Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

[VirOptimus]

and no one ever claimed there was.

that doesn't change the fact that
Eye color isn't 100% in monozygotic twins
Right/left handed isn't 100% in monozygotic twins
Sickle cell anemia isn't 100% in monozygotic twins
Blood type isn't 100% in monozygotic twins
showing your claim that "The results need to be 100% of the time to verify a genetic connection" is is based on a disregard for science.


in the meantime - still waiting for you to provide all those citations.

Wall of text with the exact same arguments he has used in the whole thread incoming.

 

[stevevw]

Wall of text with the exact same arguments he has used in the whole thread incoming.

And explain how the information is wrong. The reason why its detailed is because I research. I don't just talk off the top of my head.

 

[VirOptimus]

And explain how the information is wrong. The reason why its detailed is because I research. I don't just talk off the top of my head.

Your posting history says otherwise.

 

[stevevw]

Your posting history says otherwise.

Another logical fallacy. Even the fact that I have links to support what I say shows I cannot just pull that evidence out of thin air. It takes time and effort to research. If it was just off the top of my head then they would not support my claims.

As pointed out earlier, you dont even have a sentence of evidence to provide let along a wall of text. All you have is fallacies on association with religion and race. So I guess your posting history also precedes you.

 

[VirOptimus]

Another logical fallacy. Even the fact that I have links to support what I say shows I cannot just pull that evidence out of thin air. It takes time and effort to research. If it was just off the top of my head then they would not support my claims.

As pointed out earlier, you dont even have a sentence of evidence to provide let along a wall of text. All you have is fallacies on association with religion and race. So I guess your posting history also precedes you.

No, you decide what the prefered answer is and then seek out links to support that conclusion.

 

[stevevw]

nothing to do with your claim

your original claim was: "Any medical professional who suggests or tries to persue this line of treatment risks losing their reputation and jobs because radicals will hunt them down and claim trans or homophobia and call them bigots. "

The other links I posted were related to my cliam. Remember the claim is that trans activists are dictating the narrative and policy in society about how we should see sex and gender and treat them. So if activists are making a noise, false allegations and claiming descrimination don't you think people will be scared to speak out for fear of being labelled bigot or losing their jobs and therefore keep quiet and conform.

See thats the tactic. To claim that if you don't agree and go along with our ideology your being cruel and causing trans kids to suicide. So go along with anything we say even if it will cause more harm and prbably lead to more suicide in the end. But trans activists don''t care about what the experts say. They just want their ideology to spread. Its more about politics than care. Anyway the following links certainly should satify you criteria in supporting my claims.

GnRHa (‘Puberty Blockers’) and Cross Sex Hormones for Children and Adolescents: Informed Consent, Personhood and Freedom of Expression
“There is clear evidence that those expressing ethical or political doubts about clinical routines, which are predicated on a gender-affirmative approach, which prioritizes the diagnosis of gender dysphoria over psycho-social formulations case by case, are being constrained or silenced.”
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20502877.2020.1796257?journalCode=ynbi2
NHS child gender clinic: Staff concerns 'shut down'
Staff at England's only children's NHS gender clinic say concerns about patient welfare were shut down, leaked documents reveal.
In June 2020 the BBC reported that clinicians had claimed child protection and safeguarding concerns were "shut down". “staff allege they were discouraged by GIDS Director Polly Carmichael from going to see the Trust's safeguarding lead, and from referring cases to social services.”
NHS child gender clinic: Staff concerns 'shut down'

The question needs to be asked who is sliencing and shutting down medical professionals. The obvious answer is activists who push the ideology. They are putting pressure on professionals and the government in the name of rights.

The most concerning effects of the tactics of social punishment trans activists are using is on the mental health and medical professionals who are obligated to provide the best care to all of their clients and to communicate accurate information to them, their parents, and the public.
In fifty years of medicine, I have not witnessed such reluctance to express an opinion among my colleagues…I conducted a straw poll of paediatricians whom I know. Many advised me to be very careful to appear neutral, and not to quote them.
Gender Dysphoria and Surgical Abuse – Quadrant Online
Gender Dysphoria and Surgical Abuse
The most well-known example is the firing of Dr. Ken Zucker from CAMH (Canadian public health)
Lies are often spread about people who question Tran’s activism. In Zucker’s case this resulted in a lawsuit that he won. CAMH reaches settlement with former head of gender identity clinic. Mental health and addiction teaching hospital to pay him $586,000 in damages, legal fees, interest
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/camh-settlement-former-head-gender-identity-clinic-1.4854015

