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Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

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I was quoting scripture from the Bible. I never once said any of the things you are accusing me of. If you don't like the scripture than I would take it up with our Heavenly Father. I can not take credit for Words that are not mine, but I value them because they were spoken by Jesus.
The words of Jesus have His grace in them. Sin hardens our hearts. A hard heart darkens our minds and sickens us with the disease of blindness and deafness to the deep hidden things of God that He wants to reveal. He would have us turn to Him for healing and for Life. Do this in your heart at all times, praying without ceasing, and fasting, while physically and prayerfully caring for all the poor. Then you'll begin to realize where the Word of God and Holy Spirit are trying to lead you.
 
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You're free to believe as you wish, but Paul who wrote Colossians said:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

So now both God and Paul have contradicted themselves so either they have it wrong or maybe its your understanding of Colossians that is wrong? Considering there is more than one Sabbath in the Bible, the Sabbath Festivals that is all about food and drink which Colossians 2 is referring to and it's not about the weekly Sabbath that is in God's 4th commandment that starts off with REMEMBER (another contradiction if we were supposed to "forget").
What commandments is Paul referring to in the New Testament here under the new covenant? You think it’s the 10 commandments with all the rules, regulations and death penalties still attached under the law of Moses?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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What commandments is Paul referring to in the New Testament here under the new covenant? You think it’s the 10 commandments with all the rules, regulations and death penalties still attached under the law of Moses?
I know, but maybe you can specifically point to which laws God said He writes in our hearts and mind in the New Covenant.
 
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Danthemailman

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I know, but maybe you can specifically point to which laws God said He writes in our hearts and mind in the New Covenant.
Since the old covenant law has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the old covenant to legally put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10) and out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The words of Jesus have His grace in them. Sin hardens our hearts. A hard heart darkens our minds and sickens us with the disease of blindness and deafness to the deep hidden things of God that He wants to reveal. He would have us turn to Him for healing and for Life. Do this in your heart at all times, praying without ceasing, and fasting with caring for all the poor. Then you'll begin to realize where the Word of God and Holy Spirit are trying to lead you.
Yes, we are saved by grace (God's gift) though our faith, but because we are saved, with our changed heart we keep His commandments. The second covenant He writes His laws in our hearts and mind which means our all. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.

Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
 
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I know, but maybe you can specifically point to which laws God said He writes in our hearts and mind in the New Covenant.
If you are Love in the way that God is Love, then you are a law unto yourself. Does Scripture not teach this? Does the Holy Spirit not write Love inside our hearts?
 
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Which begs the question... How is it that a new covenant (agreement) between God and His people negates one iota of the law? Jesus replaced the tabernacle sacrifices, but sin still remains, which is transgression of the law. Repentance is still required. Death is still the wages of sin. And Jesus warns about adding to scripture or taking away from it. He also stated that not a jot nor tittle would pass from the law until all is fulfilled; the work of Jesus is not finished, He is in heaven being our mediator. The commandments of God are clearly still a requirement in the NT.
you answered your own question. the law is not negated, it has not passed away yet we can agree that Jesus has fulfilled and revealed the law in new ways. You say "Jesus replaced" I wouldn't use that word because the law has always pointed to Christ and to me the letter of the law is the substitute waiting for the arrival of Jesus to come. So how can you tell me I devalue law when you yourself say Christ has replaced some? Clearly, you can accept that Christ is the true meaning behind some of the laws and it is better to look to him and no longer those laws so why is it so hard to accept that I see that on a broader level but still value the law? what is your criteria to say what Jesus has fulfilled and what he hasn't?
 
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Yes, we are saved by grace (God's gift) though our faith, but because we are saved, with our changed heart we keep His commandments. The second covenant He writes His laws in our hearts and mind which means our all. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.

Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
And yet Christ broke God's 4th commandment in the eyes of blind hypocrites. He warned us to be very careful with how we see, because it is with the eye of our hearts that we see, and a hard hard sees evil even in the greatest good, even in the miraculous workings of the Holy Spirit.

