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Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

RBPerry

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I have come to the belief that this thread has done more harm than good. Was the great awakening inspired by the Holy Spirit, or was it a method to divide Christianity? I know the reformation was needed and many good things came out of it, on the other hand the great awakening has done more damage than good at times. God didn't decide to wait 1500 years to deal with the Saturday sabbath, dietary, and all the other issues debated here and elsewhere.
Could it be all our various denominations actually serve a purpose because of the different personalities, personal issues, and attitudes of people.
My personal convictions are that SDA members are fellow Christians and have the same love of Christ as other brothers and sisters in Christ. Remember the basics John 3:16.
 
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Danthemailman

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Isaiah pointed forward to Jesus magnifying the law, not doing away with it:

Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.​

Jesus in Matthew 5, concerning the law.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Old Testament and New Testament agree. Heaven and earth haven't passed.



Verse 31, same chapter:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You left out the important part.

Matthew 7:20-23 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Fruits = Works

There are good fruits (works) and bad fruits (works).

Romans 7:For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Colossians 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God.
You're trying to make a point that "SDA" are wrong, but we're only quoting scripture here. SDA is beside the point.
You can quote scripture all you want, but your eisegesis results in “salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works” and is wrong.
 
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BobRyan

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Nobody said the commandments have been destroyed,

So you did not "downsize them to nine"?

yet the old covenant has been made obsolete by the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:13)

The old covenant is "obey and live" according to Gal3 and Romans 3. under that covenant all mankind is lost. It includes the command to no take God's name in vain Ex 20:7

The new covenant Jer 31:31-34 includes the new birth and is the "one" Gospel covenant Gal 1:6-9 under which all mankind is saved that accept the Gospel, that also includes "do not take God's name in vain" and that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

The dead will be judged according to their works, yet not to determine whether or not they did enough works to earn salvation.

Rom 2:4-16 shows them going to either heaven or hell based on that review of works
Matt 7 - Christ said they go to heaven or hell based on what they did, because what they do "is the FRUIT" that shows if they are born again or not.


"Do His commandments" does not mean that we earn eternal life based on the merits of works - as you point out. The sinner cannot "earn heaven" by not taking God's name in vain.

Really easy concepts but often times bias can keep a person from seeing it.

We are under the new covenant and not the old covenant.

As I said.

Who has perfectly obeyed? None. (Romans 3:23)

No one - that is why all are lost under the old covenant rules according to Rom 3:19-23.

only the saved are under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 as already stated
 
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tall73

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And of course the Matt 24 "one end of the sky to the other" is all the saints of all time all over the world.


Thank you for taking the time to discuss it. Now I have a few questions to see how our views line up. I agree fully with what you said about Matthew 24 here that all the saints of all time will be involved. In doing so we tie in other Scripture such as I Thes. 4, I Corinthians 15, John 5, etc. regarding the resurrection of the dead at the last trumpet call of God.

Do you include in this number those who never set foot in a church, perhaps in lands where they were prevented by persecution, but still had faith and followed the commands of the Lord?

Do you think that in the parable of the tares the tares represent all of those who are not part of God's kingdom, both in and out of the church?
 
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BobRyan

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Was the great awakening inspired by the Holy Spirit, or was it a method to divide Christianity?

Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I know the reformation was needed and many good things came out of it,

on the other hand the great awakening has done more damage than good at times.

Well I don't claim to believe every doctrine that came from every group arising out of the Great Awakening - but it was important.


The Great Awakening refers to a number of periods of religious revival in American Christian history. Historians and theologians identify three, or sometimes four, waves of increased religious enthusiasm between the early 18th century and the late 20th century. Each of these "Great Awakenings" was characterized by widespread revivals led by evangelical Protestant ministers, a sharp increase of interest in religion, a profound sense of conviction and redemption on the part of those affected, an increase in evangelical church membership, and the formation of new religious movements and denominations.
from: Great Awakening

You might want to start a thread on the "Great Awakening"
 
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BobRyan

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Thank you for taking the time to discuss it. Now I have a few questions to see how our views line up. I agree fully with what you said about Matthew 24 here that all the saints of all time will be involved. In doing so we tie in other Scripture such as I Thes. 4, I Corinthians 15, John 5, etc. regarding the resurrection of the dead at the last trumpet call of God.

