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Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

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Speedwell

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absolutely not, I'd say this is an extremely common flaw in our 'anticipatory' logic that computer modelling exposes
a rabbit could be born with a mutation that grants rabbit superpowers; could run twice as fast, jump twice as high- and still die of disease before reaching sexual maturity and passing that mutation on.
the Darwinian algorithm cares not a jot if it wasted a great advantage- it has no goal to improve the species.
Correct. There is no goal beyond presenting a randomly distributed range of variants to the environment with each new generation of a population.



eventually, of course IF
preserved, but in the wild most genetic lines die out regardless- so what mechanism would be preserving this small advantage meanwhile if natural selection has not had time to pay off yet?
It won't necessarily always be preserved, but just hang in there because it's not in the way. Like, some people have blue eyes and some don't. At present there is no significant selective advantage either way, but who knows? Someday there might be.
 
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Ophiolite

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It won't necessarily always be preserved, but just hang in there because it's not in the way. Like, some people have blue eyes and some don't. At present there is no significant selective advantage either way, but who knows? Someday there might be.
Neatly put and that's because the real advantage is that they have eyes.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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absolutely not, I'd say this is an extremely common flaw in our 'anticipatory' logic that computer modelling exposes
a rabbit could be born with a mutation that grants rabbit superpowers; could run twice as fast, jump twice as high- and still die of disease before reaching sexual maturity and passing that mutation on.
the Darwinian algorithm cares not a jot if it wasted a great advantage- it has no goal to improve the species.
In the context of evolution, which is a population-level multi-generation process, we talk about the general case of individuals that reproduce. If an individual doesn't reproduce, their heritable mutations are irrelevant, and those individuals themselves are generally only significant in those species where they have explicit roles (e.g. eusocial insects with sterile worker castes).

eventually, of course IF
preserved, but in the wild most genetic lines die out regardless- so what mechanism would be preserving this small advantage meanwhile if natural selection has not had time to pay off yet?
If a mutation provides an advantage, it means that it makes the associated genes more likely to persist and propagate through the population. If the advantage is very slight, the genes of that individual and its offspring have only a very slightly better chance of persisting and propagating through the population than those of an average member of the population.

If you have an example an advantageous mutation where natural selection has 'not had time to pay off', please describe it to clarify what you had in mind.

there's the catch 22, significant advantages are extremely hard to come by accidentally, and insignificant advantages are simply.. insignificant. meanwhile of course the vast majority are deleterious
Not really. It depends on the species and how you count the mutations. The more deleterious the mutation, the less chance it has of being propagated - many are lethal during development, so are not seen even in immature individuals; the remainder will be selected out over subsequent generations. The majority of accumulated mutations are likely to be effectively neutral at any given time (having been either historically neutral or beneficial, and now fixed) the few novel advantageous mutations will tend to propagate to fixation, and the novel neutral mutations will tend to drift.

However, that is an overly simplistic description, the mutation-selection balance is complicated by genetic drift and the tendency for persistence & accumulation of deleterious recessive mutations, n other considerations.

A mutation that has an 'insignificant advantage' is neutral. A mutation is beneficial if it provides a selection advantage, i.e. it is significant. Beneficial mutations are relatively rare, but frequent enough to enable rapid and significant changes under strong selection - selective breeding is an excellent example; in a few thousand years we've changed our agricultural flora and fauna beyond recognition by strong selection of natural variants.

this matches what we see in the fossil record - very little evidence of any gradual improvement occurring over time
It is not a case of 'improvement' over evolutionary timescales. Evolutionary adaptation responds to changing environmental conditions; what is successful in some conditions is less so in others. But the more fossil discoveries that are made, the clearer the lineages and their relationships become. We don't have many detailed examples of rapid diversification or change because of the limitations of the fossil record, but what we have is conclusive enough that we can predict the location of and time period of strata where we expect to find transitional fossils of a particular clade - and find them.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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as in above post ^, of course you can have false negatives, but positives are extremely conclusive after only a very small amount of detectable info

having said that - it's not about matching anything that you might recognize as product of intelligence, but specifically information, because that is far more mathematically objective and conclusive
So what is the objective mathematical description of 'specifying information'?

How does mathematics help you recognise information that is the product of intelligence?

e.g. a rough pyramidal hill can be ,and has been, mistaken for a natural object and vice versa- but finding hieroglyphs carved on it makes intelligence conclusive
Only if you recognise them as hieroglyphs - do you have some 'mathematically objective and conclusive' technique for doing that?

