Evolution or Intelligent Design?

[Speedwell]

???Trick? you mean "miracle"?

I suppose that when Aaron worked it it could have been a miracle, but when I saw it it was just was magic trick. Maybe the miracle was that he somehow suddenly new better how to work the trick than Pharaoh's magicians.

 

[AV1611VET]

I suppose that when Aaron worked it it could have been a miracle, but when I saw it it was just was magic trick. Maybe the miracle was that he somehow suddenly new better how to work the trick than Pharaoh's magicians.

Here it is in the context, with emphasis -- you decide.

Exodus 7:8 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

 

[Speedwell]

Here it is in the context, with emphasis -- you decide.

Exodus 7:8 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

Maybe he just had a larger (or hungrier) snake. But there is still no periotic tinkering with the molecular genetics of evolving creatures involved.

 

[Astrid]

Maybe he just had a larger (or hungrier) snake. But there is still no periotic tinkering with the molecular genetics of evolving creatures involved.

And maybe it's a story not to be studied at the
molecular level lest all trace of meaning is lost?

 

[Speedwell]

And maybe it's a story not to be studied at the
molecular level lest all trace of meaning is lost?

Nah, couldn't be. Not the Bible.

 

[dlamberth]

Here it is in the context, with emphasis -- you decide.

Exodus 7:8 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

The story is urban lore.

 

[AV1611VET]

The story is urban lore.

Well, urbana paid for it dearly in the form of ten plagues.

 

[Speedwell]

The story is urban lore.

It's a magic trick. I've seen it done.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's a magic trick. I've seen it done.

Show me.

All I can find is a rope trick.

 

[Frank Robert]

12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

In most versions of the Bible including the Complete Jewish Bible, Exodus 12 reads:

12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

Which raises the problem of fairness to punish Pharaoh if God harden his heart.

 

[driewerf]

God "meddles" with His creation from time to time on an as-needed basis; telling nature to "stand aside."

Examples include parting the Red Sea, the Burning Bush, the Tower of Babel, the Ten Plagues, various weather phenomenon, and this doosey ...

Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

Throw in the sun and moon standing still, and it's enough to make a college graduate believe the Bible speaks of geocentrism.

In the New Testament, we have the Virgin Birth, Death & Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and His ascension into Heaven.

All of these nature-defying acts have a technical term that defies scholarly explanation and scientific scrutiny: "miracles."

stories.

 

[Astrid]

In most versions of the Bible including the Complete Jewish Bible, Exodus 12 reads:


Which raises the problem of fairness to punish Pharaoh if God harden his heart.

Punish Pharoah? It was the Egyptiwn people who had their
firstborn chopped up, soldiers sent to certain death etc.

Cannot be bothered to soften the heart of the mass murderers.

Not that the story is true, but still.

 

[Frank Robert]

Punish Pharoah? It was the Egyptiwn people who had their
firstborn chopped up, soldiers sent to certain death etc.

Cannot be bothered to soften the heart of the mass murderers.

Not that the story is true, but still.

I agree it is just a story, there is no evidence of a mass exodus from Egypt.

 

[Speedwell]

Show me.

All I can find is a rope trick.

Where have you looked? Marrakesh, Morocco would be a good place. Zanzibar would do as well. My understanding of it is that certain snakes fall into a rigid temporary paralysis if you twist their necks in just the right way and vertebrae pop back into alignment if you throw them down just right. For a magician in a long robe, exchanging a stick which has been shown around for a rigid snake concealed in the folds is child's play.

 

[AV1611VET]

Which raises the problem of fairness to punish Pharaoh if God harden his heart.

Ex 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Ex 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Ex 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Ex 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

This is the way it's been explained to me:

Pharaoh hardened his own heart, but at times, he softened up, hoping the Israelites would stay.

God knew they would be eventually wiped out, so He just forced Pharaoh's hand.

 

[AV1611VET]

stories.

Written down for our admonition.

 

[AV1611VET]

I agree it is just a story, there is no evidence of a mass exodus from Egypt.

What would you look for? pop cans strewn about? bags and tents left behind?

You think the Amalekites (elite desert warriors) just stood around and let that go?

I've used this example before:

Suppose I traipse through your back yard and leave pop cans and other stuff behind?

A week later, would they still be there?

 

[AV1611VET]

Where have you looked? Marrakesh, Morocco would be a good place. Zanzibar would do as well. My understanding of it is that certain snakes fall into a rigid temporary paralysis if you twist their necks in just the right way and vertebrae pop back into alignment if you throw them down just right. For a magician in a long robe, exchanging a stick which has been shown around for a rigid snake concealed in the folds is child's play.

Then I submit it wasn't done like God did it.

You're describing a snake to a snake.

Let's see a rod to a snake.

(And do it in a room without any snakes anywhere near you.)

 

[Speedwell]

Then I submit it wasn't done like God did it.

You're describing a snake to a snake.

Let's see a rod to a snake.

(And do it in a room without any snakes anywhere near you.)

It fits the description in the Bible. How do you know exactly what God's involvement was?

 

[AV1611VET]

It fits the description in the Bible.

Um ... no.

How do you know exactly what God's involvement was?

God took the credit for it -- in writing.