Saying goodbye

[Hazelelponi]

Do you? Why?
I was asking seriously. What "death" are you talking about?
A Christian does not die at death. They continue living the rest of their eternal life in a wonderful new form, in a place of infinite delights.
You call that death? "Continuing to live in a better form than before" doesn't sound like death to me.

It's passing from life to life, (this life to the next) which is why people often say "passed" or "passed away", but it involves physical death, (the death of the body) which is why it's called death.

 

[public hermit]

Surely a burial of Christians should be a place of happiness, satisfaction and delight, with anticipation for the joy soon to come to those left behind.

I have some sympathy with this critique. How much do we believe the great hope we proclaim if we are devastated by death?

But that observation can be turned around. If death is such a natural part of human existence, why do we avoid it? Why do we dread it and then mourn the death of others, if it is simply a natural end to a natural life? I don't break down in hysterics every time I use the bathroom. That's just a natural part of life.

We don't act as if death is natural. None of us do. We spend our lives trying to avoid it. The Christian response is we act that way because it's not natural. At least it's not the divine intention for life. We were created to live. So, we all act appropriately when we mourn death, because it goes against the goal of life, which is life. If Christians mourn death, they act appropriately. If they do so as if there is no hope of resurrected life, then your initial critique applies.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Most Christians aren't good Christians. Who would have thought that?
Maybe logic is not high on the agenda of people who are dying.

Thank you for your answer. I respect it, but disagree with it.
Being good Christians? I've often heard Christians say how hard it is to be good; to be merciful, forgiving and kind, in a world which discourages these things. But the question here is not, can Christians actually walk the talk. The question here is: do Christians actually believe what they say they believe?
Your post seems to imply that they do not.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The question here is: do Christians actually believe what they say they believe?

I do...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It's passing from life to life, (this life to the next) which is why people often say "passed" or "passed away", but it involves physical death, (the death of the body) which is why it's called death.

But you're not actually dead, are you? Your consciousness is still present. You can still think, feel, experience. Compared to what I see as death, which is the total cessation of everything you are, this does not seem like dying.
To refer to both completely ceasing to exist and continuing to exist as dying seems quite misleading.

 

[Hazelelponi]

But you're not actually dead, are you? Your consciousness is still present. You can still think, feel, experience. Compared to what I see as death, which is the total cessation of everything you are, this does not seem like dying.
To refer to both completely ceasing to exist and continuing to exist as dying seems quite misleading.

Physical death is physical... it involves a fair amount of pain and suffering for the one passing, and the Bible calls it death.

The Bible also tells us that the death of the body is not to be feared, but rather, the second death (body and soul in hell) that is the one we should fear.

But as I showed in the example of my son, it's still sad when we miss the people we love, whether they're in another state or in heaven with the Lord... we don't grieve for where they've gone or even because they're gone. We grieve because they aren't present with us anymore.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I have some sympathy with this critique. How much do we believe the great hope we proclaim if we are devastated by death?

But that observation can be turned around. If death is such a natural part of human existence, why do we avoid it? Why do we dread it and then mourn the death of others, if it is simply a natural end to a natural life? I don't break down in hysterics every time I use the bathroom. That's just a natural part of life.

We don't act as if death is natural. None of us do. We spend our lives trying to avoid it. The Christian response is we act that way because it's not natural. At least it's not the divine intention for life. We were created to live. So, we all act appropriately when we mourn death, because it goes against the goal of life, which is life. If Christians mourn death, they act appropriately. If they do so as if there is no hope of resurrected life, then your initial critique applies.

Thank you - a thoughtful response, and I appreciate it.
But I also disagree with it, and I'd like to explain why.

You say that death is a natural part of life, and so we should not dread it. But just because something is natural, does that mean we should not be afraid of it? A lion eating you in the jungle is natural. A virus bringing you to a slow and painful death is natural. "We should not fear something because it's natural" does not seem to follow.