I think your argument begs the question and lacks justification; you've defined 'specifying information' as a pattern that 'specifies something beyond what inherently constitutes it's medium' and asserted that it is the product of intelligence - without justification. You say that DNA is specifying information and therefore is the product of intelligence.

However, you have no means of identifying 'specifying information' unless you already know it's the product of intelligence, and I've provided an example of a pattern (a hoofprint) that 'specifies something beyond what inherently constitutes it's medium' yet is clearly not of intelligent origin.

I suggest that 'specifying information' is ill-defined, and the assertion that it is necessarily the product of intelligence is unjustified.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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who knows? Someday there might be.

^ again, no, if it takes many generations for a slight advantage to have any effect on increased reproduction, what is preserving the mutation meanwhile?

The overwhelming probability is that the genetic line will die out long before the pay off
 
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Guy Threepwood

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In the context of evolution, which is a population-level multi-generation process, we talk about the general case of individuals that reproduce. If an individual doesn't reproduce, their heritable mutations are irrelevant, and those individuals themselves are generally only significant in those species where they have explicit roles (e.g. eusocial insects with sterile worker castes).

If a mutation provides an advantage, it means that it makes the associated genes more likely to persist and propagate through the population. If the advantage is very slight, the genes of that individual and its offspring have only a very slightly better chance of persisting and propagating through the population than those of an average member of the population.

If you have an example an advantageous mutation where natural selection has 'not had time to pay off', please describe it to clarify what you had in mind.


Not really. It depends on the species and how you count the mutations. The more deleterious the mutation, the less chance it has of being propagated - many are lethal during development, so are not seen even in immature individuals; the remainder will be selected out over subsequent generations. The majority of accumulated mutations are likely to be effectively neutral at any given time (having been either historically neutral or beneficial, and now fixed) the few novel advantageous mutations will tend to propagate to fixation, and the novel neutral mutations will tend to drift.

However, that is an overly simplistic description, the mutation-selection balance is complicated by genetic drift and the tendency for persistence & accumulation of deleterious recessive mutations, n other considerations.

A mutation that has an 'insignificant advantage' is neutral. A mutation is beneficial if it provides a selection advantage, i.e. it is significant. Beneficial mutations are relatively rare, but frequent enough to enable rapid and significant changes under strong selection - selective breeding is an excellent example; in a few thousand years we've changed our agricultural flora and fauna beyond recognition by strong selection of natural variants.

we agree then; where intelligent anticipation is provided, genetic lines can be incrementally improved towards a specific goal, because we can override that natural chaos, which otherwise readily selects from a vastly greater number of neutral mutations over the rare superior ones, right?

But again we run into limitations within set boundaries of natural variation (hence direct genetic modification required to break through them) and these appear at either end of the spectrum- i.e. both superior and inferior departures from average will result in reproductive dysfunction.

i.e. random natural variation and selection certainly act as a very useful and logical design feature in a dynamic environment- not necessarily a design mechanism - two very distinct processes.

Just as in classical physics, the intuitive 'immutable laws' turned out to be very useful features of physical reality-but certainly not explanations for it - things DO work differently at different scales, they have to.

I know you love analogies so; of course we can randomly select paint, upholstery, engine size, gear ratio options in a new car, because the choices are already deliberately constrained within a range of viable options. But obviously the car itself cannot be designed by the same method.


It is not a case of 'improvement' over evolutionary timescales. Evolutionary adaptation responds to changing environmental conditions; what is successful in some conditions is less so in others. But the more fossil discoveries that are made, the clearer the lineages and their relationships become. We don't have many detailed examples of rapid diversification or change because of the limitations of the fossil record, but what we have is conclusive enough that we can predict the location of and time period of strata where we expect to find transitional fossils of a particular clade - and find them.

Again I agree we see sudden changes in fossils along with sudden changes in environment- but it's very difficult to establish this as a result of incremental variation and natural selection within the increasingly abrupt timescales that are emerging.. if there were some more direct method of genetic modification occurring to more rapidly and effectively introduce new design- that would help explain a lot of current problems with the record
 
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Guy Threepwood

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So what is the objective mathematical description of 'specifying information'?

How does mathematics help you recognise information that is the product of intelligence?


Only if you recognise them as hieroglyphs - do you have some 'mathematically objective and conclusive' technique for doing that?

their geometry, described by mathematical values yes- the hieroglyphs are an example where we do not necessarily need to know what the information is specifying, to determine that it is specifying something.

If we found something resembling the tomb of Seti I on Mars, the incredibly profound implications would be totally overcome, that's how powerful the fingerprint is

I think your argument begs the question and lacks justification; you've defined 'specifying information' as a pattern that 'specifies something beyond what inherently constitutes it's medium' and asserted that it is the product of intelligence - without justification. You say that DNA is specifying information and therefore is the product of intelligence.

