Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Ken-1122]

Race is a part of background, and it’s a pretty significant part for black people. It’s what determined their social standing in the US for hundreds of years. There are people living and working today who lived under Jim Crow laws. It’s ludicrous to suppose the psychological, social, and economic effects of such a subjugated past should have worn off already. These things don’t heal in just a generation or two.

So because my grandfather and father suffered under Jim Crow and the KKK, I suffer to? You jokin’ right? My parents participated in the Montgomery Bus boycott, got arrested for sitting at white only diners, and went through all kinda hell so I don’t have to; so I can enjoy the citizenship rights I enjoy today. For me to use their tribulations as an excuse for my shortcomings would be a disrespect to my ancestors; Hell naaw… I’m better than that!

In this case, I’m saying you won’t be able to find data to support your thesis that the genesis of culture (and thus the problematic elements thereof) is individual initiative and not material conditions.

My point does not require I prove such a thesis.

“Community at large” does not need to be unanimous, it just refers to the prevailing, normative practices within that community.

I’m not saying it is a prevailing normative practice within any community. I’m just saying it exists, and where it exist; I recognize the harm it causes.

 

[gaara4158]

So because my grandfather and father suffered under Jim Crow and the KKK, I suffer to? You jokin’ right? My parents participated in the Montgomery Bus boycott, got arrested for sitting at white only diners, and went through all kinda hell so I don’t have to; so I can enjoy the citizenship rights I enjoy today. For me to use their tribulations as an excuse for my shortcomings would be a disrespect to my ancestors; Hell naaw… I’m better than that!

Glad you were able to overcome the unique setbacks people of your race typically face. To deny that they exist or need to be addressed is the ultimate insult to your ancestors.

My point does not require I prove such a thesis.

Then I have gravely misinterpreted your point. What is your thesis?

I’m not saying it is a prevailing normative practice within any community. I’m just saying it exists, and where it exist; I recognize the harm it causes.

You’re basically saying bad behavior is bad. Entirely unhelpful.

 

[Ken-1122]

Glad you were able to overcome the unique setbacks people of your race typically face. To deny that they exist or need to be addressed is the ultimate insult to your ancestors.

What setbacks do I as a black man typically face, that you as a white man typically do not face, assuming our behaviors and reactions are the same? Personally I believe as a black man I have more advantages than you as a white man, and though it may not always be fair, I do take advantage of those opportunities.

Then I have gravely misinterpreted your point. What is your thesis?

You’re basically saying bad behavior is bad. Entirely unhelpful.

Not quite; I’m saying there are specific bad behaviors (destructive culture) black people often engage in and that is causing more harm than the problems the powers that be like to address in the black community. Community activists like BLM go all out when a cop kills a black man, but they look the other way; remaining silent when a gang member kills a black man and says “no snitchin”. If I recall correctly 2019 had only 9 unarmed black men killed by the police (19 unarmed white men) but black on black homicide killings were around 7,000; that’s over twice the number the KKK killed over a 100 year period! (3,400)
Blacks kill more blacks than the KKK ever did
But nobody wants to talk about that. It’s like having a leaky faucet in the bathroom and a fire in the kitchen, and everybody is in the bathroom with pipe wrenches while the house burns down, then they wanna cry institutional racism!
I can understand why they don’t want to talk about it, because if they talk about it; they have to justify why they aren’t doing anything about it. It is easier to demand someone else change their behavior than it is to change your own, and because nobody wants to change their own; when groups like BLM come by and point the finger at something else other than their own behavior that needs to change, everybody gets behind them and the entire world takes notice. Unfortunately community activists like BLM only address 1% of the problem and ignore 99% of the problem so even if they had 100% success and we had a year when the cops killed no unarmed black men, it would only be a very small drop in a very large bucket and the problems would still exist.
Somebody needs to talk about this destructive culture; that’s why I talk about it. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not saying NOBODY is talking about this, there are some who are, but their numbers are practically non existent when compared to the plethora of those who talk about the 1% of the problem.

