impossible for anyone to move it. Her eyes are always open, but she does not wink; her head is raised, and she is looking upward, not with a vacant stare, but with a pleasant expression, only differing from the normal in that she appears to be looking intently at some distant object. She does not breathe, yet her pulse beats regularly. Her countenance is pleasant, and the color of her face as florid as in her natural state.

Her condition as to breathing, loss of strength, and being made strong as the angel of God touches her, all agree perfectly with the description given by the prophet Daniel of his own experience in vision when he says: "Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." "For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, and said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee; be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my Lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

M. G. Kellogg, M.D.
A description of a vision given in Michigan, May 29, 1853, at a meeting held in Tyrone, Livingston County:

"Sister White was in vision about twenty minutes or half an hour. As she went into vision every one present seemed to feel the power and presence of God, and some of us did indeed feel the Spirit of God resting upon us mightily. We were engaged in prayer and social meeting Sabbath morning at about nine o'clock. Brother White, my father, and Sister White had prayed, and I was praying at the time. There had been no excitement, no demonstrations. We did plead earnestly with God, however, that He would bless the meeting with His presence, and that He would bless the work in Michigan. As Sister White gave that triumphant shout of 'Glory! g-l-o-r-y! g-l-o-r-y!' which you have heard her give so often as she goes into vision, Brother White arose and informed the audience that his wife was in vision. After stating the manner of her visions, and that she did not breathe while in vision, he invited any one who wished to do so to come forward and examine her. Dr. Drummond, a physician, who was also a First-day Adventist preacher, who (before he saw her in vision) had declared her visions to be of mesmeric origin, and that he could give her a vision, stepped forward, and after a thorough examination, turned very pale, and remarked, 'She doesn't breathe!'

"I am quite certain that she did not breathe at that time while in vision, nor in any of several others which she has had when I was present. The coming out of the vision was as marked as her going into it. The first indication we had that the vision was ended, was in her again beginning to breathe. She drew her first breath deep, long, and full, in a manner showing that her lungs had been entirely empty of air. After drawing the first breath, several minutes passed before she drew the second, which filled the lungs precisely as did the first; then a pause of two minutes, and a third inhalation, after which the breathing became natural." Signed, "M. G. Kellogg, M.D., Battle Creek, Mich., Dec. 28, 1890."

F. C. Castle
The following statement is from an individual who witnessed a medical examination of Mrs. White while in vision at Stowe, Vermont, in the summer of 1853. He says:

"A physician was present, and made such examination of her as his wisdom and learning dictated, to find the cause of the manifestation. A lighted candle was held close to her eyes, which were wide open; not a muscle of the eye moved. He then examined her in regard to her pulse, and also in regard to her breathing, and there was no respiration. The result was that he was satisfied that it could not be accounted for on natural or scientific principles." Signed, "F. C. Castle."

D. H. Lamson
The following description relates to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision, in a meeting held in the home of Elder James White, on Monroe Street, Rochester, N.Y., June 26, 1854:

"I was then seventeen years old. It seems to me I can almost hear those thrilling shouts of 'G-l-o-r-y!' which she uttered. Then she sank back to the floor, not falling, but sinking gently, and was supported in the arms of an attendant. Two physicans came in, an old man and a young man. Brother White was anxious that they should examine Sister White closely, which they did. A looking-glass was brought, and one of them held it over her mouth while she talked; but very soon they gave this up, and said, 'She doesn't breathe.' Then they closely examined her sides, as she spoke, to find some evidence of deep breathing, but they did not find it. As they closed this part of the examination, she arose to her feet, still in vision, holding a Bible high up, turning from passage to passage, quoting correctly, although the eyes were looking upward and away from the book.

"She had a view of the seven last plagues. Then she saw the triumph of the saints, and her shouts of triumph I can seem to hear even now. To these facts I freely testify." Signed, "Elder D. H. Lamson, Hillsdale, Mich., Feb. 8, 1893."

