Mainstream Christianity is wrong about Matthew 5:27-28 (the famous “lust” passage)

[Neogaia777]

sometimes I just think I need to get over this kick that God is going to withhold things that I'd like from me forever. Even though scripture uses language like there was no sea, and Matthew 22:30.
Because "all things" wouldn't mean "all things" if He was really going to withhold.

He wants to show you "far greater things", etc...

A "sea" that is far greater and very much more superior than the sea you now know, etc... a "cheeseburger" that far surpasses any kind of cheeseburger or food you have ever tasted or now know, etc, or have ever known before, etc... and probably won't make you gain weight, lol... and, if I may be "so bold", etc, a "sex" that is far, far greater and far superior to the sex you now know, etc... also a bond in a relationship, or with people in relationships, or maybe even your current husband or wife or spouse still in a relationship, etc, anyway, a "bond" in and with those, etc, that is far, far greater, and very much more far superior, than even what you ever knew/know now, or ever even fully truly had before, etc...

God wants to show you "far, far greater", and "much much more exceedingly greater", and "very very much more far more superior", "greater things", etc...

And as I said, these things are so great, or will be so very great, that you won't even be able to, "not even able to" mind you, even put any kind of thought into any of the things that ever were, or ever existed before them before, etc....

God wants to show you "far, far greater things", etc...

I hope this encourages you or sees you well...

God Bless!

 

[Saint Steven]

It would probably help to create some distinctions in this conversation. (I agree with the intention of your post and many of the points raised, but I think that you'll need to get more distinctions sorted to make the argument better)

1. Fantasizing about the sex act vs fantasizing about the act with someone in particular.
- People seem to conflate these when they are not really the same thing
- Are wet dreams sinful? This is always an interesting discussion.

2. Nakedness does not equal sex
- We've been brought up to believe that nakedness (seeing someone naked) is essentially the same as having sex - as if seeing someone naked is sinful, and as if body parts or certain parts of the body carry some inherent sinfulness or lustfulness

3. Beauty and desire
- The bible seems to encourage an appreciation of beauty
- "Objectification" is a very modern, vague concept that has some elements of truth to it but needs to be balanced out by some understanding of beauty. To find a woman beautiful and attractive and even sexually desirable is not really the same as "objectifying" them. "Objectifying" however is generally not usually defined in a way that it carries much meaning - it's usually treated as if all of the erotic and any appreciation for human beauty is somehow evil.

4. Pornographic intent
The intent of most pornography is to alter natural desires, which is probably why most people feel guilty about it

A lot of modern porn has other ethical and moral issues too - trafficking, drug use, manipulation etc.

Thanks for your post. And thanks to @Billy93 for this important topic. Billy has been working hard to keep up with the onslaught of comments from those with the standard view on the subject. I read through the whole topic and your post stood out as taking a broader view and introducing some important points. The question about wet dreams really caught my eye.

If you don't mind, I would like to explore the topic a bit with you to give @Billy93 a bit of a break and to bring some balance to this discussion. Everyone is invited to join in of course. Although I am likely to ignore those who bring more of the standard view, since that has already been fully exhausted.

I didn't see any discussion about the near context in Matthew chapter five about adultery. There are some things there to explore. As well as the difficulty posed by that passage and how it relates to the reality of human sexuality, especially for men, but for women too. Curious to hear from females about what the passage in question means to them as women.

A discussion of human sexuality, and the role played by what men see (the visual aspect) is central to understanding the difficulty of the primary text. I need to visit some of the links provided to see what is discussed there. But wanted to get the discussion going here first.

I'll start with the difficulty I see in the near context of the verse in question. I will put aside the definition of the word "lust" (covet) for the moment, even though I think it is a good point.

Jesus begins by speaking about looking at a woman with lust for her. ("a woman"/"her" = specific woman, not generalized) But then in verses 29 and 30 speaks about the right eye and the right hand. (causing sin) What this means in reference to a man looking at a woman is fairly obvious. Seems to be a reference to masturbation. Though, I suppose the right hand aspect might mean to lay hands on her. But that would be actual adultery, not lust/coveting.