 

[gaara4158]

What setbacks do I as a black man typically face, that you as a white man typically do not face, assuming our behaviors and reactions are the same? Personally I believe as a black man I have more advantages than you as a white man, and though it may not always be fair, I do take advantage of those opportunities.

I’m not exactly white, and I can’t speak to your personal experiences nor you mine. But if you’re going to deny that systemic racism affects black people more negatively than it does white people, you’ll have to explain a lot of discrepancies. If you want to blame it all on cultural differences, you need evidence for that, and even if that’s the case, that would count as a setback to overcome and you’ll have answered your own question.

Not quite; I’m saying there are specific bad behaviors (destructive culture) black people often engage in and that is causing more harm than the problems the powers that be like to address in the black community.

Right, you’re trying to pin the blame all on “culture.” The problem is this is too reductive. Where do you think culture comes from? How much of an influence does it have on people, such that you simultaneously claim it’s to blame for all of black people’s problems and yet that it’s trivially easy to reject within black communities?

Community activists like BLM go all out when a cop kills a black man, but they look the other way; remaining silent when a gang member kills a black man and says “no snitchin”.

Not true at all. Black leaders make a great effort to bring attention to all the top killers of black people, including gang violence. The difference between them and you is, they don’t stop there. They look into the causes of gang violence, which you refuse to believe is anything beyond “culture.” The truth is a bit more nuanced than that. If you’re interested, here’s one of many articles discussing the studies on this subject. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...-broken-homes-violence-the-making-gang-member

This rant you’ve gone on about how “nobody’s talking about black on black violence” is false, as I’ve shown, but more importantly it’s directly imported from right-wing propaganda. They want you to believe black people don’t have legitimate grievances, and are actually the cause of all of their own suffering because then you don’t have to check and see if you’re part of the problem. They can’t afford radical restructuring of public policy, so they want you to believe it’s all nonsense, and it looks like you’ve bought their narrative. Thankfully, it’s a narrative that’s easily shattered with facts, if you’ll just look at them:
Stop accusing the Black Lives Matter movement of ignoring so-called "black-on-black" crime | The Milwaukee Independent
This article discusses the statistics concerning murders and race, and why the black-on-black murder rate isn’t an excuse to ignore the disproportionate police violence against black people.

https://richmondpledge.org/wp-conte...ons-About-the-Black-Lives-Matter-Movement.pdf
This PDF dispels myths about the BLM movement you’ve hinted at.

Why Black Lives Matter doesn't focus on ‘black-on-black’ crime
Yet another article discussing why black crime isn’t the primary focus of black advocacy protests.

Make no mistake, black leadership is aware of the many sources of violence on black people. Unlike you, they’re also invested in making the systemic changes required to solve those problems, rather than simply demonizing individuals.

 

[Ken-1122]

I’m not exactly white, and I can’t speak to your personal experiences nor you mine. But if you’re going to deny that systemic racism affects black people more negatively than it does white people, you’ll have to explain a lot of discrepancies.

I’m not convinced systemic racism is even an issue anymore; however since you obviously believe it is, show me where it exist.
In order for “Systemic Racism” to be an issue, it would mean the system itself is racist, not just the people who are a part of the system using their power and influence within the system to discriminate. Let’s use a police department as an example of the racist system. In order for the police department to be complicit in systemic racism, that would mean if you could somehow replace all the officers within the department with non-corrupt non racist officers, and racism would still exist within the department, that would be an example of systemic racism. However if replacing the racist officers with fair officers cleanses the department of racism, then systemic racism was never an issue, it was just an example of racist officers within the system; not systemic racism.
An example of systemic racism would be Jim Crow laws. If all the racist bus drivers were replaced with non-racist bus drivers during that time, racism would still exist because the laws of the transit system required all black people to sit in the back of the bus. But for a racist of today to go against company/system policy to use his position to illegally discriminate against people he has vowed to be fair to (usually upon employment), this is not an example of systemic racism, this is another example of racist existing within a system.
So again; show me a system where racism exist.