Mr. and Mrs. A. F. Fowler
The following statement relates to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale, Mich., in the month of February, 1857.

"We were present when (in February, 1857) Sister E. G. White had a vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale. Dr. Lord made an examination, and said, 'Her heart beats, but there is no breath. There is life, but no action of the lungs; I cannot account for this condition.'" Signed, "A. F. Fowler, Mrs. A. F. Fowler, Hillsdale, Mich., Jan. 1, 1891."

D. T. Bourdeau
"June 28, 1857, I saw Sister Ellen G. White in vision for the first time. I was an unbeliever in the visions; but one circumstance among others that I might mention convinced me that her visions were of God. To satisfy my mind as to whether she breathed or not, I first put my hand on her chest sufficiently long to know that there was no more heaving of the lungs than there would have been had she been a corpse. I then took my hand and placed it over her mouth, pinching her nostrils between my thumb and forefinger, so that it was impossible for her to exhale or inhale air, even if she had desired to do so. I held her thus with my hand about ten minutes, long enough for her to suffocate under ordinary circumstances; she was not in the least affected by this ordeal. Since witnessing this wonderful phenomenon, I have not once been inclined to doubt the divine origin of her visions." Signed, "D. T. Bourdeau, Battle Creek, Mich., Feb. 4, 1891."--The Great Second Advent Movement, by J. N. Loughborough, pp. 204-210.

James White Statement, 1868
"1. She is utterly unconscious of everything transpiring around her, as has been proved by the most rigid tests, but views herself as removed from this world, and in the presence of heavenly beings.

2. She does not breathe. During the entire period of her continuance in vision, which has at different times ranged from fifteen minutes to three hours, there is no breath, as has been repeatedly proved by pressing upon the chest, and by closing the mouth and nostrils.

3. Immediately on entering vision, her muscles become rigid, and joints fixed, so far as any external force can influence them. At the same time her movements and gestures, which are frequent, are free and graceful, and cannot be hindered nor controlled by the strongest person.

4. On coming out of vision, whether in the daytime or a well-lighted room at night, all is total darkness. Her power to distinguish even the most brilliant objects, held within a few inches of the eyes, returns but gradually.

George I. Butler, 1874
For nearly thirty years past these visions have been given with greater or less frequency, and have been witnessed by many, oftentimes by unbelievers as well as those believing them. They generally, but not always, occur in the midst of earnest seasons of religious interest while the Spirit of God is specially present, if those can tell who are in attendance. The time Mrs. White is in this condition has varied from fifteen minutes to one hundred and eighty. During this time the heart and pulse continue to beat, the eyes are always wide open, and seem to be gazing at some far-distant object, and are never fixed on any person or thing in the room. They are always directed upward. They exhibit a pleasant expression. There is no ghastly look or any resemblance of fainting. The brightest light may be suddenly brought near her eyes, or feints made as if to thrust something into the eye, and there is never the slightest wink or change of expression on that account; and it is sometimes hours and even days after she comes out of this condition before she recovers her natural sight. She says it seems to her that she comes back into a dark world, yet her eyesight is in nowise injured by her visions.

"While she is in vision, her breathing entirely ceases. No breath ever escapes her nostrils or lips when in this condition. This has been proved by many witnesses, among them physicians of skill, and themselves unbelievers in the visions, on some occasions being appointed by a public congregation for the purpose. It has been proved many times by tightly holding the nostrils and mouth with the hand, and by putting a looking glass before them so close that any escape of the moisture of the breath would be detected. In this condition she often speaks words and short sentences, yet not the slightest breath escapes. When she goes into this condition, there is no appearance of swooning or faintness, her face retains its natural color, and the blood circulates as usual. Often she loses her strength temporarily and reclines or sits; but at other times she stands up. She moves her arms gracefully, and often her face is lighted up with radiance as though the glory of heaven rested upon her. She is utterly unconscious of everything going on around her while she is in vision, having no knowledge whatever of what is said and done in her presence. A person may pinch her flesh, and do things which would cause great and sudden pain in her ordinary condition, and she will not notice it by the slightest tremor.