Matthew 5:27-30 NASB
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[Dkh587]

Matthew 5:28 (WEB) but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Adultery is intercourse between a man and a woman that is married to another man - if you are desiring to have another man’s wife, then we have indeed committed adultery in our hearts.

think about King David - he saw Bathsheba, and desired her. This was not necessarily a sin at first, because he sent some men to find out who she was - 2 Samuel 11

he found out that she was married to another man, Uriah, yet he still sent messengers to bring her to him, and they both engaged in adultery. They were both guilty.

Once he found out she was married to Uriah, he should have pumped the brakes. He desired another man’s wife in his heart, and proceeded to commit adultery.

 

[dqhall]

In our modern understanding of the word, lust is apparently any and all fantasizing about sex.



Huh? Sorry, I still don’t think you’re understanding my argument. Of course the man in question wanted sex. Where did I ever imply he didn’t?



I think it meant exactly what the Scripture says it meant, which is that Christ was referring to the same concept as the 10th commandment. Which is more than just fantasizing.



Oh, I don’t disagree there; in fact I would argue that a man who actively fantasizes about a married woman (if she is someone he knows) is being very foolish.



Not sure I quite follow the logic here. Anything that would involve a sexual harassment or stalking complaint is far beyond what I would call lust/fantasizing… Why would an unmarried woman know that a guy imagined her for a few minutes one night? Makes no sense.



How does imagining sex for a few minutes out of a day (maybe even only out of every few days or a week) “set a man’s mind on a path that might do damage”? We spend far more time thinking about/doing other activities throughout our day, but people by and large seem more concerned with a few minutes of sexual thoughts. I don’t get it.



This is like the difference between having a single beer once a day/once a week, and being an alcoholic. Just because some people are alcoholics, doesn’t mean that no one should ever be allowed to drink. By the same token, obviously if someone is being led to commit (or even hope to commit) actual sexual acts, then that is a problem. But just because some people are like that, doesn’t mean all are. I fantasized for years without even touching a woman, and I’ve had relationships with women who were so conservative that they didn’t even want to kiss before the wedding day. I had no problem respecting their boundaries. If anything, the fantasizing probably helped out. Not everyone is the same/struggles with the same things. One person sees a beer and knows he can handle it; another sees it and knows he’ll be blackout-drunk a few hours later if he so much as starts to take a sip.

Imagining having sex with a woman, then imagining she would give her permission is not the same as raping her. One can not be arrested for perverted thoughts unless the obsession drives one to a measurable offense. It is the lustful desire that either lessens or intensifies. One might falsely imagine a woman is attracted. This might be tested by asking her questions, before fantasy planning a wedding location. Like the philosopher said, “To thine own self be true.”

 

[Jamdoc]

He wants to show you "far greater things", etc...

A "sea" that is far greater and very much more superior than the sea you now know, etc... a "cheeseburger" that far surpasses any kind of cheeseburger or food you have ever tasted or now know, etc, or have ever known before, etc... and probably won't make you gain weight, lol... and, if I may be "so bold", etc, a "sex" that is far, far greater and far superior to the sex you now know, etc... also a bond in a relationship, or with people in relationships, or maybe even your current husband or wife or spouse still in a relationship, etc, anyway, a "bond" in and with those, etc, that is far, far greater, and very much more far superior, than even what you ever knew/know now, or ever even fully truly had before, etc...

God wants to show you "far, far greater", and "much much more exceedingly greater", and "very very much more far more superior", "greater things", etc...

And as I said, these things are so great, or will be so very great, that you won't even be able to, "not even able to" mind you, even put any kind of thought into any of the things that ever were, or ever existed before them before, etc....

God wants to show you "far, far greater things", etc...

I hope this encourages you or sees you well...

God Bless!

Most Christians when they try to encourage on this thing..
it's usually along the lines of "there's just so much glory you won't care about anything else" but glory doesn't really appeal to me and was never the reason I sought God in the first place. God's character appeals to me not "glory".. that and while well intentioned, the way it comes across is.. like they're seeing things in all quantitative.. and also like they're junkies. Like they see everything as a dopamine fix and being in the presence of God is the biggest dopamine fix so they're single minded about getting that fix and ignoring everything else.