Do you include in this number those who never set foot in a church, perhaps in lands where they were prevented by persecution, but still had faith and followed the commands of the Lord?

According to Rom 2:13-16 there are gentiles with no access at all to scripture that "do instinctively the things of the law showing the works of the law written on the heart" and at the end of Romans 2 "he is a Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart by the Holy Spirit"

John 12:32 "I will draw all mankind unto Me" which is God as "Evangelist" and the supernatural drawing of all mankind by the Spirit of Truth - that enables all the choice to "Accept" the Gospel that depravity disables.

Do you think that in the parable of the tares the tares represent all of those who are not part of God's kingdom, both in and out of the church?

Tares are those who reject the influence/prompting of the Holy Spirit - no matter where they are and the wheat represents those who accept His work no matter where they are or what sort of group they are in.

A few videos of personal testimonies illustrating this - come to mind - will add here

Super Amazing: two Muslims Convert to Christianity -- must read thread

Atheist has a direct encounter with Christ

Saved from Spiritism - agnostic/atheist converts to Christianity. Great Testimony

These are very gripping - and are all threads on CF
 
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tall73

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Jesus in Matthew 5, concerning the law.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

First, thank you for your testimony regarding your searching after God. I hope we are all searching for what the Lord wants, or there is little point in being here discussing.

As to this quote in Matthew 5, what law do you think He was referencing?

He refers to the commandments regarding murder and adultery. So the ten are certainly included. But his statements regarding the law continue with his "you have heard", "but I say" statements. What law do you think Jesus is indicating when He says that it will not pass away?
 
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BobRyan

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First, thank you for your testimony regarding your searching after God. I hope we are all searching for what the Lord wants, or there is little point in being here discussing.

As to this quote in Matthew 5, what law do you think He was referencing?

He refers to the commandments regarding murder and adultery. So the ten are certainly included. But his statements regarding the law continue with his "you have heard", "but I say" statements. What law do you think Jesus is indicating when He says that it will not pass away?

jumping in to add my two cents since I presume this is a question to SDAs in general about Matt 5

It has to include at least the Ten as you point out.

It is the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34, and includes things like the two great commandments of Matt 22 which are
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
 
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tall73

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According to Rom 2:13-16 there are gentiles with no access at all to scripture that "do instinctively the things of the law showing the works of the law written on the heart" and at the end of Romans 2 "he is a Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart by the Holy Spirit"

John 12:32 "I will draw all mankind unto Me" which is God as "Evangelist" and the supernatural drawing of all mankind by the Spirit of Truth - that enables all the choice to "Accept" the Gospel that depravity disables.



Tares are those who reject the influence/prompting of the Holy Spirit - no matter where they are and the wheat represents those who accept His work

I think we largely agree then.

Now the reason I had us go through that is to see a few things.

a. what method you use to interpret
b. whether you would integrate what Ellen White says

Now as to what Ellen White says, she mentions the tares in a great number of places in her books, manuscripts, testimonies, periodical articles, etc. However, Christ's Object Lessons is perhaps the most prominent explanation, being one of her major works, with a chapter dedicated to this parable.

Christ's Object Lessons, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 4: Tares

"Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

Why did Christ not say "the church of Christ in the world" if that was what He meant?


Why would He say the field is the world, if He did not mean it was the world?
 
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tall73

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jumping in to add my two cents since I presume this is a question to SDAs in general about Matt 5

It has to include at least the Ten as you point out.

It is the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34, and includes things like the two great commandments of Matt 22 which are
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Sure you are welcome to discuss too.

Which ones does He particularly list in that section?
 
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BobRyan

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I think we largely agree then.

Now the reason I had us go through that is to see a few things.

a. what method you use to interpret
b. whether you would integrate what Ellen White says

Now as to what Ellen White says, she mentions the tares in a great number of places in her books, manuscripts, testimonies, periodical articles, etc. However, Christ's Object Lessons is perhaps the most prominent explanation, being one of her major works, with a chapter dedicated to this parable.

Christ's Object Lessons, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 4: Tares

"Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

Why did Christ not say "the church of Christ in the world" if that was what He meant?


Why would He say the field is the world, if He did not mean it was the world?

Ellen White made the statement that there would be saints in heaven that never heard the name of Christ. So "how broad a meaning" she put into terms like "the church of Christ" has to take into account all her statements on that point - the way we would exegete any text.
 