I Not true at all. Black leaders make a great effort to bring attention to all the top killers of black people, including gang violence. The difference between them and you is, they don’t stop there. They look into the causes of gang violence, which you refuse to believe is anything beyond “culture.” The truth is a bit more nuanced than that. If you’re interested, here’s one of many articles discussing the studies on this subject. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...-broken-homes-violence-the-making-gang-member

This rant you’ve gone on about how “nobody’s talking about black on black violence” is false, as I’ve shown, but more importantly it’s directly imported from right-wing propaganda. They want you to believe black people don’t have legitimate grievances, and are actually the cause of all of their own suffering because then you don’t have to check and see if you’re part of the problem. They can’t afford radical restructuring of public policy, so they want you to believe it’s all nonsense, and it looks like you’ve bought their narrative. Thankfully, it’s a narrative that’s easily shattered with facts, if you’ll just look at them:
Stop accusing the Black Lives Matter movement of ignoring so-called "black-on-black" crime | The Milwaukee Independent
This article discusses the statistics concerning murders and race, and why the black-on-black murder rate isn’t an excuse to ignore the disproportionate police violence against black people.

https://richmondpledge.org/wp-conte...ons-About-the-Black-Lives-Matter-Movement.pdf
This PDF dispels myths about the BLM movement you’ve hinted at.

Why Black Lives Matter doesn't focus on ‘black-on-black’ crime
Yet another article discussing why black crime isn’t the primary focus of black advocacy protests.

Make no mistake, black leadership is aware of the many sources of violence on black people. Unlike you, they’re also invested in making the systemic changes required to solve those problems, rather than simply demonizing individuals.

I never claimed nobody was address this destructive culture, as a matter of fact I think I was very clear that there are those who are, but when compared to the number who address the small percentage of innocent blacks who are killed by the police, the number is extremely small. Yes you can find articles here, youtube videos there about how a community leader is addressing gang violence, or black on black crime in specific neighborhoods, but compare that to the outrage resulting from George Floyd, Michael Brown, Breonna Taylor, and others; resulting in riots, fire bombing business, for months on end, and most of these riots happened in cities where these people didn’t even live. You cannot compare the two.
And while it is true that the percentage of whites killed by other whites (and all other races) are similar to the percentage of blacks killed by other blacks, the reason black on black crime is an issue is because over half of the murder victims in this country are black victims even though we make up only approx 12% of the population.
Murder in the U.S.: victims by race/ethnicity and gender 2019 | Statista
As I said before, homicide is the number 1 killer of black men; no other demographic has this distinction.
Nothing you’ve presented here refutes anything I’ve said.

 

[gaara4158]

I’m not convinced systemic racism is even an issue anymore; however since you obviously believe it is, show me where it exist.

You can start here.
Institutional racism - Wikipedia
Once you’ve finished reading the article and its cited sources, we can return to the discussion of systemic racism. Until then, your subsequent replies are irrelevant due to being based on a flawed understanding of what is meant by the term.

I’m not convinced systemic racism is even an issue anymore; however since you obviously believe it is, show me where it exist.
In order for “Systemic Racism” to be an issue, it would mean the system itself is racist, not just the people who are a part of the system using their power and influence within the system to discriminate. Let’s use a police department as an example of the racist system. In order for the police department to be complicit in systemic racism, that would mean if you could somehow replace all the officers within the department with non-corrupt non racist officers, and racism would still exist within the department, that would be an example of systemic racism. However if replacing the racist officers with fair officers cleanses the department of racism, then systemic racism was never an issue, it was just an example of racist officers within the system; not systemic racism.
An example of systemic racism would be Jim Crow laws. If all the racist bus drivers were replaced with non-racist bus drivers during that time, racism would still exist because the laws of the transit system required all black people to sit in the back of the bus. But for a racist of today to go against company/system policy to use his position to illegally discriminate against people he has vowed to be fair to (usually upon employment), this is not an example of systemic racism, this is another example of racist existing within a system.
So again; show me a system where racism exist.