I don't see things that way. I see things qualitatively rather than quantitatively. I want to be in personal face to face relationship with my creator and my father, but that doesn't rule out my enjoyment of things like cheeseburgers, oceans, stars, puppies, babies, chocolate, etc because those things are qualitatively different. Plus I'm not looking for a high. I'm looking to live life abundantly, that is the promise of Jesus. I want to do things in fellowship with Jesus, not just stare at Him or fall on my face apparently with eyes rolling back in the head unable to do anything else cause so overwhelmed. That sounds like junkie heaven more than living life abundantly.

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus was trying to make the point (I think) with the examples of both murder and adultery, that sin starts both in and with the mind and heart, etc, or with thoughts and feelings, or feelings and thoughts, etc...

Sure, "technically, not actually true sin until they are actually acted upon or are committed or done", etc, "technically", etc, but I think He was trying to more make the point that the "war against sin" was to be first waged or fought there, in the mind and heart there, etc, lest it actually conceive and give birth to actual sin, etc, and that it must be either entertained and/or encouraged, or else put down and/or shot down there first, etc, beginning in and with the mind and heart, or thoughts, and/or wills (or desires), and/or feelings and/or emotions, etc...

And I think those who are trying to get off on a "technicality" in this sense, etc, are some of the worst kind, etc, and are some of the absolutely most offensive and most wicked to me, etc, or at least breed that kind, etc, and I'm absolutely sure that God 100% completely agrees with me here, etc...

You spit on what He was trying to teach you here, etc...

Anyway...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Most Christians when they try to encourage on this thing..
it's usually along the lines of "there's just so much glory you won't care about anything else" but glory doesn't really appeal to me and was never the reason I sought God in the first place. God's character appeals to me not "glory".. that and while well intentioned, the way it comes across is.. like they're seeing things in all quantitative.. and also like they're junkies. Like they see everything as a dopamine fix and being in the presence of God is the biggest dopamine fix so they're single minded about getting that fix and ignoring everything else.

I don't see things that way. I see things qualitatively rather than quantitatively. I want to be in personal face to face relationship with my creator and my father, but that doesn't rule out my enjoyment of things like cheeseburgers, oceans, stars, puppies, babies, chocolate, etc because those things are qualitatively different. Plus I'm not looking for a high. I'm looking to live life abundantly, that is the promise of Jesus. I want to do things in fellowship with Jesus, not just stare at Him or fall on my face apparently with eyes rolling back in the head unable to do anything else cause so overwhelmed. That sounds like junkie heaven more than living life abundantly.

Strange response, considering what I just said to you, etc...?

But, anyway, I'm not talking about glory or dopamine fixes, I'm talking about joy and beauty that just cannot even ever compare here, etc, and a warming of your heart and soul, and a clearing away of your conscience, and consciousness, etc, that just cannot ever compare here, etc...

That, "that", will be so great that it will make you "forget", etc...

But, hey, hang onto this world if you want to I guess, for me personally, I'm waiting for the world that will be way beyond words, and way beyond mere compare, etc...

Peace,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Strange response, considering what I just said to you, etc...?

But, anyway, I'm not talking about glory or dopamine fixes, I'm talking about joy and beauty that just cannot even ever compare here, etc, and a warming of your heart and soul, and a clearing away of your conscience, and consciousness, etc, that just cannot ever compare here, etc...

That, "that", will be so great that it will make you "forget", etc...

But, hey, hang onto this world if you want to I guess, for me personally, I'm waiting for the world that will be way beyond words, and way beyond mere compare, etc...

Peace,

God Bless!

@Jamdoc

Oh, and the peace and rest (and I'm not talking about sleep, etc) will also be very much "beyond compare", etc, which is another thing I am greatly looking forward to as well, etc...

Anyway...

God Bless!

 

[Saint Steven]

We weren't talking about a women who doesn't exist though. Maybe with someone else you were but you did not mention that to me and I have not been reading much of the thread. So my point of view is based on you seeing a women, a real women, and you having a whole detailed fantasy going on about her.

It's so wrong, on so many levels.