Strive to receive the gift of poverty of spirit, strive to not sin in your heart, mind, and body. By this means receive the gift of a pure heart. By then you will have stopped judging the very dignitaries whom Christ put in charge of teaching in His Church, for holding worship on Sunday. Til then we are but "blind guides leading the blind" til everybody falls.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I don't know why that game is so fascinating for you as you move the goal posts -- but I will play it "one more time".

So then ... Polycarp

I told you it's not a game. it's about who you view as part of the Church. You are asking Christians to accept you as a fellow Christian, despite calling their creeds man-made traditions and by that you imply the theologians whom represent my own Eastern Orthodox Church were not teaching the one faith in accords with biblical theology.

You are making a big ask and so when i asked if there was one person before the reformation whom you could point to as a Christian it was not an unreasonable question. In reality there are many names you could have mentioned to cement some bond or common appreciation of the Christian past between us. You mentioned Polycarp, but what of Ignatius? Polycarp in his Epistle agreed with everything Ignatius said in his. It becomes slightly difficult for you to recommend Polycarp then because Ignatius said this:

"How, then, shall we be able to live apart from Him, seeing that the prophets were His disciples in the Spirit and expected Him as their Master, and that many who were brought up in the old order have come to the newness of hope? They no longer observe the Jewish Sabbaths, but keep holy the Lord’s day, on which, through Him and through His death, our life arose; and by this mystery—though some deny Him—we have received our faith, and therefore we persevere in the hope of being found to be the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master; and because of this mystery He whom the prophets rightly waited for came and raised them from the dead."

Letter to the Magnesians 9

The problem I see with your reluctance to name some basic names, Athanasius, Augustine, Gregory the Great and many others, is that you probably do not view them as being in continuity with your own Church. For any Eastern Orthodox, Catholic and many Protestants, we do view the Church which came before us as being in continuity with our own today. How could we not? Lest we believe the people of God ceased to exist.

Again, you can tell me you prefer the bible to the words of men. You prefer sola scriptura and etc. This doesn't draw us closer but only furthers the divide between us. Would you then, knowing this willful separation insist that we are all equally orthodox Christians? Even through your paradigm it would appear Christians such as myself, are failing to live in accords to the truth of scripture, as you have repeated again and again in this thread.
 
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Imge, go back in history and tell me what actual day God said was the Sabbath, You can not use the Julian calendar. No there is no contradiction, Paul clearly said the Saturday sabbath wasn't required observance by the gentiles, you can't read it any other way. Now if you are Jewish I guess the Saturday sabbath is an issue, but reality is not even the Jews follow the Mosaic law.
 
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Talking about Sabbath, I do personally enjoy having a spiritual practice of keeping the spirit of the Sabbath, which I follow the historical Jewish Sabbath of Saturday.

One thing about SDA theology that gets me though is that their eschatology is that at some point in the future the apostate church will come into political power and enforce Sunday worship. Anyone who does not worship on Sunday will be jailed and/or killed.

The last 4 years have shown me that many things I thought were impossible and wouldn't ever happen, happened. However with this eschatology I just don't see it...
 
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tall73

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Have you read her books, you must have gone to a different Adventist school than I did. To put it simply we were taught that the SDA church came into existence based on her visions (dreams). She was very much responsible for the Saturday issue, the dietary issues. How to raise our children, that's a good one because she didn't raise hers, she ran around the country preaching. You are correct she came out of the Millerite movement. SDA is just one of the many groups that came out of the "great awakening".

You asked why other denominations read commentaries from their founders. The difference is Calvin and Westley were never considered prophets, Mrs. White was.

@BobRyan @Albion @Ignatius the Kiwi @imge @Danthemailman @Freth

I was a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church most of my life, and a pastor in the Adventist church for ten years. I left due to an inability to reconcile some of the doctrine (the investigative judgment teaching initially).

There is a lot I love about the Adventist church. The average member tends to be quite dedicated. And I think many are walking in Christ. They do have a number of teachings considered heterodox, as has been already discussed.