Death is dreadful. First, and not unimportantly, death is almost always painful, sometimes extremely so. Whether you die falling off a cliff, being eaten by a lion or from cancer, death usually involves pain, and sometimes a lot of it. It's not just natural, then, it's logical to fear death, because of what it brings with it. And then, death itself: the total cessation of everything you are. If you value what you are in any way, if you enjoy being alive in any form, it's natural to fear death and to want to avoid it. You might even say that fearing death is hard-wired into us by evolution.

But Christians do not believe in death. A Christians believes that he or she will never actually die. They will stay conscious, they will stay present, they will stay themselves, they will retain all their memories and intents and characteristics; they will, essentially, still be alive. You can't sensibly call that death. It's not.

So, why are Christians afraid? The only answer I can think of is: because they don't really believe what they say they believe. They say they'll go to heaven, but they don't act like they will.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

When you truly love someone, you cry because you'll miss them...

My son has been staying with us for a few months as my husband and I needed him surrounding a major surgery I had... he's gone now, just an 8 hour drive away, but I still cried after he left.

Why? Because I love him and will miss him. He doesn't call me nearly enough when he's away.. haha. And i really liked having him with us, it was nice.

Now if I cry over someone I can pick up the phone and call whenever I'd like, what am I going to do when it's going to be 20, 30, 40 years before I can see or talk to them again?

It's just human nature to miss people, regardless of where they're going... that is, if we truly love them. And some of us are criers..

Thank you for your answer.

If someone told me that my son was going to go away and it would be ten, twenty or thirty years before I saw him again, I would have a lot of questions, for sure.

Will he ever come back? No.
Will I see him again? Yes, in many years.
Why in many years? Because you'll only see him when you go to the same place he has gone to.
I can't go to the same place that he has gone to for many years? Oh no, you can go there right now it you like. Also, did I mention, it's the most wonderful place imaginable!
Sounds great! I'll be going right now, then!

 

[Hazelelponi]

Thank you for your answer.

If someone told me that my son was going to go away and it would be ten, twenty or thirty years before I saw him again, I would have a lot of questions, for sure.

Will he ever come back? No.
Will I see him again? Yes, in many years.
Why in many years? Because you'll only see him when you go to the same place he has gone to.
I can't go to the same place that he has gone to for many years? Oh no, you can go there right now it you like. Also, did I mention, it's the most wonderful place imaginable!
Sounds great! I'll be going right now, then!

Lol... you wouldn't be sad if you couldn't go with him right then?

I'm sad when my son's 8 hours away and I can call him or visit whenever I'd like, and I know he's having a good time. Certainly not so sad I'd stop him, but it was certainly enough for some tears more than once...

I guess we are just different people...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Lol... you wouldn't be sad if you couldn't go with him right then?

I think you might have miswritten that?
I wouldn't be sad if I could go with him right then. Although the analogy might need adjusting at this point.

I'm sad when my son's 8 hours away and I can call him or visit whenever I'd like, and I know he's having a good time. Certainly not so sad I'd stop him, but it was certainly enough for some tears more than once...

But this isn't the same thing, is it?
In the case of death, your son isn't choosing to go away, he's being taken away. Against his will, really. But you could go with him if you chose. To a wonderful place, a place that you say you genuinely believe you want to go to.

I guess we are just different people...

My position is simply that Christians' actions are inconsistent with what they say are their beliefs.

 

[Hazelelponi]

But you could go with him if you chose.

Are you advocating suicide here? For the Christian suicide is not an option... just saying. Taking life into one's hand is murder, except in limited situations (self defense, war defending the innocent or defense of nation etc), even self-murder, and is against God's moral law.

I wouldn't be sad if I could go with him right then

In rewriting the analogy you wouldn't be sad if it was your loved one leaving you?

Again, if your answer is yes then you and I are simply different people..