James Caspian is a supporter of LGBT issues and one of the better known experts on transgender issues. Yet even he was shut down when he wanted to research the problem of transition regret and people seeking sex change operation reversals.
Basically Bath University stopped him because they said the Transactivist would not like it.
Now thats a direct admission from a mainstream University about how much power trans activists have in controlling the narrative, attacking people, ruining their lives and keeping things shut down because of speaking the truth and facts.
University 'turned down politically incorrect transgender research'

Tania Marshall is an applied psychology professional and expert on autism. There is a strong connection between autism and gender dysphoria (see here and here and here). She has received harassment and death threats for expressing concerns over rapid onset cases of gender dysphoria.
THREATS & CENSORSHIP RESULT IF TRANS ACTIVISTS DEMANDS ARE NOT MET REGARDING CHILDREN & TEENS & GD — Gender Health Query

Dr Lucy Griffin, mentions how health professionals are afraid to speak out because of the potential attacks from activists on them with lies destroying their lives.
She attended a women’s meeting on the issue in Bristol last Thursday, which descended into violence after 30 masked trans protesters attempted to storm the venue.
Dr Griffin revealed that she is not the only doctor worried about the ease with which young patients can get transgender medicines.
But she said that many other medical staff are ‘running scared’ because they fear accusations of bigotry, of being out of touch or, at worst, practising ‘conversion therapy’ on transgender people
NHS sex change drugs are putting hundreds of children at risk each year | Daily Mail Online

Another typical example of Tran’s activist attacking good science as being transphobic and trying to shut it down. The activist attacks research from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH. Yet WPATH are on the Trans side, so activists are attacking their own supporters if the information opposes their ideology.
‘And then a step to the right’: the 2018 WPATH Officers Election

Another tactic trans activists use is smearing professionals with false allegation to destroy their reputations and shut them down.
Trans activists also attempted to smear him with false stories. This tactic goes back to the beginnings of trans activism and was used against Blanchard, Bailey, and Dreger.

Dr Debra Soh is a scientist and free speech advocate who speaks out on controversial topics to the media and on her own videos and podcasts. She often expresses dismay at the possible harms she feels could result for the gender affirmative model and censorship in academia. This position puts her in the company of other scientist who hold politically unpopular opinions.
A. Past extremist behavior of activists: the beginning of a pattern
This section contains the early examples in the burgeoning trans movement of what typically happens to anyone who does not promote the exact message trans activists demand. The scenarios in these examples are not random incidences. They have become the norm:
THREATS & CENSORSHIP RESULT IF TRANS ACTIVISTS DEMANDS ARE NOT MET REGARDING CHILDREN & TEENS & GD — Gender Health Query

Need I say more

Citation?

I think the above covers this. This contains examples of how these medical professionals expressed a view that disagreed with the gender affirming ideology that activists have been pushing. That is why they were attacked. The articles point out that many keep quiet and go along with the ideology for fear of being labelled trans phobie and losing their jobs. So this supports what I have said IE that they have to pretend that a man is really a woman in medical situations, that any child who expresses confusion about gender is transgender and gender affirming treatment should be recommended rather than investigating other cuases.

School counsellors and mental health service providers are bowing to pressures from ‘highly politicised’ transgender groups to affirm children’s beliefs that they were born the wrong sex, a leading expert has warned.
Politicised trans groups put children at risk, says expert
Rather than enabling discussion that would help to ensure best practice, trans rights groups and many politicians have instead made it difficult for experts and other stakeholders to raise concerns. As Dr Entwistle and Prof Pilgrim write,
“There is clear evidence that those expressing ethical or political doubts about clinical routines, which are predicated on a gender-affirmative approach, which prioritizes the diagnosis of gender dysphoria over psycho-social formulations case by case, are being constrained or silenced.”
In June 2020 the BBC reported that clinicians had claimed child protection and safeguarding concerns were "shut down".
NHS child gender clinic: Staff concerns 'shut down'

I think that just about settles it. No more to be said.

 

[stevevw]

No, you decide what the prefered answer is and then seek out links to support that conclusion.

If that was the case then it would be hard to find links matching my personal beliefs. How is it that there are so many articles that match what I am saying and nearly every single one is not based on any religion or religious view but actually the opposite scientific facts.

