Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

[stevevw]

And that's not giving them hormones that they aren't used to, it's PREVENTING the hormones that come with puberty from changing them against their will.

But stopping what the body should be doing in development is also something that young bodies are not use to and should not happen. It can be just as bad as giving them drugs and infact can be worse. So I cannot see how you can justify its OK simply because the child is not given something because people think or feel something is being taken away and denied.

The idea that we should stop nature and development which can be harmful because it may be less harmful than a body developing into something against their will seems irational. Its like because a child may feel bad lets do something else that is bad for them to make things better. How do we know that this is not just componding the bad things to make matters worse.

It is also based on an assumption that just because the child feels incongruence and bad that they must be trans and need treatment especially at an age when young people will feel bad as a normal part of development. Considering that gender confusion is a normal part of development and most children (85%) grow out of it this that is a dangerous idea and part of the ideology that is being promoted based on little evdience.

And yet a 16 year old girl who gets pregnant is judged as fit to be a mother.

That doesnt make sense considering a mother at 16 years is equal to a girl getting pregnant not long after turning 15 which seems strange to be saying that a young person at that age knows what the full consequences of her actions are. Rarely a 15 year old plans to get pregrnant at that age and therefore it supports the idea that they dont understand what they are doing or the consequences of they actions. The fact that they are allowed to be a mother after the fact is irrelevant.

In any case, it doesn't make much sense to make people wait until after puberty to allow them to have puberty blockers, does it? Makes about as much sense as not letting people wear seatbelts until AFTER they've crashed.

That’s a false analogy. Seatbelts have been tested and shown beyond doubt that they save lives. Puberty blockers haven’t. But as mentioned if puberty blockers prove safe and tests prove they help those with gender dysphoria then fair enough.

The problem I and many others have is that at the moment the trend is heading for Trans affirming treatment and no or little other treatments being used. If we are going to use this as the number 1 treatment in place of everything else and we are choosing to do it earlier simply when a young person expresses some confusion then we are going to end up misdiagnosing many children and doing permanent harm.

The evidence shows that most children grow out of their gender confusion after puberty and if blockers are irreversible then that would be too late. The evidence also shows that most people who are candidates for being Trans also have a number of other mental health disorders and these are never addressed when it comes to Trans affirming treatments. In fact the evidence shows that be sending a kid down the path of trans affirming treatments can make a child who would have grown out of it more confused and more likely to think they are trans. It’s a self-fulfilling therapy.

The other problem is that because the Trans affirming treatments are being pushed no one can ever speak up about the alternatives because they are labelled transphobic. At this stage some are beginning to realize that the evidence is not there. Evidence is showing that even those who are being transitioned some are realising that it was the wrong option and have regrets.

Other evidence shows that despite having the treatments there is still a high level of mental health issues from family abuse, poor relationships with parents and other comorbid issues. So there is a lot of evidence as to why we should not at this stage automatically push the gender affirming treatments for young people.

 

[Kylie]

But stopping what the body should be doing in development is also something that young bodies are not use to and should not happen. It can be just as bad as giving them drugs and infact can be worse. So I cannot see how you can justify its OK simply because the child is not given something because people think or feel something is being taken away and denied.

The idea that we should stop nature and development which can be harmful because it may be less harmful than a body developing into something against their will seems irational. Its like because a child may feel bad lets do something else that is bad for them to make things better. How do we know that this is not just componding the bad things to make matters worse.

It is also based on an assumption that just because the child feels incongruence and bad that they must be trans and need treatment especially at an age when young people will feel bad as a normal part of development. Considering that gender confusion is a normal part of development and most children (85%) grow out of it this that is a dangerous idea and part of the ideology that is being promoted based on little evdience.

You miss the point. You can't very well deny a person the use of puberty blockers until after they've gone through puberty. It's a bit late then, doncha think?

That doesnt make sense considering a mother at 16 years is equal to a girl getting pregnant not long after turning 15 which seems strange to be saying that a young person at that age knows what the full consequences of her actions are. Rarely a 15 year old plans to get pregrnant at that age and therefore it supports the idea that they dont understand what they are doing or the consequences of they actions. The fact that they are allowed to be a mother after the fact is irrelevant.

Ah. So any girl who gets pregnant at 15 and is on her way to being a 16 year old mother should be made to have an abortion, since she can't know what the full consequences of her actions are.

That’s a false analogy. Seatbelts have been tested and shown beyond doubt that they save lives. Puberty blockers haven’t. But as mentioned if puberty blockers prove safe and tests prove they help those with gender dysphoria then fair enough.

And what if there was no science to back up the seatbelt claim? Would you be saying cars shouldn't be made with seatbelts? Oh, and seatbelts to cause their own share of injuries.

And giving trans people treatment to reduce their dysphoria DOES save their lives.

The problem I and many others have is that at the moment the trend is heading for Trans affirming treatment and no or little other treatments being used. If we are going to use this as the number 1 treatment in place of everything else and we are choosing to do it earlier simply when a young person expresses some confusion then we are going to end up misdiagnosing many children and doing permanent harm.

The evidence shows that most children grow out of their gender confusion after puberty and if blockers are irreversible then that would be too late. The evidence also shows that most people who are candidates for being Trans also have a number of other mental health disorders and these are never addressed when it comes to Trans affirming treatments. In fact the evidence shows that be sending a kid down the path of trans affirming treatments can make a child who would have grown out of it more confused and more likely to think they are trans. It’s a self-fulfilling therapy.

The other problem is that because the Trans affirming treatments are being pushed no one can ever speak up about the alternatives because they are labelled transphobic. At this stage some are beginning to realize that the evidence is not there. Evidence is showing that even those who are being transitioned some are realising that it was the wrong option and have regrets.