The majority of members do hold to a view that is mostly in line with Trinitarian thought. Though there are still a minority who are non-Trinitarian, and as Bob mentioned they are non-creedal. His statement that if a creed happens to agree that is fine, but they don't go by it is quite accurate as describing most in the church.

Most Adventists do see a falling away from true doctrine on a number of points rather early on. So even the fathers of the early centuries following Christ they would usually see as wrong on hell, death, etc. In theological training we did read writings of the church fathers. However, there was considerable emphasis on the differences. Many Adventists do no reading regarding the early church.

Bob was correct that they did not draw doctrines from Ellen White's writings, with the possible exception of some of the health message initially being pointed out in vision.

However, Ellen White's visions were used to confirm understandings of Scripture that some had already come to. They do not consider Ellen White part of the Scriptures. However, in practice, if Ellen White comments on a particular Bible text few Adventists will argue against the interpretation given, because they consider her inspired. And she commented on a great many Scriptures.

Regarding ecumenical endeavors, a lot of Adventists engage in ministerial alliances, joint relief efforts, religious liberty endeavors (which they are quite strong on given their experiences in Sabbath workplace discrimination), etc.

And they generally consider that Christians following God to the best of their understanding are still saved. That includes historical figures, reformers, etc. However, that does not mean they have a particularly positive view of other churches.

Most Adventists and Adventist apologists indicate that they see themselves as an extension of the Protestant reformation, and that they feel the Seventh-day Adventist distinctive doctrines are a further calling out of error from what was brought about by Luther, etc. However, by most outside viewers they would be considered restorationist.

As to how they treat those who depart from Adventist understanding, I think Bob knows a bit more than he is letting on. Yes, it varies. However, I have known a lot of former Adventists, and many have had family and friends consider them a heretic and lost.

On the other hand, I was treated quite fairly by the leadership when I departed. And I think they have developed better habits on this over time, as a number of clergy have departed over theological teachings. This is especially true following Desmond Ford raising issues on the Adventist investigative judgment and sanctuary teaching. In Australia and New Zealand this was more pronounced than in the USA.

Overall, I still love a lot about the Adventist church, and didn't want to leave. However, I felt convicted that it would not be right to stay and minister there if I did not agree with their fundamental doctrines. Their doctrinal statement is quite thorough, expounding on a number of points.

The teaching that most relates to this is the view that they consider the movement to be the remnant church of God, and that God calls others to join that movement. So while they may see others as sincere Christians, they see other denominations as essentially babylon, and believers to be called out of them.
 
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BobRyan

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The majority of members do hold to a view that is mostly in line with Trinitarian thought. Though there are still a minority who are non-Trinitarian, and as Bob mentioned they are non-creedal.

Just to clarify - the SDA denomination has its statement of beliefs that affirms the Trinity and those who agree to be baptized and join the church must agree to that belief to be voted into membership. I happen to belong to a local congregation that has a history of a small sub-group suddenly deciding to reject the Trinity doctrine and over the course of time they were disfellowshiped after many tries at getting them to reconsider and accept the Bible texts on this Bible teaching.

However - as you noted the denomination itself is non-creedal in that our basis for accepting or rejecting doctrine is not in measuring a teaching against a creed - but measuring against the bible "sola scriptura".


As to how they treat those who depart from Adventist understanding, I think Bob knows a bit more than he is letting on. Yes, it varies. However, I have known a lot of former Adventists, and many have had family and friends consider them a heretic and lost.

I have family members that are former SDA and I know several members in church that have a similar situation with some family member - but terms like "heretic" are not used by anyone I know as SDA unless it is on a place like CF where that term gets tossed around.

Overall, I still love the Adventist church, and didn't want to leave. However, I felt convicted that it would not be right to stay and minister there if I did not agree with their fundamental doctrines.

Which I also agree with - that is the right thing to do for those that find themselves in that situation. It is always best to be in whatever group where you find full agreement
 
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BobRyan

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One thing about SDA theology that gets me though is that their eschatology is that at some point in the future the apostate church will come into political power and enforce Sunday worship. Anyone who does not worship on Sunday will be jailed and/or killed.

The last 4 years have shown me that many things I thought were impossible and wouldn't ever happen, happened. However with this eschatology I just don't see it...