I never claimed nobody was address this destructive culture, as a matter of fact I think I was very clear that there are those who are, but when compared to the number who address the small percentage of innocent blacks who are killed by the police, the number is extremely small. Yes you can find articles here, youtube videos there about how a community leader is addressing gang violence, or black on black crime in specific neighborhoods, but compare that to the outrage resulting from George Floyd, Michael Brown, Breonna Taylor, and others; resulting in riots, fire bombing business, for months on end, and most of these riots happened in cities where these people didn’t even live. You cannot compare the two.
And while it is true that the percentage of whites killed by other whites (and all other races) are similar to the percentage of blacks killed by other blacks, the reason black on black crime is an issue is because over half of the murder victims in this country are black victims even though we make up only approx 12% of the population.
Murder in the U.S.: victims by race/ethnicity and gender 2019 | Statista
As I said before, homicide is the number 1 killer of black men; no other demographic has this distinction.
Nothing you’ve presented here refutes anything I’ve said.

Nothing you’ve said has been useful or constructive, nor does it reflect the informed perspective of someone who actually read the articles I posted.

 

[Ken-1122]

You can start here.
Institutional racism - Wikipedia
Once you’ve finished reading the article and its cited sources, we can return to the discussion of systemic racism. Until then, your subsequent replies are irrelevant due to being based on a flawed understanding of what is meant by the term.

I’ve read the article. Now point to the system/organization/institution where it is normal practice to discriminate against black people. Do you suppose there are just as many systems/organizations/institutions that discriminate against white people?

Nothing you’ve said has been useful or constructive, nor does it reflect the informed perspective of someone who actually read the articles I posted.

You assume that because I have views you disagree with, that I don’t have an informed perspective of the articles you posted? In other words, if I knew better I would just agree with you; right? Ridicules.

 

[gaara4158]

I’ve read the article. Now point to the system/organization/institution where it is normal practice to discriminate against black people. Do you suppose there are just as many systems/organizations/institutions that discriminate against white people?

No you didn’t. It’s in the Wikipedia entry.

You assume that because I have views you disagree with, that I don’t have an informed perspective of the articles you posted? In other words, if I knew better I would just agree with you; right? Ridicules.

No. I observe from your arguments, which are identical to those provided by right-wing grifters and pundits, that you’re not really engaging my points, but rather responding reflexively to them with the talking points you’re already familiar with.

 

[Ken-1122]

No you didn’t. It’s in the Wikipedia entry.

Wikipedia didn't give any examples. Let me guess... you don't know of any examples of systemic racism, but you just know it's out there somewhere; huh? That figures.

No. I observe from your arguments, which are identical to those provided by right-wing grifters and pundits, that you’re not really engaging my points, but rather responding reflexively to them with the talking points you’re already familiar with.

You seem to have a common problem where all opposing arguments sound the same to you.

 

[gaara4158]

Wikipedia didn't give any examples. Let me guess... you don't know of any examples of systemic racism, but you just know it's out there somewhere; huh? That figures.

What a useless bluff. I know you didn’t read it because it specifically lists and discusses at length examples of systemic racism in housing, healthcare, criminal conviction, drug abuse, juvenile courts, etc etc etc. Do I need to copy-paste the contents of the article?

You seem to have a common problem where all opposing arguments sound the same to you.

They’re incorrect, but that’s their problem.

 

[Ken-1122]

What a useless bluff. I know you didn’t read it because it specifically lists and discusses at length examples of systemic racism in housing, healthcare, criminal conviction, drug abuse, juvenile courts, etc etc etc. Do I need to copy-paste the contents of the article?.