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tall73

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Ellen White made the statement that there would be saints in heaven that never heard the name of Christ. So "how broad a meaning" she put into terms like "the church of Christ" has to take into account all her statements on that point - the way we would exegete any text.

I don't dispute Ellen White's inclusion of them in other passages, or her general understanding that others will be saved.

However, this is something else. Have you read the chapter Bob? She is limiting the scope of the parable to the church, true believers, and non-believers in the church.

How can she change the interpretation Christ gave of the field? How can she change the scope of the lesson of Christ?
 
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BobRyan

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Sure you are welcome to discuss too.

Which ones does He particularly list in that section?

in Matt 5 He selects from some of the last 6 commandments but also adds others like the civil law " Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth." regarding the killing of an infant in the womb -- where he reveals its deeper implication in the realm of the moral individual level of forgiving others. Which would have held true since the days of Adam - it was not an added feature of the character of a saint. It had always been true.

But He does not list things like "do not take God's name in vain" or do not worship false gods. So these are "examples" of the principle He is teaching in Matt 5.
 
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tall73

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in Matt 5 He selects from some of the last 6 commandments but also adds others like the civil law " Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth." regarding the killing of an infant in the womb -- where he reveals its deeper implication in the realm of the moral individual level of forgiving others. Which would have held true since the days of Adam - it was not an added feature of the character of a saint. It had always been true.

But He does not list things like "do not take God's name in vain" or do not worship false gods. So these are "examples" of the principle He is teaching in Matt 5.

Agreed. And as you mentioned, He said the whole law hangs on the two great commandments, correct?

So there are more commandments than just the Ten. We appear to agree on that.

But now you have imposed a different term. I don't completely disagree with it, but it is not spelled out biblically in those terms. You mentioned the moral law.

How do you distinguish what that is? And why do you think other laws are not moral?
 
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BobRyan

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I don't dispute Ellen White's inclusion of them in other passages, or her general understanding that others will be saved.

However, this is something else. Have you read the chapter Bob? She is limiting the scope of the parable to the church, true believers, and non-believers in the church.

How can she change the interpretation Christ gave of the field? How can she change to scope of the lesson of Christ?

I have read it and I think it is helpful to note some specifics about the Tares as you suggest.

1. The tares represent a class who are the fruit or embodiment of error, of false principles. "The enemy that sowed them is the devil." Neither God nor His angels ever sowed a seed that would produce a tare. The tares are always sown by Satan, the enemy of God and man.

2. The Saviour does not point forward to a time when all the tares become wheat. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest, the end of the world. Then the tares are bound in bundles to be burned, and the wheat is gathered into the garner of God. "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Then "the Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Where we see all the saved contrasted with all the lost.
 
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tall73

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I have read it and I think it is helpful to note some specifics about the Tares as you suggest.

1. The tares represent a class who are the fruit or embodiment of error, of false principles. "The enemy that sowed them is the devil." Neither God nor His angels ever sowed a seed that would produce a tare. The tares are always sown by Satan, the enemy of God and man.

That says who sowed, not the scope. She already indicated the scope.

2. The Saviour does not point forward to a time when all the tares become wheat. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest, the end of the world. Then the tares are bound in bundles to be burned, and the wheat is gathered into the garner of God. "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Then "the Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Where we see all the saved contrasted with all the lost.

No, she already limited the scope of what she thinks the field is throughout the chapter. Why would you change the definition in the last paragraph?

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church.

So it is from enmity to Christ that Satan scatters his evil seed among the good grain of the kingdom. The fruit of his sowing he attributes to the Son of God. By bringing into the church those who bear Christ's name while they deny His character, the wicked one causes that God shall be dishonored, the work of salvation misrepresented, and souls imperiled.

Christ's servants are grieved as they see true and false believers mingled in the church. They long to do something to cleanse the church. Like the servants of the householder, they are ready to uproot the tares. But Christ says to them, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest."

Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church, but He has not committed to us the work of judging character and motive.

As the tares have their roots closely intertwined with those of the good grain, so false brethren in the church may be closely linked with true disciples. The real character of these pretended believers is not fully manifested. Were they to be separated from the church, others might be caused to stumble, who but for this would have remained steadfast.