Thanks for sharing that. The eschatology we have does predict that in the future all Christian churches will unite (as in "cooperate") on the point that America needs federal legislation passed that calls for no work on Sunday similar to Senate Bill 2983 in the year 1888 that ultimately failed to pass at the federal level but is upheld at state levels and has faced first amendment challenges only to be upheld by the Supreme Court saying such no-work laws are not infringing on the first amendment.

(some today are considering it just for the issue of climate change alone if you look in the news).

But the issue that SDAs point to is not merely that such a legislation will not "allow work" on Sunday (which we could easily comply with) but that it will not tolerate worship services - full observance - of the Bible Sabbath on Friday/Saturday. At that point -- it is a "prediction" about what would happen in the future.

Many who are not SDA have predicted that such a prediction as we have had since the 1860's - could never happen under any circumstances.

They often say it can't happen because America is so firmly grounded in the religious liberty of the first amendment that the idea of closing down Christian churches nation wide for any reason - even for what would be viewed as a national emergency or health or civil unrest issue , even if it was just specific to a day of the week - is still unthinkable .

Those who scoffed at such an idea as is predicted in SDA eschatology in the 1860's might view the year 2020 as a wake up call were they alive to see it. (food for thought). And those that think that the 1888 Senate Bill 2983 sort of thing could never have happened might want to read up on it.
 
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@BobRyan @Albion @Ignatius the Kiwi @imge @Danthemailman @Freth

I was a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church most of my life, and a pastor in the Adventist church for ten years. I left due to an inability to reconcile some of the doctrine (the investigative judgment teaching initially).

There is a lot I love about the Adventist church. The average member tends to be quite dedicated. And I think many are walking in Christ. They do have a number of teachings considered heterodox, as has been already discussed.

The majority of members do hold to a view that is mostly in line with Trinitarian thought. Though there are still a minority who are non-Trinitarian, and as Bob mentioned they are non-creedal. His statement that if a creed happens to agree that is fine, but they don't go by it is quite accurate as describing most in the church.

Most Adventists do see a falling away from true doctrine on a number of points rather early on. So even the fathers of the early centuries following Christ they would usually see as wrong on hell, death, etc. In theological training we did read writings of the church fathers. However, there was considerable emphasis on the differences. Many Adventists do no reading regarding the early church.

Bob was correct that they did not draw doctrines from Ellen White's writings, with the possible exception of some of the health message initially being pointed out in vision.

However, Ellen White's visions were used to confirm understandings of Scripture that some had already come to. They do not consider Ellen White part of the Scriptures. However, in practice, if Ellen White comments on a particular Bible text few Adventists will argue against the interpretation given, because they consider her inspired. And she commented on a great many Scriptures.

Regarding ecumenical endeavors, a lot of Adventists engage in ministerial alliances, joint relief efforts, religious liberty endeavors (which they are quite strong on given their experiences in Sabbath workplace discrimination), etc.

And they generally consider that Christians following God to the best of their understanding are still saved. That includes historical figures, reformers, etc. However, that does not mean they have a particularly positive view of other churches.

Most Adventists and Adventist apologists indicate that they see themselves as an extension of the Protestant reformation, and that they feel the Seventh-day Adventist distinctive doctrines are a further calling out of error from what was brought about by Luther, etc. However, by most outside viewers they would be considered restorationist.

As to how they treat those who depart from Adventist understanding, I think Bob knows a bit more than he is letting on. Yes, it varies. However, I have known a lot of former Adventists, and many have had family and friends consider them a heretic and lost.

On the other hand, I was treated quite fairly by the leadership when I departed. And I think they have developed better habits on this over time, as a number of clergy have departed over theological teachings. This is especially true following Desmond Ford raising issues on the Adventist investigative judgment and sanctuary teaching. In Australia and New Zealand this was more pronounced than in the USA.

Overall, I still love a lot about the Adventist church, and didn't want to leave. However, I felt convicted that it would not be right to stay and minister there if I did not agree with their fundamental doctrines. Their doctrinal statement is quite thorough, expounding on a number of points.