"There are none of the disgusting grimaces or contortions which usually attend spiritualist mediums, but calm, dignified, and impressive, her very appearance strikes the beholder with reverence and solemnity. There is nothing fanatical in her appearance. When she comes out of this condition she speaks and writes from time to time what she has seen while in vision; and the supernatural character of these visions is seen even more clearly in what she thus reveals than in her appearance and condition while in vision, for many things have thus been related which it was impossible for her to know in any other way.

"Peculiar circumstances in the lives of individuals, whom she never before had seen in the flesh, and secrets hidden from the nearest acquaintances, have been made known by her when she had no personal knowledge of the parties other than by vision. Often has she been in an audience where she was wholly unacquainted with the individuals composing it, when she would get up and point out person after person whom she never had seen before, in the flesh, and tell them what they had done, and reprove their sins. I might mention many other items of like nature, but space forbids. These things can be proved by any amount of testimony, and we confidently affirm that they are of such a character that they could not be accomplished by deception."--Review and Herald, June 9, 1874.

Thanks Bob, it seems those eye witnesses to EG White only described her physical state when she goes into a vision But Not really a message for the church that makes her someone who is chosen to give a divine message....

This is one of my witness, his name is John...."The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants which must soon take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw....

Do you believe what he wrote?

 

[RBPerry]

Ellen White is one of the (if not the) most published women in the world. According to wikipedia, she wrote more than 80 books, 200 fliers, and 5000 periodical articles. There are over 60,000 manuscript pages of her writings. Her books are published in 133 languages. All of her work is available free online, for anyone to read. I don't think you can say she meant it just for the SDA church.

Anyone familiar with the SDA denomination knows of her books, we have many Christian authors today writing books, they just aren't considered prophets. As for her visions and supporting witnesses that is nothing new, the Buddhist have been doing the same thing for centuries seeking enlightenment.

The real issue is were her dreams prophesy? I for one don't believe they were, mainly because she was mistaken in many of her opinions that the Adventist consider prophetic. She never referred to herself as a prophetess but didn't reject other referring to her in that light.

So I'm assuming your support of her is based on how many books she wrote. I have read a great deal of her writings many years ago, not all, but enough to question.

Look at Edward Casey, he came up with remarkable insights while in a deep state of meditation and he only had a sixth grade education, did that make him a prophet? Yes he challenged orthodox beliefs just like Mrs White did.

We now have tremendous circumstantial evidence that the soul does not sleep until the resurrection, want an eye open, study near death experiences.

Do I believe God is still talking to his people, yes I do, most just aren't listening.

 

[tall73]

Yes I left the Adventist church in 1972. I suppose the issues I have to work through are mainly with family, and old friends. No I never reconsider my decision and it would have been much easier to have remained, at least family wise. As for the rejections, they always hurt when coming from someone you love, but I dealt with that emotionally a long time ago.

You are correct that it isn't wrong to debate things, the problem is how many do we chase off because of lack of a set foundation. Jesus Christ is the foundation, the corner stone. That is why I like Westley so much. There is no question in my heart the Adventist aren't seeking God's will in their lives, as I'm sure you and Bob are as well, I just don't want debates to become stumbling blocks for others.

I know this thread has been followed by many, and I have received an ear full from a few privately.

If you think that some who are following your posting in your local circle do not have a foundation in Christ, then yes, this might be counter-productive for some.

On the other hand, I think that ship sailed already. They are apparently watching now. What are the concerns they express?

If they are Adventists it is doubtful they have escaped various issues that are discussed here. If they are not, I think there have been enough assurances that we are not considering people to be outside of Christ by virtue of their denominational affiliation.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks, God gave Spiritual gifts to those in the church...1Corinthians 12, so if you or I have those gifts we can know if someone speak the Word of God or Not...

So, since EG White is one of your church leaders, then enlighten me with her teachings that made her according to your church someone who speaks the Word of God...

