Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Leaf473]

As they say, "the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step".

I'm guessing there has been a lot of ground covered since Jesus went to be with the Father.

Sounds like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

More details, plzzzz

 

[Nathan@work]

Sounds like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

More details, plzzzz

Ever played the game where a group of people all sit in a circle and a phrase gets passed around, person to person, and then the last person says it out loud?

It never is the same phrase as when it started. Everyone 'hears' what they want to hear, and that's what they pass on.

Somewhere back in time there came an idea of "moral" laws, or in reality what they are saying is 'the laws that God really means and won't ever change from'......

So it starts with someone saying, probably with good intention, that ______ is a "moral" law that really applies to all mankind no matter what and for all time. Then someone else comes along and says well if ______ is a "moral" law, then _______ is a "moral" law.

The journey began and continues to this day.

[1Ti 1:3-7 ESV]

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We believe what is written in the Bible with the assistance of the Holy Spirit... "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." John 16:13

You have been attacking me for several posts, using legalistic thinking instead of plain logic. I'm not sure what your intent is but you're not making much sense.

Your "signature" speaks volumes: "The only scripture written by God in the entire Bible is The 10 commandments. God asked us to obey all 10 commandments, not just 9. God bless"

So you're saying that the contents Bible books are not God's words? That the Holy Spirit did not flawlessly inspire the Bible? That Jesus, being a third of the Godhead, spoke words that were not of God? John 14:10, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds."

To answer your (question) about my signature line, the only scripture written in the entire Bible by the hand of God is the 10 commandments. He wrote the Ten with His finger and also spoke them. There is no other scripture in the Bible where we are told He wrote scripture with His own finger other than the Ten. I think it is pretty significant and when you read all the scriptures throughout the OT and NT about love and knowing God and God showing mercy when keeping His laws based on love, not legalism there is no doubt they are important to Him.

I have never said anything about the Bible not being God's Words, in fact I say quite the opposite. He just never wrote the rest of the scripture with His finger. I hope this clears up your questions about my signature line. God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thanks for the nice response!

I see in exodus that God writes The ten commandments on the tablets, which Moses then breaks.

Then later in Exodus, God tells Moses to bring up stone tablets and he, God, will write the commandments on them. But that set of commandments is quite different.

Then in Deuteronomy, there's a list that is close to the first one in Exodus, but differs slightly.

In your opinion, which one is the one that God wrote originally, and which one is the one that was placed in the ark?

Hi there,
Sorry I am just getting back to you. It's a good question but according to scripture God wrote the same 10 commandments shown in Exodus 20 when he rewrote them after they were broken.

Exodus 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.

 

[Nathan@work]

Hi there,
Sorry I am just getting back to you. It's a good question but according to scripture God wrote the same 10 commandments shown in Exodus 20 when he rewrote them after they were broken.

Exodus 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.

Side note on this. Do you find it interesting that God had Moses cut the tablets?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Side note on this. Do you find it interesting that God had Moses cut the tablets?

What is your thought on that?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You wrote, "It's the day God blessed, made holy, told us to hallow and sanctified" I'm not sure what the last phrase "told us to hallow and sanctified" means, but it's an addition to God's Word.

Isaiah 66:17-24, “As for those who consecrate and ritually purify themselves so they can follow their leader and worship in the sacred orchards, those who eat the flesh of pigs and other disgusting creatures, like mice—they will all be destroyed together,” says the Lord. “I hate their deeds and thoughts! So I am coming [future!] to gather all the nations and ethnic groups; they will come and witness my splendor. I will perform a mighty act among them and then send some of those who remain to the nations—to Tarshish, Pul, Lud (known for its archers), Tubal, Javan, and to the distant coastlands that have not heard about me or seen my splendor. They will tell the nations of my splendor. They will bring back all your countrymen from all the nations as an offering to the Lord. They will bring them on horses, in chariots, in wagons, on mules, and on camels to my holy hill Jerusalem,” says the Lord, “just as the Israelites bring offerings to the Lord’s temple in ritually pure containers. And I will choose some of them as priests and Levites,” says the Lord. “For just as the new heavens and the new earth I am about to make will remain standing before me,” says the Lord, “so your descendants and your name will remain. From one month to the next and from one Sabbath to the next, all people will come to worship me,” says the Lord. “They will go out and observe the corpses of those who rebelled against me, for the maggots that eat them will not die, and the fire that consumes them will not die out. All people will find the sight abhorrent.”