The teaching that most relates to this is the view that they consider the movement to be the remnant church of God, and that God calls others to join that movement. So while they may see others as sincere Christians, they see other denominations as essentially babylon, and believers to be called out of them.

Scripture makes it clear that the remnant 1) keep the commandments of God and 2) have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12). This can be any denomination, any people, not just SDA. In my experience in the church, I haven't seen or heard of any official statement that SDA claim to be the only people who make up the remnant. Your experience may differ, of course. I think you can find this in any denomination; a church that thinks they're the one true church denomination. There is the one truth, not the one true church denomination. There is, however, one true church that is not a denomination; the remnant.

SDA have taken it upon themselves to bring forth the gospel as per the Three Angels' Messages (Revelation 14:6-12), because of the significance of the Seal of God being tied to the Sabbath. Commandment keeping is important, as per the definition of the remnant (above), so naturally, we try to get this message to as many people as possible. The fact that many, if not most, denominations seem to be unaware of these simple truths is staggering.

It's not for us to decide who exactly the remnant is. Scripture gives us easy to understand language, so that we can know where we need to be as God's people.

All Christians are called to spread the gospel.
 
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Imge, go back in history and tell me what actual day God said was the Sabbath,

Most Christians will agree that God knows which day is the Sabbath.

Exodus 16:23 "tomorrow is the Sabbath"

Most Christians will agree that Christ is also God the Son

Luke 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.

Most scientists will agree that calculating the position of stars and planets back in time is key to knowing the exact day a solar eclipse took place in history - which also helps to map when an event happened in the past - and this includes knowing what day was the first day of the week 2000 years ago for Christians.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/Numbers/Math/Mathematical_Thinking/calendar_calculations.htm

You can not use the Julian calendar.

you might want to check out those calendar links -- they show that your assumption is not correct when it comes to knowing the exact day of the week 2000 years ago.

Calendars and their History
 
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BobRyan

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I told you it's not a game. it's about who you view as part of the Church. You are asking Christians to accept you as a fellow Christian,

But not because of what I think about Polycarp - so not sure why you are off on that tangent.

I claim we are Christians for the same reason that CF does - because of doctrine when it comes to the Trinity, The Gospel and saved-by-grace-through-faith and acceptance of the Bible as the Word of God .

You are making a big ask and so when i asked if there was one person before the reformation whom you could point to as a Christian it was not an unreasonable question

rejected the reformers I listed when you asked for someone who is a Christian between 1000 AD and 1800 AD.

That alone was already sufficient to refute the complaint you are trying to establish.

. In reality there are many names you could have mentioned to cement some bond or common appreciation of the Christian past

True - and I chose Polycarp in addition to the others mentioned. I could choose more but you did say that you just needed one.


You mentioned Polycarp, but what of Ignatius? ...
Letter to the Magnesians 9

Question for you - how many fraudulent letters ascribed to Ignatius were at first accepted as legit - ??
 
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What commandments is Paul referring to in the New Testament here under the new covenant? You think it’s the 10 commandments with all the rules, regulations and death penalties still attached under the law of Moses?

1. Paul says it is the TEN in Eph 6:1-2 where we find it is that unit of Law where "honor your father and mother" is the first commandment with a promise.

2. Christ quotes from the TEN in Matt 19 when saying that we are to "keep the Commandments" and then is asked "which ones?"

3. leading scholarship in all major Christian denominations today affirm that the TEN are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant - because of texts such as the ones just given.
 
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The words of Jesus have His grace in them. Sin hardens our hearts. A hard heart darkens our minds and sickens us with the disease of blindness and deafness to the deep hidden things of God that He wants to reveal. He would have us turn to Him for healing and for Life.

so say we all
 
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BobRyan

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We study the Word of God always. So how do you dare to presume to know it better than us? You don't, because you don't know Him or see Him as we all should.

falsely accusing others is not a form of "proof" that one's position is correct. It gets down to the Acts 17:11 test of scripture which was applied "across denominations" in that case - in fact "across religions" in a sense.
 
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