Other evidence shows that despite having the treatments there is still a high level of mental health issues from family abuse, poor relationships with parents and other comorbid issues. So there is a lot of evidence as to why we should not at this stage automatically push the gender affirming treatments for young people.

So you don't want trans affirming treatments to be used? Right, just tell them, "Too bad, you were born with a penis, so you're a boy! Just deal with it!" Yeah, that's gonna be REALLY helpful.

 

[stevevw]

You miss the point. You can't very well deny a person the use of puberty blockers until after they've gone through puberty. It's a bit late then, doncha think?

I havent missed that point and thats why I mentioned that puberty blockers have to be given before puberty when they are still children. But that wasnt your point. Your point was that puberty blockers were different somehow to giving kids hormone treatment as its something the body is not use to. I was just pointing out that neither is stopping puberty.

Nevertheless saying that you cannot deny a young person puberty blockers is making the assumption that puberty blockers is an OK treatment, that the right disagnosis has been done to give PB and that PB is the right treatment. There are a lot of unknowns and we should think twice about sending kids to trans affirmative treatments especially if most grow out of their trans feelings, most kids on puberty blockers go onto cross sex hormones which are also potentialy harmful and there are other problems to address that may fix the problem besided PB.

Ah. So any girl who gets pregnant at 15 and is on her way to being a 16 year old mother should be made to have an abortion, since she can't know what the full consequences of her actions are.

No I didnt say that and your putting ideas in my head. Evenso this doesnt negate the fact that a girl getting pregnant at 15 is unplanned because she is not mature enough in her brain development to fully appreciate the situation. She can get help from her family but I am pretty sure she didnt say hey mum I'm planning to have a baby while at school. Your trying to create a red herring here.

And what if there was no science to back up the seatbelt claim? Would you be saying cars shouldn't be made with seatbelts? Oh, and seatbelts to cause their own share of injuries.

Yes of course people do that now and thats the point in saying why are trans activists pushing something that has unknown and known risks while at the same time claiming that they are doing it because they care for children. Its a contradiction and points to there being more to it than just kids welfare at stake.

Look at cars when they discover a slight fault in an air bag or brake system ect. They give out warnings not to drive them and make a recall of all those cars to fix them. Look at food when they even find some ingredient that may be a risk to some. They take it off the shelf and make a recall. Look at the Covid-19 vacinne and thye scrutiny and effort of testing it in such a small time scale and how some will protest that some vacines are a risk ect and reuse to take them. Some versions are stopped because of a slight risk.

And giving trans people treatment to reduce their dysphoria DOES save their lives.

Well I think the jury is still out on that one. Sure treatment of some sort saves lives but its an assumption ot say that a certain treatment just because it may show some positive result initially is going to be good in the long run and not make matters worse.

For example puberty blockers may delay puberty and some may get some relief obvuiously because if they feel they are in the wrong body, delaying development of that wrong body is relieving. But thats assuming that this was their problem.

Its a complex issue because there are a number of similar conditions that have similar symptoms to gender dyphoria like Body dysmorphic disorder and especially for girls and coincidently we are seeing a massive increase in girls presenting as saying they maybe trans. But is this the case. Girls in general suffer from body hatred IE
11) WHY ARE SO MANY FEMALES COMING OUT AS TRANS/NON-BINARY?
WHY ARE SO MANY FEMALES COMING OUT AS TRANS/NON-BINARY? — Gender Health Query

But there is an explosion in kids presenting as gender dyphoric in general and its all all becaus ethey feel more able to come forward. The research is showing trends like spates of young people where their entire social group all identifed as trans from having absolutely no symptoms. Then you have to consider all the other reasons why a young person may hate their body related to psychological trauma which when they recieve psychotherapy may reduce they body hatred including gender dysphoria.

So you don't want trans affirming treatments to be used? Right, just tell them, "Too bad, you were born with a penis, so you're a boy! Just deal with it!" Yeah, that's gonna be REALLY helpful.

I havnt said that. Your once again attributing a position to me that I have not said. You seem to thnk if someone questions or objects to the claims of trans activists that they must be only doing it because they are transphobic and cruel. It may be that my position is the only compassionate one to take in truth if we really want the best for kids. I have said that I dont care what sort of treatment is given in the end so long as its safe and proves to work.

 

[stevevw]

evidence that it's happening? none.

As you will see the examples I gave in the previous post of Dr Zucker and Dr Tania Marshall are examples this is happening despite your claims they are not. Why would artciles say that its a concern that activists are punishing medical professionals and others for expressing their views and scientific facts that oppose trans ideology if it wasn't happening. Anyway here are some more examples.
Doctor loses job after refusing to call 'any 6ft bearded man' madam
Doctor loses job after refusing to call 'any 6ft bearded man' madam
Politicised trans groups put children at risk, says expert
School counsellors and mental health service providers are bowing to pressures from ‘highly politicised’ transgender groups to affirm children’s beliefs that they were born the wrong sex, a leading expert has warned.
Politicised trans groups put children at risk, says expert
NHS 'over-diagnosing' children having transgender treatment, former staff warn
The NHS is "over-diagnosing" children having medical treatment for gender dysphoria, with psychologists unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic", former staff have warned.
NHS 'over-diagnosing' children having transgender treatment, former staff warn

except it is a matter of public record that CAMH initiated an external review of the practices of the clinic Zucker was in charge of. "The review found the clinic is "an insular entity with an approach dissimilar from other clinics and described it as being out of step with current best practices" and found that subordinates under Zucker were engaging in illegal therapies with youths. Ref: "External review of the Gender Identity Clinic of the child, youth and family services in the underserved populations program at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health". CAMH. 2015-11-26.