It is a serious error to take one phrase out of context to try to prove an erroneous point. The sabbath is about a day of rest unless you're interested in observing corpses, as God commanded.

Yes, this is referencing the future. God is not telling us in Isaiah 66:23 that we will be worshipping corpses it says ALL (who are saved) will be worshipping Him every Sabbath. The next verse is describing the people who will not be saved.

It also says this in Isaiah 24

4. The earth mourns and fades away,
The world languishes and fades away;
The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants,
Because they have transgressed the laws,
Changed the ordinance,
Broken the everlasting covenant.

 

[Nathan@work]

What is your thought on that?

I actually don't have one other than I find it curious. I had never given it any thought before, but it stood out to me this time around.

When you read the Exodus account, chapter 20 is God speaking to the congregation - audibly.

After that takes place, then God calls Him up and gives Him the first tablets - nothing is said about Moses cutting the first ones.

In fact, Exodus 32:16 specifically says the first tablets were the work of God.

After Moses breaks them, that's when God tells Moses to 'cut for himself' tablets to bring up.

God could have easily had Moses get ones that were not cut by man. Or God could have provided them like He did the first time.

God had specific instructions concerning His altar, and it was not to be made with man-cut stones. The reason being that man cutting the stone would be profane. How much more holy(not sure that's the best word to use?) are the tablets than the altar.

I just find it all interesting. Probably some good study in there.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi there,
Sorry I am just getting back to you. It's a good question but according to scripture God wrote the same 10 commandments shown in Exodus 20 when he rewrote them after they were broken.

Exodus 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.

Yes, I agree that God wrote the same thing both times.

But, the record that we have of what he wrote, is that the record in Exodus or in Deuteronomy?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I actually don't have one other than I find it curious. I had never given it any thought before, but it stood out to me this time around.

When you read the Exodus account, chapter 20 is God speaking to the congregation - audibly.

After that takes place, then God calls Him up and gives Him the first tablets - nothing is said about Moses cutting the first ones.

In fact, Exodus 32:16 specifically says the first tablets were the work of God.

After Moses breaks them, that's when God tells Moses to 'cut for himself' tablets to bring up.

God could have easily had Moses get ones that were not cut by man. Or God could have provided them like He did the first time.

God had specific instructions concerning His altar, and it was not to be made with man-cut stones. The reason being that man cutting the stone would be profane. How much more holy(not sure that's the best word to use?) are the tablets than the altar.

I just find it all interesting. Probably some good study in there.

Interesting, but perhaps it was the same process:

Exodus 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones,

Maybe Moses cut the first ones too? Is there scripture indicating one way or another?

Exodus 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

The work of God seems to be that He was writing His covenant on stone with His finger which to me, seems to be what is significant. He wrote the same laws on both sets of stone.

That's my take away, but it's always good to study more!

 

[Jake Arsenal]

Matthew 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

 

[Leaf473]

Hi again, @imge

You (or anyone) are also welcome to respond to this post, if you wish. It's kind of a follow-up, getting back to the idea of what standard is used to decide if a law is a moral law.

Taking as a given that the ten commandments listed in Exodus when the Israelites first enter the wilderness,

how would we get from that to the ten commandments being the only moral laws in the Law?

 

[Leaf473]

Side note on this. Do you find it interesting that God had Moses cut the tablets?

I also find it interesting that apparently the Hebrew is ambiguous regarding who actually does the writing on the second set of stones.

Probably has to do with how Hebrew handles pronouns, my guess

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi again, @imge

You're also welcome to respond to this post, if you wish. It's kind of a follow-up, getting back to the idea of what standard is used to decide if a law is a moral law.

