Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[BobRyan]

The SDA church was founded based on Mrs. White's dreams and you know it.

I actually read SDA history so I know that is not true and I actually walk people that are non-SDA through the set of Bible studies that establish doctrine - and never once makes an appeal to anything Ellen White said.

By your own admission you do not have that level of familiarity with the topic.

Why is she required reading in SDA schools.

Why is Spurgeon, Luther, Wesley, Sproul required reading for their respective denominations? It is not because those denominations claim that the "authority" as in "source" of their doctrine are those famous Christian leaders - it is because they think it is beneficial to the students to know about them and what they taught.

One cannot serious state "This person has a message directly from God for this particular group" and add "so let's be sure to ignore it". That makes no sense.

But no doctrine in the SDA denomination requires "a quote from Ellen White" to establish or test it. Hence no quotes from her in the Bible studies that cover our doctrine and SDAs in the 1800's were very clear that they would only adopt doctrines that they could find in the Bible share with the public "sola scriptura".

How about if we talk about the problematic areas of Mrs. White's teaching. Funny how many SDA seem to want to sperate themselves from her.

You are conflating "I don't like Ellen White" with "what is the source for SDA doctrine".

I do happen to agree that she is a prophet with messages given to her from God - but I am well read enough on SDA doctrine to know that none of them are promoted with any requirement at all to accept Ellen White's authority to establish them. Nor is it historically accurate to say that Ellen White first introduced any of those doctrines to the Adventist church.

In fact it is common to have people join the SDA church based on "doctrine alone" without accepting the prophetic gift of Ellen White until several years after that.

 

[BobRyan]

What a Catholic apologist might say is that when Christ gave the keys to the kingdom to what would become "The Church," he also said

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The Church concluded that this statement gives the church the authority on theological matters. Those theological conclusions would come to be known as "Tradition." Tradition is supposed to be used along with scripture when The Church considers a subject

Changing worship from Saturday to Sunday made it easier to separate themselves from their Jewish neighbors. It became fashionable to blame Jews for "killing" Christ (still is). Even though we worship a Jew and his death and resurrection brought us salvation.

I am of the opinion that yes, the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and they changed it. .

I believe you are correct to say that a Catholic apologist would say "the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and they changed it" via the traditions of the church.

===============================================
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

imge said: ↑
The Sabbath being changed is well-documented and it played a huge factor with the Council of Trent.

Interesting that we find a certain level of agreement between the Catholic sources above and the SDA view on that point.

The Catholic Church's official position on that matter is that the Sabbath was not changed from Saturday to Sunday.

Well that is not entirely correct as we see in the example above.

A bit more detail might help

==== Convert's Catechism =============================

Full text of "The convert's catechism of Catholic doctrine"

3. The Third Commandment.
Q. What is the Third Commandment?
A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
---------------------------50

Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday ?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which
Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

 

[Albion]

In my opinion, it's not what we say, but what we do that matters. Their primary day of worship is Sunday and what they have all quoted it is not from scriptural authority.

That's better. The POV is that Sunday is, as the New Testament (God's word, right?) indicates, the day chosen was to be the principle day of worship, not that the Sabbath has been moved.

The reason that Sabbatarians think otherwise owes in part to some sloppy explanations from individual people or newsmagazines, etc. OR because the 'fine point' we're dealing with here is overlooked in the statements made by better-informed commentators.

If we look, for instance, at those quotes you gave us, many of them make the distinction I'm pointing out, but yet you offered them all as evidence that the church(es) teach that the Sabbath actually was moved.

 

[Albion]

Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday ?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Note the blue wording. What was it that was transferred?

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

 

[BobRyan]

When I was in high school (60s) Monterey Bay Academy we were told not to associate or debate other denominations.

anecdotal stories can be found in every denomination. When we look for what a denomination actually teaches we look at their statements of belief.

I too attended SDA schools - in my case it was all SDA schools until my last two years in college and I was never told anything like what you just said.

