Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Christians are in every age from the first century until know. Unless they are atheists or Buddhists etc So long as they accept Christ as Savior they are brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think everyone pretty much agrees with this as well, so it is not just SDAs that view it that way.

Can you name one true Christian from the period I have described?

 

[BobRyan]

3. Can you name one true believer in between the year 100AD and 1800AD. Just one person who embodied a genuine faith in Christ.

All the Protestant reformers

Wycliffe , Tyndale, Luther, Huss and Jerome of Prague, John Wesley, ... (is this a game?)

Did you give up on asking doctrinal questions about what the SDA denomination teaches as doctrine?

Interesting.

 

[Albion]

Naah -- I prefer History.

Well then, let's rely upon history instead of some denomination's education department.

 

[BobRyan]

Well then, let's rely upon history instead of some denomination's education department.

Hey that's a great idea --

Emperor Constantine I Sunday enforcement law of March 7, A.D. 321, reads as follows: “On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed.” (Codex Justinianus 3.12.3, trans. Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, 5th ed. (New York, 1902), 3:380, note 1.)

The Sunday law was officially confirmed by the Roman Papacy. The Council of Laodicea in A.D. 364 decreed, “Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ” (Strand, op. cit., citing Charles J. Hefele, A History of the Councils of the Church, 2 [Edinburgh, 1876] 316).

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

All the Protestant reformers

Wycliffe , Tyndale, Luther, Huss and Jerome of Prague, John Wesley, ... (is this a game?)

Did you give up on asking doctrinal questions about what the SDA denomination teaches as doctrine?

Interesting.

You consider Martin Luther a good example of a Christian? You know how much Catholicism he retained right?

What about before the reformation. Can you name a Christian?

 

[Albion]

You've got this all mixed up. First, Constantine didn't invent Sunday worship. It was already the Christian standard. Second, the decree of the Council of Laodicea didn't determine what was being asked about by our friend some posts back--

Isn't that why we have a 5 day work week? The Sabbath and THe Lord's Day.

This inquiry is about how we got what he have now--the familiar pattern of working 5 days and having two off. The question was not about all the various and different policies that had been in effect for different reasons thousands of years earlier and then went out of use.

 

[Albion]

You consider Martin Luther a good example of a Christian? You know how much Catholicism he retained right?

Good question. Just about everything in historic Christianity that the SDA church rejects is said by her to have been the creation of the Catholic Church, and anybody else who continues such beliefs and practices must, therefore, just be following along in the RCC's errors, false doctrines, etc.

Yet, as we know, Luther was a religious conservative who maintained or continued many Catholic teachings that even Lutherans of later generations rejected.

So how is it that Luther gets named as an example of a person who had a genuine faith in Christ...in view of the Ellen G. White version of church history which the SDA church still agrees with??

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Good question. Just about everything in historic Christianity that the SDA church rejects is said by her to have been the creation of the Catholic Church, and anybody else who continues such beliefs and practices must, therefore, just be following along in the RCC's errors.

Yet, as we know, Luther was a religious conservative who maintained or continued many Catholic teachings that even Lutherans of later generations rejected.

So how is that to be explained in light of Ellen G. White's slanted rendition of church history which the SDA church still agrees with??

Luther was getting there...

I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also.
—MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist, pages 71, 72.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Good question. Just about everything in historic Christianity that the SDA church rejects is said by her to have been the creation of the Catholic Church, and anybody else who continues such beliefs and practices must, therefore, just be following along in the RCC's errors, false doctrines, etc.

Yet, as we know, Luther was a religious conservative who maintained or continued many Catholic teachings that even Lutherans of later generations rejected.

So how is it that Luther gets named as an example of a person who had a genuine faith in Christ...in view of the Ellen G. White version of church history which the SDA church still agrees with??

If the SDA want to take the reformers as a step in the positive direction that's at least some tangible connection between their Church and the historic Church. Though like you said, Luther was in many ways conservative. He rejected utterly the more extreme or radical variants of the Reformation and to this day Lutheranism retains many features which some would call Catholic.

Though the animosity towards Catholicism explains the situation a bit more clearly to me. Why they are unwilling to accept the Creeds and seem to have little engagement with the Church's wider history prior to the reformation, except in a purely polemical fashion.

 

[BobRyan]

You consider Martin Luther a good example of a Christian? You know how much Catholicism he retained right?

Yes - but I never said a Catholic cannot be a Christian.

What about before the reformation. Can you name a Christian?

I named several reformers - it is in the post you quoted..

want to see the tiny sample list "again"??

Wycliffe , Tyndale, Luther, Huss and Jerome of Prague, John Wesley, ... (is this a game?)

 

[BobRyan]

If the SDA want to take the reformers as a step in the positive direction that's at least some tangible connection between their Church and the historic Church.

The SDA denomination was touting the Protestant Reformers for almost half of the 1800's so it is not a recent thing with this denomination.

Why they are unwilling to accept the Creeds .

We accept the Bible and test all doctrine "sola scriptura" -- no short cuts. If a Creed happens to get something right or wrong as compared to the Bible well then so be it.

 

[BobRyan]

So how is it that Luther gets named as an example of a person who had a genuine faith in Christ

And why not - he was Christian.

So how is it that Luther gets named as an example of a person who had a genuine faith in Christ...in view of the Ellen G. White version of church history which the SDA church still agrees with??