However, you have no means of identifying 'specifying information' unless you already know it's the product of intelligence, and I've provided an example of a pattern (a hoofprint) that 'specifies something beyond what inherently constitutes it's medium' yet is clearly not of intelligent origin.

I suggest that 'specifying information' is ill-defined, and the assertion that it is necessarily the product of intelligence is unjustified.

the lone hoofprint is just a hoofprint, if the medium is the hoofprint, then it specifies nothing beyond this no,

But if the hoofprints lead up to an apple tree and circle around it, now we have a pattern showing a fingerprint of intelligence. (an animal seeking food)

The forces of nature, and intelligence, are distinct phenomena- as recognized by archeologists and forensic scientists - this is nothing new or controversial-
The telltale fingerprint of specifying information is that it shows a capacity for anticipation, a phenomena unique to creative intelligence.

I don't see any reason to break this objective law, and make a special exception for biology- specifically genetic code, no matter how profound the implications might be
 
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Guy Threepwood

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If the information in DNA is "vast", what is the measurement by which you made that determination?

And no word salads about DNA being like computers or language or other nonsense. Talk about how you specifically measure the information in DNA.

Genome size
3,100 Mbp[1] (mega-basepairs) per haploid genome
6,200 Mbp total (diploid).
 
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Speedwell

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The telltale fingerprint of specifying information is that it shows a capacity for anticipation, a phenomena unique to creative intelligence.
Which is not present in evolution.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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DNA is not a written language. Can you define genetic information with respect to genetics?

I wouldn't generally describe it as a language no, as that infers a specifically human originated type of information, but contrasting the word 'language' to any code convention in computing or biology is splitting hairs somewhat- i.e. largely a semantic preference

But in the context of genetics we generally refer to it as genetic code, or genetic information written with RNA or DNA, You could ask any geneticist to elaborate, but it has been recognized as a code for many decades now.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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we agree then; where intelligent anticipation is provided, genetic lines can be incrementally improved towards a specific goal, because we can override that natural chaos, which otherwise readily selects from a vastly greater number of neutral mutations over the rare superior ones, right?
You missed my point - the strong, focused selection pressures we can apply demonstrates that evolutionary processes can achieve levels of change in a few hundred generations (or less) that would normally take natural selection far longer. But in times of extreme natural selection pressure, e.g. existential bottlenecks, similar levels of change can occur (which is why you should always finish your course of antibiotics) - and the underlying process is exactly the same - random heritable mutation followed by selection.

But again we run into limitations within set boundaries of natural variation (hence direct genetic modification required to break through them) and these appear at either end of the spectrum- i.e. both superior and inferior departures from average will result in reproductive dysfunction.
You'll have to clarify what you mean here - what 'direct genetic modification'? What do you mean by 'superior and inferior departures from average'? Why would a 'superior departure' result in reproductive dysfunction? - remember that a 'advantageous' in this context is defined in terms of reproductive success.

...random natural variation and selection certainly act as a very useful and logical design feature in a dynamic environment- not necessarily a design mechanism - two very distinct processes.
Not sure what you mean by this - natural variation and selection produce highly functional results, albeit extremely wastefully. I'm sympathetic to suggestions that this process can be called 'design' despite lacking purpose or intent, but the teleological meaning of 'design' runs deep. Evolutionary designs occur because they're more successful rather than in order to be more successful; IOW teleological interpretations are retrospective conveniences.

Just as in classical physics, the intuitive 'immutable laws' turned out to be very useful features of physical reality-but certainly not explanations for it - things DO work differently at different scales, they have to.
Physical laws are descriptions or explanations of the way the world is observed to work. There are deeper explanations for many physical laws (e.g. thermodynamics, fluid mechanics), but ultimately science doesn't address the 'why's, only the 'how's.

I know you love analogies so; of course we can randomly select paint, upholstery, engine size, gear ratio options in a new car, because the choices are already deliberately constrained within a range of viable options. But obviously the car itself cannot be designed by the same method.
That is not a remotely useful analogy. Evolution is constrained by the laws of physics, the limitations of biological tissue, and time. Increasing complexity and specialisation can narrow the breadth of options in some directions, but evolution does not necessarily increase complexity and specialisation - we are just more aware of the more complex and specialised results.

