Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

[Strathos]

And you're trying to muddy the waters by bringing up suicidal people and egotistical jerks. We're not talking about them, we're talking about trans people.

You're dancing around the question so much you're going to exhaust yourself.

 

[Kylie]

You're dancing around the question so much you're going to exhaust yourself.

Your question is irrelevant.

 

[stevevw]

And you're trying to muddy the waters by bringing up suicidal people and egotistical jerks. We're not talking about them, we're talking about trans people.

Who are the egotistical jerks. Not sure what you are talking about. I posted a study done on the long term results of people who had transitioning treatments like surgery and it was found that it was not the solution. It actually increased the suicide rate of trans people. It didnt make them feel better but worse.

Though people feel better initially with treatment because it is the start of matching their body to their mind this can be a honeymoon period. But in the end people are still be left with the mental health problems and this is really what determines their happiness in the long run.

Just a footnote. It seems your critizing people for questioning gender ideology by critizing peoples gender yourself. On the one hand you are saying its wrong to question peoples rights to be the gender they want but then have a go at being male as a gender.

 

[stevevw]

No, I am saying that scientific information can be easily misunderstood, and you are misunderstanding it because you have personal views that drive you towards a certain conclusion. You are biased towards certain conclusions. And since you interpret the science as supporting your conclusions - be it either through your own misunderstanding, or a deliberate deception by others who are feeding you limited information in an effort to distort the truth - you are conclusing the science supports your ideology.

But I am basing this on the very sources that decide the policies and treatments for health services like the British National Health Service, thats like Medicare and the Royal College of General Practitioners. They clearly state that the science is not there and there are unknown risks.

Are you saying they are wrong or there is some special way we should understand this. Its pretty clear the treatment is either safe or its not. What is your solution. Would you send a child to puberty blockers or cross sex hormones. They are the only treatments being pushed at the moment. You see this is what happens when people dont like the answers they get. They claim theres some misunderstanding and everyone else is wrong.

And you get to decide for them what is safe, of course.

Are you saying the child should decide whats safe. I am certainly not the one deciding what safe, I have to rely on the experts like every other medical situation. I am repeating what the professionals said, you know the RCGP, the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ and the NHS. Are they wrong. Its like now that the facts or truth have come out you cannot accept this and your now looking for someone to blame. Like I said you show me, are the medical profesionals wrong. Prove them wrong and then maybe you have a point. But don't go shooting the messenger.

Once again, you think you have the right to make that decision. Or the doctors. Or some administrators sitting in an office. Anyone EXCEPT the trans people who are crying out for something.

So if the suggested treatment is deemed harmful or has unknown risks do you think it is wise as an adult with a duty of care who may know better such as a doctor to give the go ahead. Would you. Why is it such a problem with this topic and yet people listen and accept medial professionals advice and opinion in all other areas.

What I find strange is that you keep saying that others are deciding what the trans person can and cannot do like people are holding them back from something that should be given or allowed. The big problem I see with this situation is that we have not had enough time to determine the best treatment. The current treatment has little research and is not even given approval by the drugs administration authority. So we need more research but people want answers now. It is a horrible delimma. Like I said you tell what should we do.

 

[Kylie]

Who are the egotistical jerks. Not sure what you are talking about. I posted a study done on the long term results of people who had transitioning treatments like surgery and it was found that it was not the solution. It actually increased the suicide rate of trans people. It didnt make them feel better but worse.

If you had been paying attention, you would understand I was responding to a comment by Strathos, not you.

Just a footnote. It seems your critizing people for questioning gender ideology by critizing peoples gender yourself. On the one hand you are saying its wrong to question peoples rights to be the gender they want but then have a go at being male as a gender.

I have never criticised any person's gender. But you apparently just admitted that you have been.

 

[Strathos]

Your question is irrelevant.

It's completely relevant, as you're speaking as if 'treating people the way they want' is somehow a universal good.

 

[Kylie]

It's completely relevant, as you're speaking as if 'treating people the way they want' is somehow a universal good.

Now that's a strawman argument. I never said it was a universal good, did I? All I said was that it was a good thing when it comes to trans people. You are the one who seems to think that if it applies to one group of people it must apply to all.

And yes, treating trans people with respect is a good thing. Using transgender youths' chosen names may lower suicide risk

 

[Strathos]

Now that's a strawman argument. I never said it was a universal good, did I? All I said was that it was a good thing when it comes to trans people. You are the one who seems to think that if it applies to one group of people it must apply to all.

And yes, treating trans people with respect is a good thing. Using transgender youths' chosen names may lower suicide risk

You argument seemed to be that steve was wrong because he was not treating them how they wanted to be treated. So if that's not a universal good in all situations, then why is it wrong in this situation?

 

[Kylie]

You argument seemed to be that steve was wrong because he was not treating them how they wanted to be treated. So if that's not a universal good in all situations, then why is it wrong in this situation?

Again, I never said it was a universal good in all situations. Either you are trying to use an obvious strawman against me, or you need everything spelled out for you in great detail.

 

[stevevw]

If you had been paying attention, you would understand I was responding to a comment by Strathos, not you.

Sorry .

I have never criticised any person's gender. But you apparently just admitted that you have been.

No I am critizing the ideology and not peoples gender. But you are making gender an issue by singling out and stereotyping old 'guys' as a gender.

 

[Kylie]

Sorry .


No I am critizing the ideology and not peoples gender. But you are making gender an issue by singling out and stereotyping old 'guys' as a gender.

I haven't checked, but I'm willing to get the group that comes up with these guidelines is majority make. But please feel free to read a gender neutral term there.