But if I had a group of students who were fairly new to the entire subject I might first suggest that they learn what we believe before trying to insert themselves into a debate just so they would reflect the position that we hold as accurately as possible.

Well Bob that is a nice way of calling me a liar.

on the contrary - when I say "anecdotal stories can be found in every denomination" I am specifically opening the door to your annecdotal claim about your own experience at "Monterey Bay Academy".

I simply point out that a great many SDAs did not share your experience - you are free to report whatever you like as it is what you experienced.

One thing is for certain and has been pointed out to you your understanding of the new covenant doesn't line up with most orthodox thinking.

That would be an interesting accusation to support with a fact.

You have a way of avoiding issues or distorting them that I find amazing.

another interesting accusation that could us a fact posted along with it.

I do not challenge your ability to simply accuse - my interest is in facts we can look at.

 

[BobRyan]

Note the blue wording. What was it that was transferred?

I see "substitute" and "Transfer" in your post.

And I see their own explanation of the catechism also uses "changed" as we already saw here.

I believe you are correct to say that a Catholic apologist would say "the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and they changed it" via the traditions of the church.

===============================================
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

I have no problem with "transferred", "substituted" and "Changed" all being used to describe what they did - as they have it in their own documents.

You appear to be saying "yes they transferred the Sabbath obligation from Saturday to Sunday, and yes they Transferred the solemnity of the Sabbath and yes they substituted Sunday for Saturday. Which means no longer making the 7th day holy and sanctifying it - to now making week-day-1 holy and sanctifying it" - "but lets not call that change".

And perhaps you are happy with their own result where they say the command is now "keep holy week day one" but do not want that to be called "change" as they themselves call it in "The Faith Explained"

I guess we all agree - They end up here -- showing explicitly "the change" to the Sabbath commandment.

Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

Which you leave out - but appear to argue that this result is "not a change" to the Sabbath commandment (what they call the Third Commandment).

That is the point where we differ but I am not sure that the reader would see that specific point of difference - from your first claim of "no change".

 

[Albion]

I see "substitute" and "Transfer" in your post.

That's right. And "the solemnity."

But remember that we have this material because YOU posted it, not me, and you must have thought that it shows something official from the RCC making Sunday BE the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

That's right. And "the solemnity."

But remember that we have this material because YOU posted it, not me

I agree 100%

, and you must have thought that it shows something official from the RCC making Sunday BE the Sabbath.

Be "the Sabbath Commandment" -- I agree 100% that is my intent.

hmmm --

BobRyan said: ↑
Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

===============

Is it your claim that when they talk about the Sabbath Commandment - the third commandment they don't think it is the Sabbath commandment? Their own commentary does not agree with your comment.

Full text of "The convert's catechism of Catholic doctrine"

3. The Third Commandment.
Q. What is the Third Commandment?
A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

 

[Albion]

Ah, that too. "sanctify" should have been on the list as well. All of these terms mean something other than "Sabbath was moved."

 

[BobRyan]

That's better. The POV is that Sunday is, as the New Testament (God's word, right?) indicates, the day chosen was to be the principle day of worship, .

Has anyone posted a single fact to support that suggestion about what the NT says on this subject?

 

[BobRyan]

Ah yes. "sanctify" should have been on that list as well. All of these terms mean something other than "Sabbath was moved."

Do they mean something other than "changed"?

Does this

Q. What is the Third Commandment?
A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.


Changed to this

Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

indicate that something changed in your POV with regard to the Sabbath commandment?

If not -- can you see how others would see that as a "change" to the third commandment?

 

[Albion]

Has anyone posted a single fact to support that suggestion about what the NT says on this subject?

That's an old ploy that we've dealt with before and, frankly, I don't know why it's supposed to be so important to get on the record again. We all know the verses. You know them as well as everyone else here.

Let's just stipulate that you don't read them the way most Christians do.

But this isn't relevant to the discussion we were having about moving the Sabbath...or not.

 

[BobRyan]

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

===================


CCC -- Catholic Catechism

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.