Wikipedia does not claim all of American education, all of American healthcare, all of Criminal convictions and the other examples given are complicit in systemic racism. It list those things as examples of how it could take place; but it doesn't list any specific schools, healthcare companies or anything else guilty of it.

 

[gaara4158]

Wikipedia does not claim all of American education, all of American healthcare, all of Criminal convictions and the other examples given are complicit in systemic racism. It list those things as examples of how it could take place; but it doesn't list any specific schools, healthcare companies or anything else guilty of it.

It doesn’t need to. You claimed it didn’t exist anywhere. This article explains at length the ways in which it empirically manifests. You’re down to denying systemic racism because you’ve given away every other point, and the article is the last nail in the coffin for your thesis. You’re done.

 

[Ken-1122]

It doesn’t need to. You claimed it didn’t exist anywhere.

How about if you go back and read what I actually said, and respond to my actual words rather than make stuff up and responding to the made up words. Care to try again?

 

[gaara4158]

How about if you go back and read what I actually said, and respond to my actual words rather than make stuff up and responding to the made up words. Care to try again?

You said:

I’m not convinced systemic racism is even an issue anymore; however since you obviously believe it is, show me where it exist.

I responded to this. Take this L and rethink your position.

 

[Ken-1122]

You said:

I responded to this. Take this L and rethink your position.

You claimed I said it doesn't exist, where as I actually said I don't believe it is an issue anymore. Thus far nothing you've presented showed me it is an issue anymore.

 

[gaara4158]

You claimed I said it doesn't exist, where as I actually said I don't believe it is an issue anymore. Thus far nothing you've presented showed me it is an issue anymore.

Potato, potahto. Your very next sentence was a challenge to me to show you it exists, implying you don’t believe it does. I presented more than enough evidence in that regard. If you’ve nothing of value to say now, you don’t need to keep responding.

 

[Ken-1122]

Potato, potahto. Your very next sentence was a challenge to me to show you it exists, implying you don’t believe it does.

Not quite; I was implying that if it does exist, it is at such an insignificant level that it has little or no effect on our everyday lives.

I presented more than enough evidence in that regard. If you’ve nothing of value to say now, you don’t need to keep responding.

You've presented nothing but a link giving examples of how it could hurt people. If it actually had an effect on our everyday lives, you should be able to give examples of harm caused by it.

 

[gaara4158]

Not quite; I was implying that if it does exist, it is at such an insignificant level that it has little or no effect on our everyday lives.


You've presented nothing but a link giving examples of how it could hurt people. If it actually had an effect on our everyday lives, you should be able to give examples of harm caused by it.

Click the United States tab of the article I provided. There are too many examples to list here. I tried to copy-paste and it exceeded the character limit. This is how I know you don’t read. Perhaps you’re another example of how public schooling fails black students.

 

[Ken-1122]

Click the United States tab of the article I provided. There are too many examples to list here. I tried to copy-paste and it exceeded the character limit. This is how I know you don’t read. Perhaps you’re another example of how public schooling fails black students.

Sorry; I'm not gonna read 100 pages in order to find a few examples. Perhaps you can read the 100 pages, and provide a couple examples.

 

[Ken-1122]

Click the United States tab of the article I provided. There are too many examples to list here. I tried to copy-paste and it exceeded the character limit. This is how I know you don’t read. Perhaps you’re another example of how public schooling fails black students.

To be fair, I did scan over it a bit, and the article seems to have the position that any disparity between races is the result of institutional racism. One point it made about Washington DC was:

In Washington D.C Black people make up 46% of the population but composed 72% of the people stopped even though the contraband hit rates between the two races are not statistically significant.

Now Washington DC has a black police chief, majority black police force, 9 of 12 city council members either black or brown, and even a black mayor, and they're all liberals. So I wonder why would a city where nearly every slot of political power is filled by liberal black people be an example of institutional racism against black people? Are we to assume when black people get into a position of power that they become racist against their own people? How do you explain this?