 

[stevevw]

I haven't checked, but I'm willing to get the group that comes up with these guidelines is majority make. But please feel free to read a gender neutral term there.

Like I said the majority of what I have read regarding critizing trans ideology is coming from young females and that would make sense as it is females who are most at risk from this ideology. When males can simply self identify as a women and then according to the ideology become real women in every sense then they have the right to enter female private spaces and dominate their sports. If I was a women I would be concerned and speaking up as well.

That means not only did men dominate women in the past as far as the patriarchy is concerned but now they have a new way to dominate women such as in sports and become better women than women are.

 

[Kylie]

Like I said the majority of what I have read regarding critizing trans ideology is coming from young females and that would make sense as it is females who are most at risk from this ideology. When males can simply self identify as a women and then according to the ideology become real women in every sense then they have the right to enter female private spaces and dominate their sports. If I was a women I would be concerned and speaking up as well.

That means not only did men dominate women in the past as far as the patriarchy is concerned but now they have a new way to dominate women such as in sports and become better women than women are.

So again you are ignoring what the trans people themselves are saying.

Also painting trans women as nothing but men who are pretending to be women so they sneak into the women's toilet to assault women is just offensive. The vast majority of assaults on women are by men who have no need to pretend to be women to do it.

 

[Strathos]

Again, I never said it was a universal good in all situations. Either you are trying to use an obvious strawman against me, or you need everything spelled out for you in great detail.

Your conclusion was that he was wrong because he wasn't treating them how they wanted to be treated, as if that was self-evidently a bad thing.

 

[Kylie]

Your conclusion was that he was wrong because he wasn't treating them how they wanted to be treated, as if that was self-evidently a bad thing.

And I don't get how you conclude that I must believe that this applies in ALL cases.

 

[stevevw]

So again you are ignoring what the trans people themselves are saying.

What are trans people saying. If its that they feel they are the opposite sex, I am definitely hearing them and not denying their right to feel that. But do I have the right to disagree and hold an opposing view that someone feeling like they are a women is not actually being women. Do medical professionals have the right to disagree and express their opinion based on the field in which they are experts in such as biology.

Because you keep saying that when I disagree with the view of a trans person you seem to equate that with 'I am not listening'. Are you saying to prove I am listening that I must go along with trans ideology. I am not sure what you are saying here.

Also painting trans women as nothing but men who are pretending to be women so they sneak into the women's toilet to assault women is just offensive. The vast majority of assaults on women are by men who have no need to pretend to be women to do it.

I never said that. I said that I can uderstand womens concerns about having a male who identifies as a women (who most women think is really a man) entering the their domain so to speak. Taking on the role of a women as a male when women have fought for a long time to get away from males occupying their domain.

But the question needs to be asked are males who identfy as women really women in every sense of the meaning. This is the dispute happening in society. Trans ideology believes a person who identifies as the opposite sex really becomes the opposite sex. Thats because they determine male and female by a subjective feeling. Whereas others say that sex (biology) plays an important part as well and we cannot seperate sex and gender. This is at the root of the conflict we are having.

Here we have 2 opposing views which have consequences. Which view should be imposed. Can both views be applied at the same time. No one is saying we should deny trans views. But these views when applied have repercussions. Peoples views can affect other peoples rights as well.

So how do we get around this dilemma. IMO I think we can accommodate both views but to force an ideology onto society is wrong. Its like if I went around and said I want everyone to mention God is great before they address me because of my subjective beliefs that God is great. We cannot use subjective feelings as the basis of reality and then enforce one groups view of reality on others.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Meanwhile... back at the Vatican...

Pope Francis says priests cannot bless same sex unions, dashing hopes of gay Catholics

In a decree approved by Pope Francis, the Vatican on Monday said that priests cannot bless same-sex unions, describing such relationships as"not ordered to the Creator's plan."

“The blessing of homosexual unions cannot be considered licit,” the church said.

The pronouncement from the Vatican’s doctrinal watchdog carries the weight of a universal ground rule for the Roman Catholic Church — and it delves into one of the most controversial issues inside an institution divided over its stance on sexuality.

Many gay Catholics had been hopeful that Francis would create more openness inside the church, not only by speaking more welcomingly about homosexuality, but by changing church law. In a documentary released last year, the pontiff had called for the creation of civil union laws so that same-sex couples are “legally covered.”

 

[stevevw]

Meanwhile... back at the Vatican...

Pope Francis says priests cannot bless same sex unions, dashing hopes of gay Catholics

In a decree approved by Pope Francis, the Vatican on Monday said that priests cannot bless same-sex unions, describing such relationships as"not ordered to the Creator's plan."

“The blessing of homosexual unions cannot be considered licit,” the church said.

The pronouncement from the Vatican’s doctrinal watchdog carries the weight of a universal ground rule for the Roman Catholic Church — and it delves into one of the most controversial issues inside an institution divided over its stance on sexuality.

Many gay Catholics had been hopeful that Francis would create more openness inside the church, not only by speaking more welcomingly about homosexuality, but by changing church law. In a documentary released last year, the pontiff had called for the creation of civil union laws so that same-sex couples are “legally covered.”

I can't keep up. When was this written as the OP says that he backed same sex civil unions.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I can't keep up. When was this written as the OP says that he backed same sex civil unions.

The Doctrine of Faith released this today.

Francis has called for civil unions -- a legal, government union. But these unions cannot be blessed by the Church.

 

[Speedwell]

I can't keep up. When was this written as the OP says that he backed same sex civil unions.

There is no inconsistency if the Pope does not oppose same-sex civil unions but still denies gays the right to marriage by the church. There is a difference between secular marriage and the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.