Again I agree we see sudden changes in fossils along with sudden changes in environment- but it's very difficult to establish this as a result of incremental variation and natural selection within the increasingly abrupt timescales that are emerging.. if there were some more direct method of genetic modification occurring to more rapidly and effectively introduce new design- that would help explain a lot of current problems with the record
As I already mentioned, when selection pressures are strong and focused very rapid changes can occur - as demonstrated by selective breeding. Look at what had been achieved with our fruit and veg until recent genetic engineering. Compare the fruit & veg on sale with their wild relatives.
 
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pitabread

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, but contrasting the word 'language' to any code convention in computing or biology is splitting hairs somewhat- i.e. largely a semantic preference

No, it's not splitting hairs.

It's actually critical to the central claims from creationists re: information. That you are unable to actually define it is specifically re: genetics is precisely because of the requires for creationist arguments to rely on equivocation.
 
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pitabread

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Genome size
3,100 Mbp[1] (mega-basepairs) per haploid genome
6,200 Mbp total (diploid).

So your measurement is simply the number of base pairs?

Cool, then I guess we know that genetic information can increase then.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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So your measurement is simply the number of base pairs?

Cool, then I guess we know that genetic information can increase then.

exactly- vast new volumes of information need to be introduced, that is where we see macro-evolution, , new body plans and emergent features appearing abruptly in the record,
not gradual incremental changes within natural variation of existing traits/control genes (getting back to the op)
 
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Guy Threepwood

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No, it's not splitting hairs.

It's actually critical to the central claims from creationists re: information. That you are unable to actually define it is specifically re: genetics is precisely because of the requires for creationist arguments to rely on equivocation.

I can't speak for creationists, but I agree with Dawkins on this:

"After Watson and Crick, we know that genes themselves, within their minute internal structure, are long strings of pure digital information. What is more, they are truly digital, in the full and strong sense"

"Genes are pure information – information that can be encoded, recoded and decoded, without any degradation or change of meaning. Pure information can be copied and, since it is digital information, the fidelity of the copying can be immense. DNA characters are copied with an accuracy that rivals anything modern engineers can do.":Richard Dawkins,

i.e.
it is very difficult to talk about a a hierarchical digitally encoded information system, without using words like digital, code or information, and most like Dawkins, don't see any need to intentionally avoid them.
 
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pitabread

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exactly- vast new volumes of information need to be introduced, that is where we see macro-evolution, , new body plans and emergent features appearing abruptly in the record,
not gradual incremental changes within natural variation of existing traits/control genes (getting back to the op)

Sounds like you agree that evolution is the process that does just that, since that is what we observe.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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You missed my point - the strong, focused selection pressures we can apply demonstrates that evolutionary processes can achieve levels of change in a few hundred generations (or less) that would normally take natural selection far longer. But in times of extreme natural selection pressure, e.g. existential bottlenecks, similar levels of change can occur (which is why you should always finish your course of antibiotics) - and the underlying process is exactly the same - random heritable mutation followed by selection.

You present an example of the problem with the title:
"Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection'

the bottle neck reduces the variation, it turns the Darwinian tree upside down, the resistant strain of bacteria, like the dark peppered moth, always existed- you just removed it's competition, reducing the diversity of life..

By that definition, if I fill a room with black cats and white cats, dim the lights, and shoot anything I see moving, this is a demonstration of accelerated Darwinian evolution at work..

You see the problem here: we are trying to account for sudden explosive radiations of NEW life forms, a vast biodiversity branching out from allegedly a single celled bacteria-like organism by most accounts.. not merely the sudden extinction of pre-existing life, we all understand how you destroy life (and information), creating it is the tricky part
 
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Guy Threepwood

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You'll have to clarify what you mean here - what 'direct genetic modification'? What do you mean by 'superior and inferior departures from average'? Why would a 'superior departure' result in reproductive dysfunction? - remember that a 'advantageous' in this context is defined in terms of reproductive success.

meaning the intentional introduction of new specifying information, (not random mutation) this is the only proven means by which macro evolution can occur.

And by superior/inferior i think we agree- better suited for reproductive success
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Not sure what you mean by this - natural variation and selection produce highly functional results, albeit extremely wastefully. I'm sympathetic to suggestions that this process can be called 'design' despite lacking purpose or intent, but the teleological meaning of 'design' runs deep. Evolutionary designs occur because they're more successful rather than in order to be more successful; IOW teleological interpretations are retrospective conveniences.

almost any complex product includes a capacity for variation, in a dynamic environment- the fact that organisms display adaptability is practically a design constraint-

whether or not it is also a process for creating all biologicals diversity is another question entirely- it goes beyond mere speculation and into the hierarchical nature of DNA.

control genes control specific traits within viable ranges, just as text parameters can be tweaked without crashing the software here- they cannot be used to author new software- two distinct and necessarily separated mechanisms
 
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