 

[SilverBear]

The other links I posted were related to my cliam. Remember the claim is that trans activists are dictating the narrative and policy in society about how we should see sex and gender and treat them. So if activists are making a noise, false allegations and claiming descrimination don't you think people will be scared to speak out for fear of being labelled bigot or losing their jobs and therefore keep quiet and conform.

what i think is you can't back up your claim "Any medical professional who suggests or tries to persue this line of treatment risks losing their reputation and jobs because radicals will hunt them down and claim trans or homophobia and call them bigots. "

See thats the tactic. To claim that if you don't agree and go along with our ideology your being cruel and causing trans kids to suicide. So go along with anything we say even if it will cause more harm and prbably lead to more suicide in the end.

What the evidence shows is that trans kids who have loving supportive and protective family are far less likely to have suicidal ideation much less attempt to suicide. That support is has nothing to do with any sort of medical intervention. Would you call loving protective and supportive family is an ideology that some mysterious cabal is strong arming people into being?

But trans activists don''t care about what the experts say.

hate based statement

They just want their ideology to spread.

hate based statement

Its more about politics than care.

hate based statement

I think that just about settles it. No more to be said.

none of these address your original claim

 

[VirOptimus]

If that was the case then it would be hard to find links matching my personal beliefs. How is it that there are so many articles that match what I am saying and nearly every single one is not based on any religion or religious view but actually the opposite scientific facts.

You mostly quote crackpots and no, the science do not support you here (or in any other debate I have seen you take part in).

 

[stevevw]

You mostly quote crackpots and no, the science do not support you here (or in any other debate I have seen you take part in).

That is not the case. I have mainly linked reptable sources. tell how are these crackpots IE

The National Health Service (England). This is the government run health service who are responsible for the care of the public in England. They have no bias and as a government have to support the rights of all. Yet they agree with the so called crackpots and myself that trans ideology is unscientific. Many gender affirming clinics claim puberty blockers are harmless and reversible but now the NHS has realised that this is false and have changed their advice on a number of claims made by transgender ideology.

GONE is the claim that puberty blockers are considered to be fully reversible:
The new updated section on the NHS website is an improvement on older versions, the information is more accurate and fact-based, there is less ideology and more care is taken with language.
Are puberty blockers reversible? The NHS no longer says so

The NSH no longer supports the ideology that hormone therapy is safe and now acknowledge what I have said that there are unknown risks associated with transgender affirming treatments. But gender clinics still refer many young people to hormone treatments.

It’s also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children’s bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.”
Are puberty blockers reversible? The NHS no longer says so

What about the Royal College of General Practitioners, are they also crackpots because they agree with what I have said as well. Here is the RCGP Position statement on transgender ideology:

“There is a significant lack of robust, comprehensive evidence around the outcomes, side effects and unintended consequences of such treatments for people with gender dysphoria, particularly children and young people, which prevents GPs from helping patients and their families in making an informed decision.”

“The promotion and funding of independent research into the effects of various forms of interventions (including ‘wait and see’ policies) for gender dysphoria is urgently needed, to ensure there is a robust evidence base which GPs and other healthcare professionals can rely upon when advising patients and their families. There are currently significant gaps in evidence for nearly all aspects of clinical management of gender dysphoria in youth. Urgent investment in research on the impacts of treatments for children and young people is needed.”
Are puberty blockers reversible? The NHS no longer says so

This is what I have been sayibng all along. Transgender affirming treatments that push children into taking puberty blockers and young teens into taking cross sex hormones has unknown risks and in fact some research shows that it affects a childs developing brain and bones permantely let alone the fact that kids are made permantely sterile and the risks of cancer. Yet trans activists still want to push this treatment and claim they care for children. Who are the crackpots then. I would much rarther believe someone like the RCGP than someone who makes unsupported claims.

 

[VirOptimus]

That is not the case. I have mainly linked reptable sources. tell how are these crackpots IE

The National Health Service (England). This is the government run health service who are responsible for the care of the public in England. They have no bias and as a government have to support the rights of all. Yet they agree with the so called crackpots and myself that trans ideology is unscientific. Many gender affirming clinics claim puberty blockers are harmless and reversible but now the NHS has realised that this is false and have changed their advice on a number of claims made by transgender ideology.