Ellen White includes a long section on church history in her book "Great Controversy" extolling a number of reformers including Luther.

But God “left not Himself without witness.” Acts 14:17. Workers were raised up who ably defended the faith once delivered to the saints. History bears record to the fortitude and heroism of these men. Like the apostles, many of them fell at their post, but the building of the temple went steadily forward. The workmen were slain, but the work advanced. The Waldenses, John Wycliffe, Huss and Jerome, Martin Luther and Zwingli, Cranmer, Latimer, and Knox, the Huguenots, John and Charles Wesley, and a host of others brought to the foundation material that will endure throughout eternity. And in later years those who have so nobly endeavored to promote the circulation of God’s word, and those who by their service in heathen lands have prepared the way for the proclamation of the last great message—these also have helped to rear the structure. {AA 598.1}

With his mind stayed upon God, Luther prepared for the struggle before him. He thought upon the plan of his answer, examined passages in his own writings, and drew from the Holy Scriptures suitable proofs to sustain his positions. Then, laying his left hand on the Sacred Volume, which was open before him, he lifted his right hand to heaven and vowed “to remain faithful to the gospel, and freely to confess his faith, even should he seal his testimony with his blood.”—Ibid., b. 7, ch. 8. {GC 157.2}
When he was again ushered into the presence of the Diet, his countenance bore no trace of fear or embarrassment. Calm and peaceful, yet grandly brave and noble, he stood as God’s witness among the great ones of the earth. The imperial officer now demanded his decision as to whether he desired to retract his doctrines. Luther made his answer in a subdued and humble tone, without violence or passion. His demeanor was diffident and respectful; yet he manifested a confidence and joy that surprised the assembly. {GC 158.1}

 

[BobRyan]

You've got this all mixed up. First, Constantine didn't invent Sunday worship. It was already the Christian standard.

We already asked you to provide the NT proof of a regular Sunday worship service and you 'declined' and now you reference it as if you had done something when asked??

Very interesting.

Even the Catholic commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II (The Faith Explained) admits there is no such NT texts calling for that change to Sunday.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

We accept the Bible and test all doctrine "sola scriptura" -- no short cuts. If a Creed happens to get something right or wrong as compared to the Bible well then so be it.

This places you outside of historic orthodox Christianity then. Even Luther and the other magisterial Reformers confessed the Nicene Creed. If you have no connection to the historic Church then...

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Yes - but I never said a Catholic cannot be a Christian.



I named several reformers - it is in the post you quoted..

want to see the tiny sample list "again"??

Wycliffe , Tyndale, Luther, Huss and Jerome of Prague, John Wesley, ... (is this a game?)

Strange names to offer considering how Catholic some of them were. Huss in particular only really differentiated from Catholicism in wanting communion in both kinds. But is there really no one before teh Reformation you could name as a Christian?

Also this isn't a game.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA denomination was touting the Protestant Reformers for almost half of the 1800's so it is not a recent thing with this denomination.

We accept the Bible and test all doctrine "sola scriptura" -- no short cuts. If a Creed happens to get something right or wrong as compared to the Bible well then so be it.

This places you outside of historic orthodox Christianity then. .

Not according to many Christian denominations that also affirm the Protestant "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine.

Orthodox: conforming to what is right or true; established and approved by Christ and the Word of God.
is fine.

But Orthodox: Creedal - is not what we are claiming.

lining up pejoratives is not a skill I doubt in anyone if they put their mind to it - but I see little point in it.

 

[BobRyan]

You consider Martin Luther a good example of a Christian? You know how much Catholicism he retained right?

Yes - but I never said a Catholic cannot be a Christian.

What about before the reformation. Can you name a Christian?

I named several reformers - it is in the post you quoted..

want to see the tiny sample list "again"??

Wycliffe , Tyndale, Luther, Huss and Jerome of Prague, John Wesley, ... (is this a game?)

Strange names to offer considering how Catholic some of them were. Huss in particular

We never claim that Catholics are not Christians.

you seem to lose that point easily

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Yes - but I never said a Catholic cannot be a Christian.



I named several reformers - it is in the post you quoted..

want to see the tiny sample list "again"??

Wycliffe , Tyndale, Luther, Huss and Jerome of Prague, John Wesley, ... (is this a game?)



We never claim that Catholics are not Christians.

you seem to lose that point easily

I'm going to take it you don't view anyone before the reformation and after the Apostles as being authentically Christian then. In which case, as an Eastern Orthodox Christian who believes his Church goes back to the Apostles what sort of recognition of each other do you reckon we can have when you won't even name one of our teachers, Saints or even just a regular layman as an authentic Christian?

 

[BobRyan]

I'm going to take it you don't view anyone before the reformation and after the Apostles as being authentically Christian then.

That would be an odd conclusion - many Christians lived before the Reformers -
And of course the first century saints were SDA in doctrine -

"they searched the scriptures daily to see IF those thing were so" Acts 17:11.

We do not regard Catholics as "not Christian" - you seem to lose that point easily

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That would be an odd conclusion - many Christians lived before the Reformers -
And of course the first century saints were SDA in doctrine -

"they searched the scriptures daily to see IF those thing were so" Acts 17:11.

We do not regard Catholics as "not Christian" - you seem to lose that point easily

Again, one Christian spanning the years 100 AD to the Reformation. Just one.