Well the first and most important thing is that the messages she gave were in harmony with the doctrine that we find in the Bible.

Secondly - she wrote a very powerful commentary on the life of Christ called "the Desire of Ages" which a great many Christians have read both SDA and non-SDA and found to be a great blessing.

Thirdly - she gave many warnings predictions about events to come regarding the second coming, Millennium and events of Rev 20, 21 etc.

Fourthly - she wrote a lot of direct counsels to the SDA church providing instruction, reproof and correction during her lifetime where those people she wrote to (and wrote about) testified to the accuracy of her insights in their regard.

 

[pasifika]

People ask for proof of God all of the time (I frequent other forums). I'll tell you what I always tell them. It's not up to me to prove God exists to you.

Proof of God is unique to the individual. I can give you all of the evidence in the world that God exists, but it's still you that has to make that leap. If a heart is hardened to proof of God, then no amount of evidence is going to make a difference. Likewise, a person can give me their full evidence that God doesn't exist, but it still doesn't change what I know to be true.

Whether or not Ellen is a prophet is up to the individual to decide, based on their own criteria, their own research, their own heart. Whether or not Ellen is a prophet has no bearing on whether you're saved or not. It makes no difference. God has had prophets throughout history, for specific purposes. I don't believe Ellen's purpose was to convince everyone she is a prophet. Her purpose was to bring God to the world and raise up a church to do the same.

Our beliefs may differ, but we're both Christians.

So according to you, EG White purpose was to bring God to the world and to raise up a church to do the same...

Isn't that is Jesus Christ purpose to the world...(Emmanuel "God is with us") also that He will raise up His church on this earth..

 

[BobRyan]

So according to you, EG White purpose was to bring God to the world and to raise up a church to do the same...

I would never say that. Her purpose was similar to Noah and John the baptizer - they both gave last minute instructions on how to survive an upcoming crisis for God's people. But she also had the purpose of someone issuing warnings and reproofs for those who were tempted to lose focus on the mission.

For example a very famous leader in the Adventist church named "Kellogg" was running a hospital for the Adventist church in Battle Creek - and then he started to drift off into a form of pantheism. She wrote a lot of personal corrections and then when he refused to listen she advised church members that his well disguised teaching had the element of pantheism and should be avoided.

She considered that Christ and the Apostles had already raised up God's church and that it had weathered the storms of the dark ages and is now nearing the safe harbor of the second coming.

 

[pasifika]

Well the first and most important thing is that the messages she gave were in harmony with the doctrine that we find in the Bible.

Secondly - she wrote a very powerful commentary on the life of Christ called "the Desire of Ages" which a great many Christians have read both SDA and non-SDA and found to be a great blessing.

Thirdly - she gave many warnings predictions about events to come regarding the second coming, Millennium and events of Rev 20, 21 etc.

Fourthly - she wrote a lot of direct counsels to the SDA church providing instruction, reproof and correction during her lifetime where those people she wrote to and about testified to the accuracy of her insights in their regard.

What if those who said her teachings are in harmony with scriptures were already followers of her teaching?

Also the Gospel gives us the account of the life of Jesus any additional information is just speculations. ...

All Prophets and Apostles throughout the Bible prophesied regarding to the second coming, Millenium etc they also gives us warning...

 

[pasifika]

I would never say that. Her purpose was similar to Noah and John the baptizer - they both gave last minute instructions on how to survive an upcoming crisis for God's people. But she also had the purpose of someone issuing warnings and reproofs for those who were tempted to lose focus on the mission.

For example a very famous leader in the Adventist church named "Kellogg" was running a hospital for the Adventist church in Battle Creek - and then he started to drift off into a form of pantheism. She wrote a lot of personal corrections and then when he refused to listen she advised church members that his well disguised teaching had the element of pantheism and should be avoided.

She considered that Christ and the Apostles had already raised up God's church and that it had weathered the storms of the dark ages and is now nearing the safe harbor of the second coming.

Sorry Bob, I was replying to @Freth who made the initial statement...