GONE is the claim that puberty blockers are considered to be fully reversible:
The new updated section on the NHS website is an improvement on older versions, the information is more accurate and fact-based, there is less ideology and more care is taken with language.
Are puberty blockers reversible? The NHS no longer says so

The NSH no longer supports the ideology that hormone therapy is safe and now acknowledge what I have said that there are unknown risks associated with transgender affirming treatments. But gender clinics still refer many young people to hormone treatments.

It’s also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children’s bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.”
Are puberty blockers reversible? The NHS no longer says so

What about the Royal College of General Practitioners, are they also crackpots because they agree with what I have said as well. Here is the RCGP Position statement on transgender ideology:

“There is a significant lack of robust, comprehensive evidence around the outcomes, side effects and unintended consequences of such treatments for people with gender dysphoria, particularly children and young people, which prevents GPs from helping patients and their families in making an informed decision.”

“The promotion and funding of independent research into the effects of various forms of interventions (including ‘wait and see’ policies) for gender dysphoria is urgently needed, to ensure there is a robust evidence base which GPs and other healthcare professionals can rely upon when advising patients and their families. There are currently significant gaps in evidence for nearly all aspects of clinical management of gender dysphoria in youth. Urgent investment in research on the impacts of treatments for children and young people is needed.”
Are puberty blockers reversible? The NHS no longer says so

This is what I have been sayibng all along. Transgender affirming treatments that push children into taking puberty blockers and young teens into taking cross sex hormones has unknown risks and in fact some research shows that it affects a childs developing brain and bones permantely let alone the fact that kids are made permantely sterile and the risks of cancer. Yet trans activists still want to push this treatment and claim they care for children. Who are the crackpots then. I would much rarther believe someone like the RCGP than someone who makes unsupported claims.

Tl;dr.

 

[stevevw]

Tl;dr.

Still havent answered the question. Are these sources crack pots or not.

 

[Ringo84]

Good on Francis. I'm not Catholic; I'm (newly) Methodist, but it's past time for the church to acknowledge that gay people exist and aren't going to suddenly be raptured. Either we treat them with the human respect they deserve, or the church will continue to flounder.
Ringo

 

[VirOptimus]

Still havent answered the question. Are these sources crack pots or not.

Brevity is a virtue, I wont read your pointless wall of texts.

 

[stevevw]

Brevity is a virtue, I wont read your pointless wall of texts.

Thats an amazing admission. You disagree with what I say even though you havent read it. wow.

So here is a short and concise breakdown of what I said.

The Royal College of General Practitioners agrees with what I have said that gender affirming treatment has no scientific basis. Are they crackpots.

 

[Kylie]

Thats an amazing admission. You disagree with what I say even though you havent read it. wow.

So here is a short and concise breakdown of what I said.

The Royal College of General Practitioners agrees with what I have said that gender affirming treatment has no scientific basis. Are they crackpots.

Actually, it seems to me that they said it may not be fully reversible, and they also said there aren't many studies on the long term effects of things like hormonal treatments.

I don't see anywhere in your post where you claimed that there's little to no evidence that gender affirming treatment has any benefit.

Also, when you don't post the actual source, but instead post an article about the original source and that article is from what appears to be an anti-trans website (despite their claims to the contrary*), I hardly think that what you've provided is a good source.

* Their website claims that kids are not in a position to know if they are trans or not, yet research indicates that they are. Young Trans Children Know Who They Are

 

[stevevw]

Actually, it seems to me that they said it may not be fully reversible, and they also said there aren't many studies on the long term effects of things like hormonal treatments.

Isnt that another way of agreeing with what I just said. IE I said the article about the RCGP says they claimed there is no scientific basis for transgender affirming treatments. You said the same thing IE there are not many studies on the long term effects of thing like gender hormonal treatments.

Gender hormonal treatment is gender affirming treatment and if there are no or little studies on the long term effects of hormonal treatments then there is no scientific support for it. That is what the RCGP are saying that because there is little studies there is an unknown risk because there is nothing to confirm using the treatment in the first place. Look at the testing for other treatments, it is tested until the risks and benefits are known before it is used. But some gender clinics are promoting it, making claims it is OK and then using it on young children depite the unknowns.

I don't see anywhere in your post where you claimed that there's little to no evidence that gender affirming treatment has any benefit.

Not sure what you are saying.

Also, when you don't post the actual source, but instead post an article about the original source and that article is from what appears to be an anti-trans website (despite their claims to the contrary*), I hardly think that what you've provided is a good source.