If you think maybe I am a bit cranky, well that's because I am women so I am viewing this from our point of view and let me tell you this makes us feel dishonored and objectified. I'm not young but I have a daughter who is and I know she would not like it either. She has quite enough trouble from young men online hitting on her even after they know she has a boyfriend.
If you ever get married and have a daughter you will understand. In fact if you think some man is doing that to your daughter don't be surprised if you feel extremely angry.

Now no one is saying it's easy to do the right thing, and women should not be wearing things cut down to there and up to there either-that part is on them. A Christian women should dress modestly, but that doesn't mean a burlap sack.

Porn is a very dangerous addiction leading to the gates of hell. It fuels lust and seeing women as objects rather than as human beings with feelings. Whatever you do, don't look at porn. It's a slippery slope that has ruined marriages because porn watching addiction doesn't just fade away on getting married, which is something a lot of people tell themselves, that they will get married and stop watching -doesn't work like that. Take a look around CF for posts on it. One man said he couldn't stop comparing his wife to those other women. It gets stuck in your head, I've read enough posts on CF to see that. Cartoon porn is just a smaller temptation leading to the same dangerous path.
I'm an anti smoker but I think porn is far more dangerous than cigarettes.

I appreciate your POV on this and am glad to see a few women joining the discussion. The female perspective on this is important. Could you respond to the primary text? (see below) What does it mean to you as a woman and a mother?

Matthew 5:27-30 NASB
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[Saint Steven]

I appreciate your POV on this and am glad to see a few women joining the discussion. The female perspective on this is important. Could you respond to the primary text? (see below) What does it mean to you as a woman and a mother?

Matthew 5:27-30 NASB
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

@Kettriken please see post #189 -- I would invite you to respond as well. Thanks.

 

[renniks]

It does make sense, though. And by “actual lusting” do you mean fantasizing, or coveting? And it seems like you don’t understand that there are different kinds/levels of “desire”; most times when a guy fantasizes he just wants a visual aid for a few minutes - it’s not that he is actually thinking “I actually would like to have sexual relations with this person if given the chance.” I can imagine flying a plane in my mind (used to want to be a pilot when I was younger), but that doesn’t mean I’d actually want to fly one (I’d be much too afraid these days). I can imagine riding a scary ride at a theme park, but that doesn’t mean I’d actually get on the ride if a friend asked me to. It’s the exact same thing. Maybe your mind works differently, idk. But no, imagining in my mind for a few minutes does not mean I actually would go commit acts with that person…

Doesn't matter if I'm too cowardly to actually go through with it or not. If I imagined doing the horizontal bop with my neighbor's wife, I desired to do so.
And it's the same thing as porn, except in that case, you never would have the opportunity, because shes just some body on the net. But you still desired and coveted her for your pleasure. Just repent and move on. Justifying it will only make you heart sick.

 

[Saint Steven]

Doesn't matter if I'm too cowardly to actually go through with it or not. If I imagined doing the horizontal bop with my neighbor's wife, I desired to do so.
And it's the same thing as porn, except in that case, you never would have the opportunity, because shes just some body on the net. But you still desired and coveted her for your pleasure. Just repent and move on. Justifying it will only make you heart sick.

Good post. Thanks.

I think this is where the OP goes off the rails. Fantasizing about having intercourse with a woman. In my mind, that crosses the line.

Another thing entirely to notice that a woman is attractive to you and to appreciate that about her. And in the right situation (if you are both single and interested), to initiate a relationship that would mature to a physical expression of your love for each other. Avoiding premarital sex, of course.

To see an attractive woman and fast-forward mentally to an act that is only appropriate in a mature relationship seems wrong to me. But is that a cultural or spiritual conclusion? Perhaps that is the question here.

What did the key text mean when, and to whom, Jesus was speaking?

Matthew 5:27-30 NASB
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Obviously this is correct. But you are operating under the assumption that something is a sin.

Usually a Christian has to use the context to support their conclusion on what a word means. It's pretty clear by the text that it is referring to sexual fantasy in general. Jesus says to cut off your hand (metaphorically speaking). This implies that a guy is playing with himself by fantasizing with a woman. There is nothing in the context suggesting that the guy has to make plans to want to seduce an actual woman. That is your addition to the text that does not exist.

A few minutes of imagining sex is an “adulterous thought”?