Yes, I sure will, give me a bit and I will get back to you a little later today and answer both questions. Need to run for now. God bless

 

[Nathan@work]

Interesting, but perhaps it was the same process:

Exodus 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones,

Maybe Moses cut the first ones too? Is there scripture indicating one way or another?

Exodus 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

The work of God seems to be that He was writing His covenant on stone with His finger which to me, seems to be what is significant. He wrote the same laws on both sets of stone.

That's my take away, but it's always good to study more!

I am pretty sure it is specific that God made the first tablets, and Moses cut the second ones to be 'like' the first ones.

The language used in Exodus 32:16 gives two specifics. One for the tablets, one for the writing.

The tablets were the work of God, the writing was the writing of God. Very specific and not like the second set. Which God then says 'cut for yourself'.

I find it very interesting the more I think about it. I cannot believe all these years I have never seen it.

 

[Leaf473]

Matthew 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

Hi Jake Arsenal, nice to meet you!

My take away from that passage is that Jesus is saying that what the disciples are doing is okay.

They are being charged with harvesting on the Sabbath, as I see it. But that is okay, even though they could have been more prepared the day before or just waited until they were at a place where there was already harvested food.

In the OT, God said to stone a person who was just gathering sticks on the Sabbath, so it sounds to me like Jesus is changing things here.

What is your take away?

 

[Leaf473]

And He said it is a day of "holy convocation" Lev 23:3
And He said that all mankind would come before God to worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" Isaiah 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

And we see that it is not a day for any secular activity at all Isaiah 58:13

And we see Paul in the synagogue preaching the Gospel "very Sabbath" Acts 18:4 to both believing Jews and gentiles and unbelieving Jews and gentiles.

Just a thought here,

Based on the context, it sounds like people will be going to Jerusalem every Sabbath (or possibly, every week).

Not only to celebrate the Sabbath, but also the new moon festival. Also with a restored levitical priesthood.

Most Christian groups don't subscribe to the above, but I've read it in Hebrew Roots literature.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Nathan@work]

Reading a little more.....

The second time around God instructs Moses to make an ark of wood to put the tablets in. That is another difference than the first time. Think about it for a bit.....

That right there.....oh man....that is some good stuff!

 

[Nathan@work]

Just a thought here,

Based on the context, it sounds like people will be going to Jerusalem every Sabbath (or possibly, every week).

Not only to celebrate the Sabbath, but also the new moon festival. Also with a restored levitical priesthood.

Most Christian groups don't subscribe to the above, but I've read it in Hebrew Roots literature.

Thoughts anyone?

This may be long, but it just cannot be broken down any further without losing its truth.


Isaiah 66:23 should not be taken without verse 22 and 24. They all go together.

[Isa 66:22-24 ESV]

"For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

When you read it all, in its context, you see that this is a description of what we refer to as "eternity".

It is not talking about literal new moon's, literal Sabbath's, or literal dead bodies.

Those are all a reference to time.

There will not be a need for a weekly(or any other) Sabbath.

The Sabbath was given to man because of the pain he would endure living his life.

[Gen 3:17-19 ESV]

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Mankind needed a Sabbath because of this result of sin. However.......

[Rev 21:1-4 ESV]

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

The old pain and agony of 'life' will be no more. There will not be a need for physical rest(Sabbath), we will be in eternal rest......we are in eternal rest.....

 

[pescador]

I am pretty sure it is specific that God made the first tablets, and Moses cut the second ones to be 'like' the first ones.

The language used in Exodus 32:16 gives two specifics. One for the tablets, one for the writing.

The tablets were the work of God, the writing was the writing of God. Very specific and not like the second set. Which God then says 'cut for yourself'.

I find it very interesting the more I think about it. I cannot believe all these years I have never seen it.

Exodus 32:15-16, NET v2.1, "Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hands. The tablets were written on both sides—they were written on the front and on the back. Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.

Exodus 34:1, "The Lord said to Moses, “Cut out two tablets of stone like the first, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you smashed.

It seems that both sets were identical and both were written by God.