Zucker sued CAMH and they settled out of court. CAMH says it stands behind its decision

Yes but you have not told the full truth. CAMH stood by its decision to close the clinic but not that they were justified in sacking Dr Zucker. They actually apologised to Dr Zucker and admitted they were wrong in sacking him and that’s why he won the court case and was awarded damages.

Canada's largest mental health centre has apologized to one of its former psychologists and said it will pay him more than half a million dollars years after it published a report that erroneously described the doctor's interactions with patients.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/camh-settlement-former-head-gender-identity-clinic-1.4854015

This once again highlights how the facts are ignored and people want to destroy others who don’t go along with the ideology. It also proves my claim that Tran’s activists do attack medical professionals and cause them to get sacked.
Dr. Zucker, whose position at CAMH was terminated under pressure from Trans activists, has been a special target for demonization.
THREATS & CENSORSHIP RESULT IF TRANS ACTIVISTS DEMANDS ARE NOT MET REGARDING CHILDREN & TEENS & GD — Gender Health Query

Marshall was asked about the claimed death threats when she was speaking at The Neurodiversity Academy in August on 2019. Specifically she was asked what response had come from law enforcement. She indicated she never reported the death threats saying it just wasn't necessary.
Yeah that is a healthy response to death threats

so you don’t believe her like you didn’t believe DR Zucker and just want to make her life even more difficult for simply expressing the truth.

yes it does.

Well I have now provided that support above. But common sense tells us that if trans activists are attacking anyone who does not follow their ideology then it stands to reason that those who oppose will either be attacked or keep quiet for fear of being attacked. We know that trans activists are having a go at doctors, counsellors and anyone else who speak out against their ideology so what position does that put anyone who disagrees in.

on what planet is this happening?

Thats an interesting reply. Are you saying trans affirming treatments should not be put into law. But if they are put into law doesn't this put medical professionals who disagree in a difficult situation.

what treatments are doctors being forced to engage in?

As I have supported above transgender affirming treatments such as putting children on puberty blockers and teens on cross sex hormones. Then surgery as adults. Some doctors disagree with these treatments because the evicnece is not there and there are unknown risks. But increasingly they are being forced to promote and provide trans affirming treatments even of they disagree. IE

The transition-affirming approach has been embraced by public institutions in media, education, and our legal system, and is now recommended by most national medical organizations.
I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.
NHS 'over-diagnosing' children having transgender treatment, former staff warn
The NHS is "over-diagnosing" children having medical treatment for gender dysphoria, with psychologists unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic", former staff have warned.
NHS 'over-diagnosing' children having transgender treatment, former staff warn

any treatment has potential and unknown risks. This is where informed consent comes in
Any surgeon will tell you there is no guarantee of success. Again informed consent

the problem is children cannot give informed consent and even if they could or their parents could the information they are given is not correct to make a proper informed consent and that is a breach of legal rights.

 

[Kylie]

Doctor loses job after refusing to call 'any 6ft bearded man' madam
Doctor loses job after refusing to call 'any 6ft bearded man' madam

Doctor fired after repeatedly misgendering patient after he decided that he could put his own personal beliefs above a patient's rights.

Politicised trans groups put children at risk, says expert
School counsellors and mental health service providers are bowing to pressures from ‘highly politicised’ transgender groups to affirm children’s beliefs that they were born the wrong sex, a leading expert has warned.
Politicised trans groups put children at risk, says expert

Counsellors and mental health service providers are being told to believe what patients say about themselves. (Funnily enough, these "highly politicised transgender groups" are never named, and the review of the guy's concerns found nothing wrong.)

NHS 'over-diagnosing' children having transgender treatment, former staff warn
The NHS is "over-diagnosing" children having medical treatment for gender dysphoria, with psychologists unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic", former staff have warned.
NHS 'over-diagnosing' children having transgender treatment, former staff warn

I'm sorry, do they have figures on how many children should have gender dysphoria?

I can see it now. "I'm sorry, little Billy, but we've met our quota for kids with dysphoria for this month, so we have to assume you're just mistaken about what's happening to you. Why don't you try coming back next month? We'll try to get you in first thing!"

 

[SilverBear]

Doctor fired after repeatedly misgendering patient after he decided that he could put his own personal beliefs above a patient's rights.



Counsellors and mental health service providers are being told to believe what patients say about themselves. (Funnily enough, these "highly politicised transgender groups" are never named, and the review of the guy's concerns found nothing wrong.)



I'm sorry, do they have figures on how many children should have gender dysphoria?

I can see it now. "I'm sorry, little Billy, but we've met our quota for kids with dysphoria for this month, so we have to assume you're just mistaken about what's happening to you. Why don't you try coming back next month? We'll try to get you in first thing!"

Thank you for having the will to continue to confront hateful nonsense.

 

[stevevw]

Doctor fired after repeatedly misgendering patient after he decided that he could put his own personal beliefs above a patient's rights.

Yet the employers policy states that they support their staffs rights to religious beliefs.
As an inclusive employer we will not tolerate discrimination. Our HR policies are fully inclusive of all staff regardless of: religion or belief

He didn't repeatedly misgender anyone. The person involved gave the doctor a hypothetical about whether he would call a man a women and the doctor said he could not due to his conscience and belief.
"In truth, the argument between us arose not because of any realistic concerns over the rights and sensitivities of transgender individuals, but because of my refusal to make an abstract ideological pledge to call any six-feet tall bearded man 'madam' on his whim.
Doctor loses job after refusing to call 'any 6ft bearded man' madam

So basically the Doctor was doing what other medical professionals have done in not going along with the trans ideology that a man can identity as a women because he feels that way. That people also have the right to express their belief and views that a man is a man and a woman is a woman. The point is the science is on the side of these people and ideology should not be the rule or guide in forcing people to deny reality.