It says it in Matthew 5:28-30, and 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14.
Any sin like theft, murder, idolatry etc. that is fantasized about is just as equally condemning in God's eyes because Jesus says that evil thoughts come out of a man and they defile him. A good man brings forth good treasure out of his heart, and an evil man brings forth that which is evil out of himself.

Where does the Bible say that? First off, wouldn’t the thought have to be about a married individual (or for the thinker to be married) to be adulterous,

It sounds like you are trying to explain away Matthew 5:28-30 because you don't like what it says. While Jesus is talking about adultery, this same concept would also apply to fornication, as well.
For if you can commit adultery in the mind, then you can obviously commit fornication in the mind.
1 John 3:15 says you can be condemned for the mind sin of hate and it is the equivalent of murder in John's eyes.

since the Bible clearly defines adultery? Secondly, wouldn’t the thought have to qualify as 10th commandment covetousness to be sinful?

There are no Ten Commandments anymore. The 613 laws as a whole or contract has ended. The 613 Laws of Moses was given to Israel and not the church. Yes, some of these laws have been repeated or carried over into the New Covenant established by Jesus and His followers, but we do not look to the Old Law in order to obey God but we look to the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (See: John 1:17).

But again, you are operating under the assumption that it is a sin.

And your operating under the assumption that is not a sin when it clearly is. Are you willing to risk your own soul on the issue if you are wrong? I personally would rather play it safe than be wrong.

Yes. And we do deny ourselves, by staying away from fornication, extramarital sex, homosexual acts, and any other number of actual sexual sins the Bible lists. The world practices these sins daily; we are not supposed to.

Jesus says you will know them by their fruits. Can you really say that having sexual fantasies about other people that are unwanted are not harmful? Your belief here appears to be in support that watching porn would be okay. Is that what you are suggesting?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 1:8
They're deceiving themselves.

Well, then you have a contradiction when you read 1 John 2:4 if you take the popular candy coated Christianity “sin and still be saved” interpretation on 1 John 1:8.

In reality, 1 John 1:8 is condemning the false gnostic belief that says sin is an illusion or it does not exist. See 1 John 2:26.

 

[atpollard]

So how exactly is me imagining women who either don’t even exist, or who I don’t know/live nowhere near and thus could never be tempted to commit acts with - how is that getting anywhere close to the sin of covetousness?

James 1:14-15

ἐπιθυμία epithymía, ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah; from G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden):—concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

• [Mar 4:19 NASB95] 19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
  
• [Rom 1:24 NASB95] 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
• [Rom 6:12 NASB95] 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
• [Rom 7:8 NASB95] 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin [is] dead
• [Rom 13:14 NASB95] 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to [its] lusts.
  
• [Gal 5:16, 24 NASB95] 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. ... 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
  
• [Eph 2:3 NASB95] 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
  
• [Eph 4:22 NASB95] 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
• [Col 3:5 NASB95] 5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
  
• [1Th 4:5 NASB95] 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
• [1Ti 6:9 NASB95] 9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.
  
• [2Ti 2:22 NASB95] 22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love [and] peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
  
• [Tit 2:12 NASB95] 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
• [Tit 3:3 NASB95] 3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
  
• [Jas 1:14-15 NASB95] 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
  
• [1Pe 1:14 NASB95] 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts [which were yours] in your ignorance,
• [1Pe 2:11 NASB95] 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.
  
• [1Pe 4:2-3 NASB95] 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For the time already past is sufficient [for you] to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
  
• [2Pe 1:4 NASB95] 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of [the] divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
  
• [2Pe 2:10, 18 NASB95] 10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in [its] corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, ... 18 For speaking out arrogant [words] of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
• [2Pe 3:3 NASB95] 3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with [their] mocking, following after their own lusts,
• [1Jo 2:16-17 NASB95] 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and [also] its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
• [Jde 1:16, 18 NASB95] 16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their [own] lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of [gaining an] advantage. ... 18 that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."