My love for my son, my ability to miss my son when he is away, is based in my love of him. Maybe that love is something missing in others, but that love is absolutely consistent with the Christian faith.

Since at this point your doing crazy stuff like advocating suicide for goodness sakes, and I feel as if I'm beating a dead horse, I wish you well. I'm out of the conversation.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Are you advocating suicide here? For the Christian suicide is not an option... just saying. Taking life into one's hand is murder, except in limited situations (self defense, war defending the innocent or defense of nation etc), even self-murder, and is against God's moral law.



In rewriting the analogy you wouldn't be sad if it was your loved one leaving you?

Again, if your answer is yes then you and I are simply different people..

My love for my son, my ability to miss my son when he is away, is based in my love of him. Maybe that love is something missing in others, but that love is absolutely consistent with the Christian faith.

Since at this point your doing crazy stuff like advocating suicide for goodness sakes, and I feel as if I'm beating a dead horse, I wish you well. I'm out of the conversation.

I am absolutely not advocating suicide in any way, shape or form. But this is where we find ourselves if we explore the logical consequences of the Christian worldview.
Look at it like this:
Point 1: loved ones go away, and you are sad.
Point 2: these loved ones have gone to a place of unimaginable delights, that you yourself long to go to.
Point 3: it is quite possible for you to go to this place, where you will enjoy all of these delights - including being reunited with your loved ones.

If you find this offensive, please explain to me the error in Point 1, Point 2 or Point 3.

And if you don't wish to discuss it any more, thank you for your replies so far.

 

[Moral Orel]

I am absolutely not advocating suicide in any way, shape or form. But this is where we find ourselves if we explore the logical consequences of the Christian worldview.
Look at it like this:
Point 1: loved ones go away, and you are sad.
Point 2: these loved ones have gone to a place of unimaginable delights, that you yourself long to go to.
Point 3: it is quite possible for you to go to this place, where you will enjoy all of these delights - including being reunited with your loved ones.

Okay, you're not advocating suicide, but you're implying it's an option, right? To be clear, you cannot go to that place via suicide. You understand that, correct?

 

[mama2one]

going by title, thought you were leaving CF


still crying over dog we lost in 2020
our child also lost 2 grandpas in 2020


when the one grandpa left, everyone said he's in better place so they WERE happy!
he was quite ill & they didn't choose extraordinary measures to keep him alive longer


don't know reaction re other grandpa as we didn't attend funeral due to covid

 

[InterestedAtheist]

going by title, thought you were leaving CF


still crying over dog (avatar-younger pic) we lost in 2020
our child also lost 2 grandpas in 2020


when the one grandpa left, everyone said he's in better place so they WERE happy!
he was quite ill & they didn't choose extraordinary measures to keep him alive longer


don't know reaction re other grandpa as we didn't attend funeral due to covid

Do you want to engage me on this question? I don't want to bring up painful feelings.

 

[Under_the_moon]

To lose someone and know they are with God is hard because we are use to them being there, love them and miss them. Even if a loved one moves to another country, and they are totally happy they are still missed even though we are happy for them. I'm sure its the same for atheists or Christians alike. Although I don't like to be upset, it is hard not to miss someone.

 

[Pommer]

Anecdotal data doesn't really count. It's what we see in society as a whole that matters. And what we see is that Christians don't actually act as if they believe Heaven (and hell, for that matter) exist. They say they believe it, but they act as if they don't.

I, for one, am very glad that this apparent “contradiction” occurs. If my “believing” family members were full of joy that my brother was getting his “mansion” when he died (nearly two years ago after a short battle with cancer), I would have been livid.

Then, too, the query itself is a bit tricksy:
The OP fully understands that we’re little more than psychotic apes with brains too big for our own good.

Asking how a religion, even, if true, (assume for the sake of argument that Christianity is “the right religion” and that the decedent now exists on a high plane of existence loaded with unbound joy), could negate millions of years of evolutionary pressure (as well as thousands of years of social-norms).
Emotions are there for a reason.
That reason isn’t to assert what you think to be true but to acknowledge what one feels is what one feels.