Counsellors and mental health service providers are being told to believe what patients say about themselves. (Funnily enough, these "highly politicised transgender groups" are never named, and the review of the guy's concerns found nothing wrong.)

The politicised group in this case was the GIDS clinic's management and the review was done by the same management who are of course going to say that there is nothing wrong. How many times have we heard denials from organisations only to find harm going on when its too late. The fact is 35 staff resigned over the last 3 years due to this situation and 6 of them have raised concerns. You don’t get that amount of people all having the same concerns enough to resign without some truth to the claims.

Thirty five psychologists have resigned from the children's gender-identity service in London in the last three years. Six of those have now raised concerns
NHS 'over-diagnosing' children having transgender treatment, former staff warn

When we look at the facts we find that there has been a 4,400 per cent increase in referral to the GIDS Clinic way beyond normal trends which points to over diagnosis. It’s of such concern that despite the GIDS clinic claiming that there was nothing wrongs the NHS is doing a review. So there must be some concerns to warrant a review.

NHS to hold review into gender identity services for children and young people
Review will examine rise in number of children in UK seeking treatment, from 77 in 2009 to 2,590 in 2018-19
NHS to hold review into gender identity services for children and young people

the number of 13-year-olds referred rose by 30 per cent on the previous year, while the number of 11-year-olds was up by 28 per cent.
https://civitas.org.uk/content/files/2454-A-The-Corrosive-Impact-of-TI-ppi-110-WEB.pdf

This also comes on top of several parents suing the GIDS for misdiagnosis and giving treatments to young people without proper informed consent which has led to permanent harm.

NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition
A 23-year-old woman who is taking legal action against an NHS gender clinic says she should have been challenged more by medical staff over her decision to transition to a male as a teenager.

Lawyers will argue children cannot give informed consent to treatment delaying puberty or helping them to transition.
NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition

As mentioned before gender dysphoria can be confused for other mental health problems. Many of the large increases in young people especially girls identifying as the opposite sex are said to also be autistic and trans ideology appeals to them as this gives them a sence of identity and belonging. They are more or less indoctrinated into being trans.

School has SEVENTEEN children changing gender as teacher says vulnerable pupils are being 'tricked' into believing they are the wrong sex

According to an internal report, a third of patients referred to the Tavistock Clinic, the UK’s only NHS service for young people confused about their gender, have strong autistic traits.
The whistleblower says few of the transgender children are suffering from gender dysphoria – the medical term for someone who feels they were born in the wrong body – but are just easily influenced, latching on to the mistaken belief they are the wrong sex as a way of coping with the problems caused by autism.
Whistleblower teacher makes shocking claim that 'most are autistic' | Daily Mail Online

I'm sorry, do they have figures on how many children should have gender dysphoria?

There are certain ways we can determine the figures and trends and whether there are other factors going that cause young people identifying as Trans. The point is proper research and investigation is needed to determine the facts and not some ideology that just pushes one idea that gets in the head of people and influences their thinking that any feelings of incongruence with gender means you are transgender. There are many other reasons.

But the ideology is being aggressively pushed and medical professionals are not allowed to investigate other causes as they are labelled transphobic. That’s why we are seeing spikes in young people identifying as Trans way beyond normal trends compared to other conditions which points to some social contagion.

While for many others, given the recent evidence of ROGD (rapid-onset gender dysphoria) amongst adolescents in recent years, it is widely believed that we are facing a wave of social transitioners who are self-identifying as transgender because of a social contagion. Nowhere is this more apparent than in the UK where the onslaught of pro-trans lobby groups have infiltrated the education system—even advising the NHS despite these groups not being professionally qualified in this field—such that there has been a 4000% increase over the past decade in girls presenting to the country’s only gender clinic for children, the Tavistock in London, self-identifying as transgender.
"Evil Womxn": The Silencing Of Biological Reality And The Technology Of Obfuscation

I can see it now. "I'm sorry, little Billy, but we've met our quota for kids with dysphoria for this month, so we have to assume you're just mistaken about what's happening to you. Why don't you try coming back next month? We'll try to get you in first thing!"

Unfortunately it’s the other way around where they are filling quotas and going beyond where the kids should not have been transitioned at all.

So we will be telling little Billy " I'm sorry Billy we were so eager to push our ideology that we misdiagnosed you and gave you treatments for being trans when you were not trans. Now you cannot have children and you may have an underdeveloped brain.

 

[stevevw]

Thank you for having the will to continue to confront hateful nonsense.

Or it could also be that I am persisting because I believe like others that the truth and facts need to be explained and that rather than hateful it is being kind ans saving young people from being misdiagnosed and permantely harmed. Like I said I am all for trans affirmative treatments if they end up being the best way to help young people in this difficult and harrowing situation. But I don't want to see these kids problems compounded by irrational ideas. Lets look at the science and facts and not the ideology and politics.

In 20 years we'll look back on the rush to change our children's sex as one of the darkest chapters in medicine, says psychotherapist BOB WITHERS
Whistleblower teacher makes shocking claim that 'most are autistic' | Daily Mail Online

 

[Kylie]

Yet the employers policy states that they support their staffs rights to religious beliefs.
As an inclusive employer we will not tolerate discrimination. Our HR policies are fully inclusive of all staff regardless of: religion or belief

Irrelevant. A doctor's religious beliefs do not override a patient's rights. If the doctor can't do that, he should not be a doctor.