2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; 28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

=========


Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath


2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of The Sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish Sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping The Sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108


2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

2190 The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

That's better. The POV is that Sunday is, as the New Testament (God's word, right?) indicates, the day chosen was to be the principle day of worship, .

Has anyone posted a single fact to support that suggestion about what the NT says on this subject?

That's an old ploy that we've dealt with before

That's an old ploy we have dealt with before - it is used to avoid providing a fact when a claim/accusation is made.

The point of discussion is to claim something then show that there is a fact to support it. And then the readers review the full set of facts and come to their own conclusions.

For example here is a fact -

Act 18:4 NT Gospel preaching "every Sabbath" to both gentiles and Jews.

Not a single "Gospel preaching every week-day-1" in all of scripture NT or OT.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's just stipulate that you don't read them the way most Christians do.

we already saw this

I believe you are correct to say that a Catholic apologist would say "the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and they changed it" via the traditions of the church.

===============================================
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

ends like this

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"


=============

Because?? they are SDA? they don't read it like most Christians do? what is the reason?

 

[Albion]

we already saw this

"Saw?" Yes, probably so.

ends like this

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

=============

Because?? they are SDA? they don't read it like most Christians do? what is the reason?

I'd recommend asking a Roman Catholic since it's RC material you are questioning.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Are the Ethiopian Orthodox, who keep the Sabbath and Kosher laws, Orthodox?? That is historic Orthodoxy. The 7th day is still the Sabbath day in Orthodoxy and we do not fast on that day...

The Ethiopian Orthodox are still in communion with the Oriental Orthodox across the world. They do not repudiate their Egyptian brothers/sisters who keep the standard Christian practices, such as foregoing circumcision and foregoing dietary restrictions. SDA seem to do this with regards to other Christians, judging them for not keeping Sabbath or dietary laws.

The Ethiopian Church is a strange exception to a general rule. It perhaps has something to do with Ethiopia's historical claims to the Queen of Sheba or Beta Israel.

 

[BobRyan]

That's better. The POV is that Sunday is, as the New Testament (God's word, right?) indicates, the day chosen was to be the principle day of worship, .

Has anyone posted a single fact to support that suggestion about what the NT says on this subject?

Albion said: ↑
Let's just stipulate that you don't read them the way most Christians do.

we already saw this Catholic statement

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

So then they too agree that nothing in the NT shows a weekly sunday service replacing the biblical Sabbath observance.

And you say that noting this Bible detail only happens if one doesn't "read them the way most Christians do"??

How so??Because?? they are SDA? they don't read it like most Christians do? what is the reason?

"Saw?" Yes, probably so.
I'd recommend asking a Roman Catholic since it's RC material you are questioning.

Actually I think it is pretty accurate in saying there is no NT text supporting your claim - you're the one saying that their view represent an interpretation that does not agree with the majority.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Here are just a few....

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.


Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.
—Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950


A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or Seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians.
—The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.



Here are some that gives a nice endorsement to SDA's...

The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.
—The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

These seem like rather strange proof texts when compared to some actual Orthodox ones. As in from the Orthodox Church, which is what I asked for. Where does the Orthodox Church ever agree with SDA claims about the Sabbath?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I did not say anything about accepting God's messages given to Ellen White and our doctrinal statements do not claim that one must first accept messages given to Ellen White. Rather we teach "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice. In our evangelism outreach we always make the case for doctrine based on the Bible alone. In our published statement of doctrine that is the way we present it both to ourselves and to the public.

If that case cannot be made - then it is not made and would fail. We are not positioned to make our case any other way. Yet as Christianity Today noted in 2015 we are the fastest growing and 5th largest Christian denomination in the world. So apparently the Bible-alone method does work for evangelism.

The problem then being that the only person to really understand the bible in 1900 years was Ellen G White. Why did God not inspire anyone before her to comprehend the meaning of scripture from it alone? Would have saved a lot of historical grief and prevented the Great apostasy.