 

[Rene Loup]

May I ask how an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in the privacy of one’s own bedroom is going to hurt someone? Especially if the person being fantasized about, either lives far away, is a movie star, or isn’t even a real person at all (imaginary). This sex-related part of the sermon is *not* an exception, because obviously coveting a real neighbor’s real wife could lead to hurting people. But fantasizing about the other things I mentioned? How…? It would be totally unrelated to the specific situation Christ was speaking of…

*Pulls plank out of my own eye.* (Matthew 7:1-5)

Any real woman is someone's daughter (Proverbs 17:6, Psalms 127:3-5). An imaginary cartoon woman is still something people can and do lust over. Lust is lust. As I have said before, one thing leads to another, even towards criminal behaviour.[1][2][3]

The Slippery Slope is real.[6] Back in my Mother's day, sexually charged shows like Game of Thrones appearing on television would have been unthinkable. Now, it is considered part of a new 'golden age' of television. The best evidence I have for this "fallacy" is watching shows like Family Guy and South Park with the older generations. The older they are, the stronger the reactions they give. My generation grew up seeing these shows as 'normal entertainment.' I expect my own grandchildren to tell me, "Hey, Grandpa, I watched that American Pie series you mentioned. You guys back then were real prudes!" One major sign of a civilization in decline is a cultural obsession with sex, and the decline of nations is gradual.[7]

For all of us, it is best to avoid sexual fantasy, especially ones involving harming anyone. When it comes to my own fantasies, I was told to fantasize about dancing with a woman instead of sleeping with her. An example that comes to mind is the ending of Avengers: End Game, the one with Captain America dancing with his love interest back in the 1940's. I genuinely felt happy for him, and would feel at peace living out that scene with my own loved one. I am sure she would love the same, if not more so.

It is difficult, I know. I highly recommend rebuking those thoughts in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:16-18, Luke 10:17-20, Matthew 28:18), pray to God (Ephesians 6:10-20, Mark 9:14-29, Matthew 6:5-15, 17:14-21), and quote Scripture (such as 1 Corinthians 6:18-20, 7:8-9, Galatians 5:19-21, Matthew 5:27-30), especially in combination, whenever sinful fantasies come to mind. This greatly helps me with my own sexual issues, though I am not always successful because of my own fallen human nature. I also highly recommend doing research on the effects of sexual immorality, because knowing is half the battle.[4][5]

I can tell you from personal experience, it is NOT a good idea AT ALL to attempt rationalizing sin (Isaiah 5:20-21, Proverbs 16:2, 21:2, 26:12). It will only open more doors for spiritual attack. When it comes to spiritual attacks, such as temptation, NEVER GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT!!!

1. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...serial-killers-and-the-essential-role-fantasy
2. https://www.researchgate.net/public...Fantasy_in_Serial_Sexual_Crime_Investigations
3. The role of fantasy in a serial sexual offender: a brief review of the literature and a case report - PubMed
4. YouTube.com - TheFuelProject - The "M" Word series - Published Nov 28, 2018 through Apr 10, 2019.
   
5. Home - Fight the New Drug
6. Slippery slope argument | logic
7. http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf - XVIII The Age of Intellect pp. 10 through XXXII Decadence is not physical pp. 20.

On May 1, 2021, at roughly 12:30 AM Eastern Time, I have added Scripture to these disclaimers, and am planning to continue doing so (John 13:1-17, Luke 16:1-15, Matthew 7:13-29). My apologies, I am still learning because I am a flawed human being who is predisposed towards selfishness.

On March 14, 2021, at roughly 10:30 PM Eastern Time, I have changed a word to change the context of a sentence. I was TOLD, NOT recommended. My apologies, I am still learning because I am a flawed human being who is predisposed towards selfishness.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So is enjoying (or thinking about enjoying) our 5 senses in other ways, also sinful? Or is it just a few minutes of thinking about sex?

Thinking about sex isn't sinful.

Turning another human person into an object of possession and personal gratification is.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Elear]

Fair point. Thanks.

]

I was actually agreeing with you. The verse uses a word that has a large range of meanings. Obviously, it can't be wrong to strongly desire something or someone. At what point does it cross the line from being an acceptable level or kind of desire to a bad one? The verse doesn't specify.