First this is a logical fallacy of an (ad hominum) that the claim os wrong because of who said it rather than confirming the claim. Second the site is not an anti trans site, which is another logical fallacy (Hasty Generalization Fallacy). That because someone disagrees with the trans ideology they must be wrong or be associated with some anti trans hateful group rather than just promoting the facts to help people involve understand things.

Third the site did have a link to the original RCGP article here.
. https://www.rcgp.org.uk/-/media/Fil...-care-position-statement-june-2019.ashx?la=en

* Their website claims that kids are not in a position to know if they are trans or not, yet research indicates that they are. Young Trans Children Know Who They Are

This article does not disprove your claim. It only says that the very tiny number of kids who go on to transition know who they are at a young age. That is a circular argument and another fallacy for your claim. It is confirming the very people who were actually trans (those who actually transitioned) as knowing they were trans. Of course that will be the case.

But the article I posted is talking about children in general don't really know whether they are trans and true candidates for transition. Considering that around 85% don't go onto transition this proves the case that despite them expressing confusion about their gender they were not truely transgender. If we use the logic from the article you posted then any kid who expressed confusion about their gender at a young age must be trans.

Oh wait a minute thats what transgender ideology believes anyway and that is the point. Trans activists promote pushing kids into transitioning which has unknown risks because the science is not there when they are merely confused about their gender and going through a normal part of development. That amounts to harming children.

 

[Kylie]

Isnt that another way of agreeing with what I just said. IE I said the article about the RCGP says they claimed there is no scientific basis for transgender affirming treatments. You said the same thing IE there are not many studies on the long term effects of thing like gender hormonal treatments.

Saying that something may not be reversible is not the same thing as saying there is no scientific basis.

Not sure what you are saying.

I thought it was quite clear.

I said that nothing that you provided in that post shows there's no evidence to support the benefit that trans people get from it.

 

[stevevw]

nothing to do with your claim

your original claim was: "Any medical professional who suggests or tries to persue this line of treatment risks losing their reputation and jobs because radicals will hunt them down and claim trans or homophobia and call them bigots. "

So don't the following quotes match those claims

The most concerning effects of the tactics of social punishment Trans activists are using is on the mental health and medical professionals
Gender Dysphoria and Surgical Abuse – Quadrant Online

What do you think the tactic of social punishment involves? Would that be to publically destroy people’s reputation and cause them to lose their jobs like in the following example?

Lies are often spread about people who question Tran’s activism. The most well-known example is the firing of Dr. Ken Zucker from CAMH (Canadian public health). In Zucker’s case this resulted in a lawsuit that he won.
So Trans activists spread lies about him that got him sacked for not supporting trans ideology. Doesn’t this support my claim that any professional who tries to pursue an opposing line of treatment risks losing their job? I’d say this fits exactly.

What about this one

Dr Tania Marshall has received harassment and death threats for expressing concerns over rapid onset cases of gender dysphoria.

Does a death threat count as Tran’s activists hunting down someone for an opposing view and makes a person scared about speaking up.

Citation?

Think about this and you dont need a citation. If transgender affirming treatments are being promoted as the way to treat anyone who has trans feelings (if its put into law) then doctors have to follow this even if they disagree. Do you think that there will be doctors who disagree with trans affirming treatments. So any doctor that does not follow that treatment is at risk of being reprimanded and losing their job. Its self evident.

When you consider that we are now seeing that trans affirming treatments like puberty blockers and cross sex hormones have unknown risks or that surgery does not necessarily help then some doctors are going to feel uncomfiortable about following the trans ideology of affirming trans feelings and using gender affirming treatments. The link I posted in the last post on this to you was the citation. Anyway,

 

[VirOptimus]

Actually, it seems to me that they said it may not be fully reversible, and they also said there aren't many studies on the long term effects of things like hormonal treatments.

I don't see anywhere in your post where you claimed that there's little to no evidence that gender affirming treatment has any benefit.

Also, when you don't post the actual source, but instead post an article about the original source and that article is from what appears to be an anti-trans website (despite their claims to the contrary*), I hardly think that what you've provided is a good source.

* Their website claims that kids are not in a position to know if they are trans or not, yet research indicates that they are. Young Trans Children Know Who They Are

What a surprise, Stevevw misquote and misunderstand, again.

I knew it would be pointless reading the post.