He didn't repeatedly misgender anyone. The person involved gave the doctor a hypothetical about whether he would call a man a women and the doctor said he could not due to his conscience and belief.
"In truth, the argument between us arose not because of any realistic concerns over the rights and sensitivities of transgender individuals, but because of my refusal to make an abstract ideological pledge to call any six-feet tall bearded man 'madam' on his whim.
Doctor loses job after refusing to call 'any 6ft bearded man' madam

Ah, so he just said he would intentionally misgender them.

I would go on, but all I see is that you are attempting to find "science" to support your view that medical professionals should be allowed to discriminate against trans people. You may even believe yourself that the "science" is on your side, but at the end of the day, you are still saying that trans people have less right to be treated how the wish to be treated than the people who think that they are wrong.

 

[stevevw]

Irrelevant. A doctor's religious beliefs do not override a patient's rights. If the doctor can't do that, he should not be a doctor.

So what if the doctor refuses to do it on the grounds that its unscientific. Say he refuses to do a hyterectomy or remove a males genitals because he thinks this is doing harm and against his hippocratic oath. What about psychologists like Dr Petersen who disagrees with using gender pronouns because it is compelled speech which is a denial of freedom of though and speech.

Ah, so he just said he would intentionally misgender them.

No he was making the same argument as Petersen. Why should anyone be compelled to use someone elses ideologically self described and proclaimed language when it has no basis is reality. As Petersen says he will address someone as he percieves them. So if a 6 foot bearded man is presented then he sees that person as a man. In reality they are a man and that is what the science states and has done since mammals occupied the earth.

Now a very small minority has come along and are dictating how people should think and what language they should use based on a personal subjective idea of reality. That is compeleld speech and this has never been imposed on people in the history of any western nation. It is a equivelant to a dictatorship.

I would go on, but all I see is that you are attempting to find "science" to support your view that medical professionals should be allowed to discriminate against trans people. You may even believe yourself that the "science" is on your side, but at the end of the day, you are still saying that trans people have less right to be treated how the wish to be treated than the people who think that they are wrong.

No the science is what keeps everything in reality and stops crazy ideas being promoted as science. Otherwise we can be saying anything. You obviously cannot see the damage already done from this ideology being allowed to dictate treatment. Like I showed even the NHS and the Royal College of General Practitioners have already said that its an ideology that can cause harm and we need to keep things based on the facts.

Like I also showed how young people are identifying as the opposite sex not because they are transgender but because they have some other mental disorder. So you are saying if anyone just claims to be the opposite sex we should automatically believe them and treat them as the opposite sex based on their own subjective feelings, without any science.

Its like someone claiming they are a 6 foot African American 20 year old when they are a 5 foot Australian who is 60 years old. Do we suddenly just accept they self perceived ideology just because they said so. Or do we use the science to determine what is the facts. You can't magically change your age, or height and you can't magically change your sex.

 

[Kylie]

So what if the doctor refuses to do it on the grounds that its unscientific. Say he refuses to do a hyterectomy or remove a males genitals because he thinks this is doing harm and against his hippocratic oath. What about psychologists like Dr Petersen who disagrees with using gender pronouns because it is compelled speech which is a denial of freedom of though and speech.

No he was making the same argument as Petersen. Why should anyone be compelled to use someone elses ideologically self described and proclaimed language when it has no basis is reality. As Petersen says he will address someone as he percieves them. So if a 6 foot bearded man is presented then he sees that person as a man. In reality they are a man and that is what the science states and has done since mammals occupied the earth.

Now a very small minority has come along and are dictating how people should think and what language they should use based on a personal subjective idea of reality. That is compeleld speech and this has never been imposed on people in the history of any western nation. It is a equivelant to a dictatorship.

No the science is what keeps everything in reality and stops crazy ideas being promoted as science. Otherwise we can be saying anything. You obviously cannot see the damage already done from this ideology being allowed to dictate treatment. Like I showed even the NHS and the Royal College of General Practitioners have already said that its an ideology that can cause harm and we need to keep things based on the facts.

Like I also showed how young people are identifying as the opposite sex not because they are transgender but because they have some other mental disorder. So you are saying if anyone just claims to be the opposite sex we should automatically believe them and treat them as the opposite sex based on their own subjective feelings, without any science.

Its like someone claiming they are a 6 foot African American 20 year old when they are a 5 foot Australian who is 60 years old. Do we suddenly just accept they self perceived ideology just because they said so. Or do we use the science to determine what is the facts. You can't magically change your age, or height and you can't magically change your sex.

You don't seem interested in a rational discussion. The scientific evidence shows that supporting trans people helps them, and denying support to trans people harms them. Also, please support your claim that a trans person's sense of gender identity has no basis in reality. You're just picking an ideology, finding quasi-science to back up that ideology and claiming it is real science, or or misinterpreting real science to support it, and then claiming you are correct. But everything you have said is nothing more than trying to claim that a bunch of old cis guys know more about being young and trans than the young trans people. You're just pushing your opinions onto others.

 

[Strathos]

I would go on, but all I see is that you are attempting to find "science" to support your view that medical professionals should be allowed to discriminate against trans people. You may even believe yourself that the "science" is on your side, but at the end of the day, you are still saying that trans people have less right to be treated how the wish to be treated than the people who think that they are wrong.

Does everyone deserve "to be treated how they wish to be treated"? What if someone is suicidal and wants to be killed? What if someone wants to be treated like a king who owns slaves? Etc.

 

[Kylie]

Does everyone deserve "to be treated how they wish to be treated"? What if someone is suicidal and wants to be killed? What if someone wants to be treated like a king who owns slaves? Etc.

Are you suggesting that being trans is the same as being suicidal? That's a very troubling position to take.