I usually go numb for a few weeks and slowly grieve over time. I got family that get the bulk out as soon as they can, that’s what works for them, great.
I like to savor the pain. In small doses, for years.
I don’t ever pray for my family, the 400 people who I know to “be family”, but I sure do think of nearly half of them pretty regular.
Having “one go missing”, for me, requires “work”, to look up their birthday, and think of the birthday parties we may have shared at being, remembering interactions and what they said, and how they talked and how much, in that moment you realized that you “shared blood” with this guy and you were glad!

Expecting Homo sapiens to believe their way into expressing joy when losing a loved one, would be pushing it, even for their God.

 

[Pommer]

Thank you for your answer.

If someone told me that my son was going to go away and it would be ten, twenty or thirty years before I saw him again, I would have a lot of questions, for sure.

Will he ever come back? No.
Will I see him again? Yes, in many years.
Why in many years? Because you'll only see him when you go to the same place he has gone to.
I can't go to the same place that he has gone to for many years? Oh no, you can go there right now it you like. Also, did I mention, it's the most wonderful place imaginable!
Sounds great! I'll be going right now, then!

No, you can’t “leave town” until Hank sends you away.

 

[Pommer]

To lose someone and know they are with God is hard because we are use to them being there, love them and miss them. Even if a loved one moves to another country, and they are totally happy they are still missed even though we are happy for them. I'm sure its the same for atheists or Christians alike. Although I don't like to be upset, it is hard not to miss someone.

I got it set at “Deist” but I’m likely a “sun worshiper” (in that it is the only thing that I know that I know that drives life on this planet, therefore it’s as close to being “God” as I will allow myself to believe, (short of a bone fide “religious experience”, or watching limbs grow back, over weeks/months, say)).

So functionally I’m an atheist who’s not interested in needing other people to have come to the same conclusions about if their universe contains a God(s) or not. (Mine does not).

My father died in 1982.
I will never see or talk to him again but I remember him nearly every day that I live. I’m happy to have in in my mind, he was a flawed but good-hearted man but I’ll never get tell him that I love him, ever again.
Knowing that, is so freeing.
It is a great comfort for people to tell themselves that they’ll see their dead relatives when they themselves die, in Heaven. But it can get in the way of actually grieving, if you know that you’ll see “uncle Harry” when you die and settle things in heaven, why do it here?

I’m doing mine here, while I can.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I, for one, am very glad that this apparent “contradiction” occurs. If my “believing” family members were full of joy that my brother was getting his “mansion” when he died (nearly two years ago after a short battle with cancer), I would have been livid.

Then, too, the query itself is a bit tricksy:
The OP fully understands that we’re little more than psychotic apes with brains too big for our own good.

Asking how a religion, even, if true, (assume for the sake of argument that Christianity is “the right religion” and that the decedent now exists on a high plane of existence loaded with unbound joy), could negate millions of years of evolutionary pressure (as well as thousands of years of social-norms).
Emotions are there for a reason.
That reason isn’t to assert what you think to be true but to acknowledge what one feels is what one feels.

I usually go numb for a few weeks and slowly grieve over time. I got family that get the bulk out as soon as they can, that’s what works for them, great.
I like to savor the pain. In small doses, for years.
I don’t ever pray for my family, the 400 people who I know to “be family”, but I sure do think of nearly half of them pretty regular.
Having “one go missing”, for me, requires “work”, to look up their birthday, and think of the birthday parties we may have shared at being, remembering interactions and what they said, and how they talked and how much, in that moment you realized that you “shared blood” with this guy and you were glad!

Expecting Homo sapiens to believe their way into expressing joy when losing a loved one, would be pushing it, even for their God.

Thank you, Pommer. Good points!