The world has no right to doubt the truth of Christianity because there are unworthy members in the church, nor should Christians become disheartened because of these false brethren. How was it with the early church? Ananias and Sapphira joined themselves to the disciples. Simon Magus was baptized. Demas, who forsook Paul, had been counted a believer. Judas Iscariot was numbered with the apostles. The Redeemer does not want to lose one soul; His experience with Judas is recorded to show His long patience with perverse human nature; and He bids us bear with it as He has borne. He has said that false brethren will be found in the church till the close of time.

Notwithstanding Christ's warning, men have sought to uproot the tares. To punish those who were supposed to be evildoers, the church has had recourse to the civil power.


Not all that is sown in the field is good grain. The fact that men are in the church does not prove them Christians.


The tares closely resembled the wheat while the blades were green; but when the field was white for the harvest, the worthless weeds bore no likeness to the wheat that bowed under the weight of its full, ripe heads. Sinners who make a pretension of piety mingle for a time with the true followers of Christ, and the semblance of Christianity is calculated to deceive many; but in the harvest of the world there will be no likeness between good and evil. Then those who have joined the church, but who have not joined Christ, will be manifest.
 
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tall73

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I have come to the belief that this thread has done more harm than good. Was the great awakening inspired by the Holy Spirit, or was it a method to divide Christianity? I know the reformation was needed and many good things came out of it, on the other hand the great awakening has done more damage than good at times. God didn't decide to wait 1500 years to deal with the Saturday sabbath, dietary, and all the other issues debated here and elsewhere.
Could it be all our various denominations actually serve a purpose because of the different personalities, personal issues, and attitudes of people.
My personal convictions are that SDA members are fellow Christians and have the same love of Christ as other brothers and sisters in Christ. Remember the basics John 3:16.

I agree many are brothers and sisters in Christ.

I don't think the thread is doing harm if we are trying to wrestle with the meaning of things.

You have been out of the Adventist church for a long time. But do you still have things to work through in that regard, whether doctrinally, relationally with friends and family, etc.? Do you reconsider your decision? Have you come to terms with how people responded?

It is not bad to discuss things with Bob and the other Adventists. But we must be sure to do it in sincerity, and remembering that they are also wanting to do God's will. And if we find we were wrong either before or now, we should still choose to follow God.
 
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BobRyan

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But now you have imposed a different term. I don't completely disagree with it, but it is not spelled out biblically in those terms. You mentioned the moral law.

How do you distinguish what that is? And why do you think other laws are not moral?

I am using a term that is found in the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19 (as updated by C.H. Spurgeon) and the Westminster Confession of Faith section 19

So for example -

BobRyan said:
When stating that the Bible Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is part of the moral law of God and is applicable to all mankind I am stating a Bible detail so obvious that all major Christian denominations agree - the TEN are part of the moral law of God written on the heart (see the "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" section 19 and the Catholic Catechism on the TEN Commandments... etc)



And then you proceed to provide some quotes that do NOT show that the Baptist Confession of Faith objects to "The TEN" or that D.L.Moody (also in my list) objected to "the TEN" or that C.H. Spurgeon objected to "The TEN". (all of them in my list")

How "instructive"

======================================
The Baptist Confession of Faith - Section 19 (As refined by C.H. Spurgeon - that maps well to the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19)


19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

notice their logic here --

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well

================

Paul shows that contrast in 1 Cor 7:19

The moral law of God defines what sin is - 1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law" as Paul also points out in Rom 3:19-20. And those two confessions of faith do a pretty job of noticing that there are various forms of Law in section 19 of the respective confession of faith.
 
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tall73

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I am using a term that is found in the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19 (as updated by C.H. Spurgeon) and the Westminster Confession of Faith section 19

a. Where does the Bible use the term moral law? If you had such a verse you wouldn't be quoting the confessions of faith.

Did Jesus speak of only the moral law in Matthew 5?

b.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

This section has a contradiction. It indicates that these "ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties". But they don't classify it in the moral law. And they include these laws with moral duties in the cancelled laws.

How can you have a moral law category that does not include some of the moral laws? This would include the two great commandments as well, and you already stipulated they are not removed. This would include Paul referencing muzzling an ox while treading out the grain, etc. which he then applies to pastoral support. This would eliminate a number of things that should not be eliminated.
 
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