 

[Billy93]

Matthew 5:27-30 NASB
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Hi, thanks for your comment. I just wanted to mention regarding this passage: I wondered about the same thing, but I think that’s probably us looking at the text through modern eyes (just the way the word “lust” is now seen as an entirely sexual word - but it actually wasn’t, when the verse was first translated). The right hand & eye are referring to the strongest and best (left being the second best), of the most necessary parts of your body that you rely on - but you could still lose them without actually dying. I’ve read some interesting articles that delve more into why this passage is not referring to masturbation; if I come across them again I will post for you!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Having sexual thoughts that are outside of the one you are married to is wrong and God will condemn men for this sin if they don’t repent of such a sin.

Where does it say that?

It's a conclusion based on looking at several verses.

“Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.” (1 Corinthians 7:2).

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

So we can establish that the works of the flesh is fornication and it is a bad sin and it will lead us to not inheriting the kingdom of God. Fornication is any sexual immorality before one is married.

Galatians 5:16 says, “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

Can you honestly say to yourself that sexual fantasies that you have is not of one of the lusts (or desires) of the flesh? It sure is.

Jesus establishes in Matthew 5:28-30 that looking upon a woman in lust is adultery (Which would be having impure thoughts about a woman if one is married). Jesus says that one should cut off their hand (metaphorically speaking) is suggestive of a man playing with himself in fantasizing over a another woman. NOTHING is mentioned in the context of how the man was planning to actually make advances towards this woman. You have to add that to God's Word based on your own assumptions that makes room for having sexual fantasies about others that is not always wanted by the other person. But just the sexual fantasy in general that is not your wife is also wrong. It would be fornication. So if you watch cartoon porn (which does not involve sex with real people), you would still be in violation of the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30 because it is sexual immorality. God did not create sex to be reserved for touching yourself, but sex is reserved for one's wife. Sex outside of marriage of any kind whether it be physical or imagined is condemned by God.

John establishes that one can commit murder by hating their brother in 1 John 3:15. This also establishes that hate is like that of physical act of murder. So this tell us that fornication can also be done in the mind and can condemn us, as well.

For Jesus says, “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.” (Matthew 15:19-20).

Jesus says out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts. Now, I don't know about you, but if you fantasize about another woman you don't know, you are having evil thoughts about her because she has not approved of you having such fantasies about her. For I am sure if you told a woman about your sexual fantasies to her and her dad, and her mother, they would probably be pretty upset. So no. Such fantasies are not harmless. If they were totally harmless, you would not have to HIDE such a sin. If something is pure, and good, then telling them about such sexual fantasies would be okay with them (Unless they were sexually impure people who were porn stars, or prostitutes, or they were a part of a sex cult, or something).

I agree that we should depart from iniquity, but the Bible does not say that simply imagining sexual relations for a few minutes, is a sin.

That is what Matthew 5:28-30 heavily implies indeed. For there are no words by our Lord Jesus that says that.... “and if a man plans to have sin with a woman only, he is condemned, but if he does not plan to have sex with her and he merely fantasizes about her with intending to not go through with any physical act, then it is okay.” Jesus did not say these words. YOU DID. You are adding to the words of Jesus Christ. His words can easily be read as referring to condemning sexual fantasies. You said you think the modern day dictionaries are wrong. So you are correcting how we understand words today. Why would God want to confuse us like this? God is not the author of confusion.

Shouldn’t the Bible tell us plainly that it is evil and wrong, if it is? This is not something new under the sun; people have had sexual fantasies since biblical times. I have told God repeatedly that I am willing (and want) to give it up if it is in fact a sin, but I am still just not seeing that it is.

Sorry, I don't believe you. I don't think you would really give it up if you knew it was a sin because you are trying to rationalize sexual fantasies (evil thoughts towards your neighbor) as being okay with God. It's kind of obvious that sexual fanatasies are not okay.

Matthew 5:27-28 directly refers to the 10th commandment; mere “fantasizing” does not meet the criteria of the 10th commandment. I am absolutely giving up what Christ refers to in Matthew 5:27-28 aka covetousness; I have no intention to actually meet up and commit sexual immorality with a woman ever again.

Then you will stop having sexual thoughts towards woman if such is the case.
Again, what do you make of porn? Do you think porn is okay to watch for a Christian?
If things are as you say, then porn would not be a problem. But I don't think the porn industry is something of God.