 

[stevevw]

You don't seem interested in a rational discussion.

Thats the most ironic thing I have ever heard. All I have been doing is speaking rational and supporting what I am saying with rational science. It is others who are not supporting their claims and using emotional and ideological claims that are not supported by science as I have already shown.

The scientific evidence shows that supporting trans people helps them, and denying support to trans people harms them.

Yes but as some have stated there can be a short term relief which is understandable with some treatments but the long term science doesnt always show they are helped especially with surgery where suicide rates actually increased after sex change surgery.
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

The other thing to consider is that the treatments suggested to help (hormone therapy) like puberty blockers and cross sex therapy have risks. So it may give some short term help but may end up making things worse.

So how do we determine whether a person is Trans and what sort of help we give. As I have shown based on the science some are basing the help on an ideology that is not helping but harming. We don't use an ideology to determine diagnosis and treatment for other conditions so why is this only happening with gender dysphoria.

For example some say not doing anything initially by having a wait and see approach is the best. This is the position of the Royal College of Psychiatrists’. (One that suggests not rushing into affirmation treatments). They also believe that more evidence is needed with treatments so they are not committed to any treatments that some gender clinics and activists claim are OK and push young people into using.

Position Statement on supporting transgender and gender-diverse people
The College acknowledges the need for better evidence on the outcomes of pre-pubertal children who present as transgender or gender-diverse, whether or not they enter treatment. Until that evidence is available, the College believes that a watch and wait policy, which does not place any pressure on children to live or behave in accordance with their sex assigned at birth or to move rapidly to gender transition, may be an appropriate course of action when young people first present.
https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf

It is important to use the science to determine the facts when working out how to help young people experiencing gender dysphoria. As I have shown many gender clinics and trans activists are happy to push trans affirming treatments such as puberty blockers and cross sex hormone therapy and even claiming it should be done at a very young age. They have made claims like puberty blockers are completely reversible and never mention the risks with other treatments.

But as I have also shown that reputable sources like the NHS and the RCGP have stated that puberty blockers are not reversible and that there are unknown risks and according to the science even known risks where tests on animals have shown puberty blockers can cause brain damage IE

A reduction in long-term spatial memory persists after discontinuation of peripubertal GnRH agonist treatment in sheep
Peri pubertal GnRHa impaired long-term spatial memory.
This impairment was not reversed after discontinuing GnRHa-treatment.
A reduction in long-term spatial memory persists after discontinuation of peripubertal GnRH agonist treatment in sheep - ScienceDirect

The NHS has also changed its advice about cross sex hormone treatment being something that can help and make a Trans young person feel better. They no longer recommend it and say they are looking into the effects of cross sex hormonal therapy. So this is an admission that there are unknown risks and they are hesitant to recommend this treatment.

In the meantime Tran’s activists and other gender clinics are still pushing these treatments and putting children and young people at risk. So you tell me who is pushing an ideology and who is agreeing with what I am saying about the science and what the facts are regarding treatment for Tran’s kids.

Also you have to remember as pointed out that 85% of children with trans feelings grow out of it. So if we rush them into Trans affirming treatments like puberty blockers aren’t we taking a big risk that the majority don’t need it and we are therefore harming them for nothing?

The other factor to consider is even if young people have persistent Tran’s feeling that doesn’t mean that we should then transition them. The science also shows that the majority of Tran’s kids have other comorbid disorders like autism, childhood trauma.

There has been a massive increase in trans feelings especially with young females. Some say this is a sudden onset caused by a contagion rather than a true trans identity issue. Young females experience a lot of body dysmorphia and are more supceptable to being influenced into trends such as self harm or diet problems and may need therapy to help them rather than being transitioned.

The cluster effect: Is self-harming contagious?
The cluster effect: Is self-harming contagious?
Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria
Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria

So not all trans feeling are really being trans so investigation is needed before any sudden rush to trans affirming treatmnets. Maybe having some therapy may help alleviate their Trans feelings young people have for various reasons. But many young people who have been pushed into affirmative treatments have had regrets so this is another reason to be careful about the activists and gender clinics claims. As mentioned there has been a 4,500% increase in young people especially females having trans feelings but they all cannot be assumed to be trans and pushing them into treatments will only harm them.

Hundreds of trans people regret changing their gender, says trans activist
Hundreds of trans people regret changing their gender, says trans activist

The last factor to consider in not automatically pushing affirmative treatments is that the long term studies show the treatments don’t really work as already mentioned. When you consider that the affirming treatments are only changing the body and not addressing the problems with the mind then this seems like a Band-Aid solution.

So there is a lot of think about which justifies not just automatically assuming Trans affirmative treatments are the first go to solution for gender dysphoria.

Also, please support your claim that a trans person's sense of gender identity has no basis in reality.

The dictionary meaning of reality is
The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

The criteria for determining male and female according to Trans ideology is self-identification, a feeling of being male or female. That has no basis in fact and therefore reality because its an idea or feeling and not how things actually are objectively outside the person. We measure reality for everything objectively by science and use experts. The science for determining male and female is based on biology. This shows there are only 2 genders male and female and that a person cannot become the opposite sex by just feeling they are.

Dr Debra Soh is a neuroscientist who specializes in gender, sex and sexual orientation. She explains that 99% of people’s gender is biological sex and biological sex is determined by gametes (sperm or ovary) and there are no intermediate gametes.

Dr. Debra Soh Debunks Claims of a Gender Spectrum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHY24wtdUxM&ab_channel=JREClips
The Reality of Transgender & Gender Science - Dr. Debra Soh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY5eOHnQU5A&ab_channel=SCNR

You're just picking an ideology, finding quasi-science to back up that ideology and claiming it is real science,

As shown above its not an ideology but real science agreed by 99% of exopert scientists in the field. Lay people determine male and female by what comes after the gametes but as with all mammals being male and female is determined at the beginning in meiosis where gametes are formed sperm and ovary (male and female).

or or misinterpreting real science to support it, and then claiming you are correct.

It is real science. The unreal science comes from trans activists who can never back their claims about the ideology they push.

But everything you have said is nothing more than trying to claim that a bunch of old cis guys know more about being young and trans than the young trans people. You're just pushing your opinions onto others.

lol, just because I showed a video of Petersen who happens to be a guy whos little older you now make the logical fallacy that everyone who opposes the ideology is an older male and they dont know what they are talking about. But how do you know all the other articles I have posted are from older guys. In fact if you go back and check they are mostly from young females like Dr Soh.

Here is a video from Petersen once again (sorry) but I respect his knowledge. He explains the way humans behave very well. In this video he is explaining the trans and gender ideologies and how they originate and form. Its very interesting from a psychological perspective. He doesnt side with anyone but rather explains things by the science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKd_DjBl7gc&ab_channel=BenShapiro[/QUOTE]

 

[Strathos]

Are you suggesting that being trans is the same as being suicidal? That's a very troubling position to take.

No, I'm asking you a question. Does everyone deserve to be treated the way they want to be treated?

 

[Kylie]

Thats the most ironic thing I have ever heard. All I have been doing is speaking rational and supporting what I am saying with rational science. It is others who are not supporting their claims and using emotional and ideological claims that are not supported by science as I have already shown. Yes but as some have stated there can be a short term relief which is understandable with some treatments but the long term science doesnt always show they are helped especially with surgery where suicide rates actually increased after sex change surgery.
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

The other thing to consider is that the treatments suggested to help (hormone therapy) like puberty blockers and cross sex therapy have risks. So it may give some short term help but may end up making things worse.

So how do we determine whether a person is Trans and what sort of help we give. As I have shown based on the science some are basing the help on an ideology that is not helping but harming. We don't use an ideology to determine diagnosis and treatment for other conditions so why is this only happening with gender dysphoria.

For example some say not doing anything initially by having a wait and see approach is the best. This is the position of the Royal College of Psychiatrists’. (One that suggests not rushing into affirmation treatments). They also believe that more evidence is needed with treatments so they are not committed to any treatments that some gender clinics and activists claim are OK and push young people into using.

Position Statement on supporting transgender and gender-diverse people
The College acknowledges the need for better evidence on the outcomes of pre-pubertal children who present as transgender or gender-diverse, whether or not they enter treatment. Until that evidence is available, the College believes that a watch and wait policy, which does not place any pressure on children to live or behave in accordance with their sex assigned at birth or to move rapidly to gender transition, may be an appropriate course of action when young people first present.
https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf

It is important to use the science to determine the facts when working out how to help young people experiencing gender dysphoria. As I have shown many gender clinics and trans activists are happy to push trans affirming treatments such as puberty blockers and cross sex hormone therapy and even claiming it should be done at a very young age. They have made claims like puberty blockers are completely reversible and never mention the risks with other treatments.

But as I have also shown that reputable sources like the NHS and the RCGP have stated that puberty blockers are not reversible and that there are unknown risks and according to the science even known risks where tests on animals have shown puberty blockers can cause brain damage IE

A reduction in long-term spatial memory persists after discontinuation of peripubertal GnRH agonist treatment in sheep
Peri pubertal GnRHa impaired long-term spatial memory.
This impairment was not reversed after discontinuing GnRHa-treatment.
A reduction in long-term spatial memory persists after discontinuation of peripubertal GnRH agonist treatment in sheep - ScienceDirect

The NHS has also changed its advice about cross sex hormone treatment being something that can help and make a Trans young person feel better. They no longer recommend it and say they are looking into the effects of cross sex hormonal therapy. So this is an admission that there are unknown risks and they are hesitant to recommend this treatment.

In the meantime Tran’s activists and other gender clinics are still pushing these treatments and putting children and young people at risk. So you tell me who is pushing an ideology and who is agreeing with what I am saying about the science and what the facts are regarding treatment for Tran’s kids.

Also you have to remember as pointed out that 85% of children with trans feelings grow out of it. So if we rush them into Trans affirming treatments like puberty blockers aren’t we taking a big risk that the majority don’t need it and we are therefore harming them for nothing?

The other factor to consider is even if young people have persistent Tran’s feeling that doesn’t mean that we should then transition them. The science also shows that the majority of Tran’s kids have other comorbid disorders like autism, childhood trauma.

There has been a massive increase in trans feelings especially with young females. Some say this is a sudden onset caused by a contagion rather than a true trans identity issue. Young females experience a lot of body dysmorphia and are more supceptable to being influenced into trends such as self harm or diet problems and may need therapy to help them rather than being transitioned.

The cluster effect: Is self-harming contagious?
The cluster effect: Is self-harming contagious?
Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria
Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria

So not all trans feeling are really being trans so investigation is needed before any sudden rush to trans affirming treatmnets. Maybe having some therapy may help alleviate their Trans feelings young people have for various reasons. But many young people who have been pushed into affirmative treatments have had regrets so this is another reason to be careful about the activists and gender clinics claims. As mentioned there has been a 4,500% increase in young people especially females having trans feelings but they all cannot be assumed to be trans and pushing them into treatments will only harm them.

Hundreds of trans people regret changing their gender, says trans activist
Hundreds of trans people regret changing their gender, says trans activist

The last factor to consider in not automatically pushing affirmative treatments is that the long term studies show the treatments don’t really work as already mentioned. When you consider that the affirming treatments are only changing the body and not addressing the problems with the mind then this seems like a Band-Aid solution.

So there is a lot of think about which justifies not just automatically assuming Trans affirmative treatments are the first go to solution for gender dysphoria.

The dictionary meaning of reality is
The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

The criteria for determining male and female according to Trans ideology is self-identification, a feeling of being male or female. That has no basis in fact and therefore reality because its an idea or feeling and not how things actually are objectively outside the person. We measure reality for everything objectively by science and use experts. The science for determining male and female is based on biology. This shows there are only 2 genders male and female and that a person cannot become the opposite sex by just feeling they are.

Dr Debra Soh is a neuroscientist who specializes in gender, sex and sexual orientation. She explains that 99% of people’s gender is biological sex and biological sex is determined by gametes (sperm or ovary) and there are no intermediate gametes.

Dr. Debra Soh Debunks Claims of a Gender Spectrum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHY24wtdUxM&ab_channel=JREClips
The Reality of Transgender & Gender Science - Dr. Debra Soh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY5eOHnQU5A&ab_channel=SCNR

As shown above its not an ideology but real science agreed by 99% of exopert scientists in the field. Lay people determine male and female by what comes after the gametes but as with all mammals being male and female is determined at the beginning in meiosis where gametes are formed sperm and ovary (male and female). It is real science. The unreal science comes from trans activists who can never back their claims about the ideology they push. lol, just because I showed a video of Petersen who happens to be a guy whos little older you now make the logical fallacy that everyone who opposes the ideology is an older male and they dont know what they are talking about. But how do you know all the other articles I have posted are from older guys. In fact if you go back and check they are mostly from young females like Dr Soh.

Here is a video from Petersen once again (sorry) but I respect his knowledge. He explains the way humans behave very well. In this video he is explaining the trans and gender ideologies and how they originate and form. Its very interesting from a psychological perspective. He doesnt side with anyone but rather explains things by the science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKd_DjBl7gc&ab_channel=BenShapiro

You're just using science to support your ideology. Like I said, not interested in a rational debate. If you were, you'd listen to the trans people themselves.

 

[Kylie]

No, I'm asking you a question. Does everyone deserve to be treated the way they want to be treated?

And you're trying to muddy the waters by bringing up suicidal people and egotistical jerks. We're not talking about them, we're talking about trans people.

 

[stevevw]

You're just using science to support your ideology. Like I said, not interested in a rational debate. If you were, you'd listen to the trans people themselves.

I don’t understand what you mean that I am using science to support my ideology. My position is the science and therefore it’s not an ideology. Do you think the scientist that are experts in psychology, psychiatry, neuroscience, biology and specialize is sex and gender base their opinions on an ideology?

Like I said I am happy for people who have Tran’s feelings (gender dysphoria) to have any treatment they want so long as it’s proven to be safe. At the moment we have 2 opinions on what is safe and the right treatment to give. On the one side there are those who are all for pushing and even rushing transitioning affirmative treatments regardless of the risks and unknowns and regardless that most grow out of it.

On the other we have those who say wait and see and we are not sure about rushing into gender affirmative treatments like puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery because we just don’t know what the long term risks and harm that may happen. Some research shows there is harm to brain, vital organs, blood and bone development. We also see that diagnosing Trans is not easy as there are many other disorders that can be mistaken for trans feelings.

So I am willing to listen to Tran’s people and I also have worked with them and supported them. But it’s not an easy fix. We can empathize with them and acknowledge their difficulties. But it’s hard to recommend any specific treatments at the moment when the science is unsure of the harm or that there actually is harm.

So what do you think we should do? Are you saying we should just go ahead with affirmative treatments regardless of the risks? What is your solution? All I know is I would rather listen to the experts than those who base treatment on an ideology that has no scientific support.

 

[Kylie]

I don’t understand what you mean that I am using science to support my ideology. My position is the science and therefore it’s not an ideology. Do you think the scientist that are experts in psychology, psychiatry, neuroscience, biology and specialize is sex and gender base their opinions on an ideology?

No, I am saying that scientific information can be easily misunderstood, and you are misunderstanding it because you have personal views that drive you towards a certain conclusion. You are biased towards certain conclusions. And since you interpret the science as supporting your conclusions - be it either through your own misunderstanding, or a deliberate deception by others who are feeding you limited information in an effort to distort the truth - you are conclusing the science supports your ideology.

Like I said I am happy for people who have Tran’s feelings (gender dysphoria) to have any treatment they want so long as it’s proven to be safe.

And you get to decide for them what is safe, of course. Once again, you think you have the right to make that decision. Or the doctors. Or some administrators sitting in an office. Anyone EXCEPT the trans people who are crying out for something.

 

[SilverBear]

Thats the most ironic thing I have ever heard. All I have been doing is speaking rational and supporting what I am saying with rational science. It is others who are not supporting their claims and using emotional and ideological claims that are not supported by science as I have already shown. Yes but as some have stated there can be a short term relief which is understandable with some treatments but the long term science doesnt always show they are helped especially with surgery where suicide rates actually increased after sex change surgery.
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

the author of this study also says:

"Of course trans medical and psychological care is efficacious. A 2010 meta-analysis confirmed by studies thereafter show that medical gender confirming interventions reduces gender dysphoria."

"The aim of trans medical interventions is to bring a trans person’s body more in line with their gender identity, resulting in the measurable diminishment of their gender dysphoria. However trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.
What we’ve found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren’t enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well. That’s what improved care means."



As for the claim that suicide rates actually increased after sex change surgery.
in the control group of Dhejne's 11 year study there were two suicides. How many suicides were there among the 324 sex-reassigned persons of the study?


Three.