Do Tolkien (LOTR etc) and CS Lewis (Narnia) promote witchcraft?

[Vanellus]

Referring to the writings not the authors.

This poll is in response to the OP in the
What was the last Christian movie you watched?
thread.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I don't see that they do.

They use non-Christian themes and objects in their writings, especially Tolkien, but they were very devout Christians and their writings do reflect that (I've seen people call the Lord of The Rings the 'most Catholic movies ever made' and I can't tell if they're joking or not), and so do the films.

Isn't The Lord of the Rings a story about the meek overcoming the mighty?
Isn't The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe similar to Christ overcoming death?

If anything else, I do need to rewatch The Lord of the Rings because they were great films, and they still hold up even today.

 

[bhillyard]

In the Narnia stories Lewis is almost explicit that this is a Christian story. Alan is the lion of Judah - the symbol of God. At the star of The Dawn Treader the animal in the picture is a lamb which, on second glance, becomes Asian. The lamb of God becoming God.
What more symbolism is needed!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Both works promote an alternate reality that most people recognize as fictional. Grimm's fairy tales, Aesop's fables also do this. Most people are able to enter into that fictional realm just as with science fiction and not come away trying to do anything dangerous.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Does the Scripture promote wickedness?

 

[paul1149]

At Acts 17 Paul borrows from the pagan pantheon at Athens, to make a valid spiritual point. I see works like those of Lewis and Tolkien to be doing nothing more than that. They use readily understood concepts to teach deeper Biblical principles. And they do it very effectively.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Not really sure. Never cared for the fantasy genre myself. (Sci-Fi, preferably the hard stuff, is more my taste.) Only read a little bit of the Narnia stuff that was in our reader late in elementary school. Thought it was drivel. Never had any interest in Tolkein (or Burrows or Lovecraft or Harry Potter, but that was for kids). I wouldn't worry about promoting witchcraft, it's all just fiction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So witchcraft is not a sin if it is promoted in a fantasy setting? What about cartoon porn? Is that entirely fictional and not real? I do not see the sin of witchcraft any different than say porn (which is fornication and or adultery, i.e. sexual immorality). They are both equally condemned by God. How folks cannot see this is beyond me. But people see what they want to see.

 

[Vanellus]

Can you give some textual examples (quotes from their works) showing how you think Lewis and Tolkien "promote witchcraft".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Mr. Tumnus


In The Chronicles of Narnia, many of these magical creatures are seen, including satyrs or fauns, such as Mr. Tumnus, who helped Lucy in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. One of the most well known fauns is the pagan god Pan. Like Pan, Mr. Tumnus appears as a half man, half goat creature. Pan is known for being a symbol of lust, immorality, and paganism. Disturbingly, Mr. Tumnus (the Pan look-alike) brings a little girl to his cottage. He offers her tea and plays music that enchants Lucy. Here's what C.S. Lewis wrote (from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe):

"Then to cheer himself up he [Mr. Tumnus] took out from its case on the dresser a strange little flute that looked as if it were made of straw and began to play.And the tune he played made Lucy want to cry and laugh and dance
and go to sleep all at the same time. It must have been hours later when she shook herself..." [3]

In the 2005 movie adaptation, this magic flute causes magical figures to appear, dancing in the flickering fireplace flames of the cottage. IMDB said of the faun's music: "He plays a hypnotic tune on a flute-like instrument, and Lucy actually sees shapes form in the flames of Tumnus' hearth fire, shapes of a man riding a unicorn, and fauns and dryads dancing." [4].


Aslan Verses the White Witch

The magic flute is just the starting point for more occultic elements that Lewis will put in his Narnia books. The very fact that a children's story is portraying an "evil" witch who has the power to put spells on an entire country to cause a perpetual winter is disturbing, knowing that real witches do exist today. Making a witch seem powerful and able to cause perpetual winter is not biblical because the devil does not have the power to do such a thing. The devil is the one behind all witchcraft. Satanists use a type of sorcery that knowingly requires the use of demons. The devil does not have the power to cause eternal winter or summer. But, in the Narnia world, this evil witch can cause everyone to suffer from the cold of winter.

Aslan, the lion character, appears on the scene to stop the evil witch and break her spell of winter. But, Aslan himself uses magic. The very way Lucy and her siblings arrived in Narnia was due to magic. But, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, a magic spell-book is used.



C.S. Lewis has young Lucy casting a spell from a magic spell-book, in a children's novel. The spell turns some invisible creatures visible. Earlier, they had been hexed by a wizard for their disobedience to him. He had cast a spell or hex that caused them to look very ugly. One of the creatures' children had read a spell from the spell-book to make them invisible.

When Lucy opened the spell-book, she found it fascinating. C.S. Lewis writes:
"She went up to the desk and laid her hand on the book; her fingers tingled when she touched it as if it were full of electricity. She tried to open it but couldn't at first; this, however, was only because it was fastened by two leaden clasps, and when she had undone these it opened easily enough. And what a book it was! It was written, not printed; written in a clear, even hand, with thick downstrokes and thin upstrokes, very large, easier than print, and so beautiful that Lucy stared at it for a whole minute and forgot about reading it. The paper was crisp and smooth and a nice smell came from it; and in the margins, and round the big coloured capital letters at the beginning of each spell, there were pictures." [5] [underlining added]


(The wizard, Coriakin, from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader)

Notice how C.S. Lewis describes this magic spell-book that the main character beholds with fascination? Children reading this novel are being told that magic spells and magic spell-books are "beautiful." Parents should be concerned what their children are being taught by Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and other fantasy stories. The magic in these stories and in the Narnia books is not just fictional.

Real witches use magic for many purposes. Spell-casting is practiced by witches today and magic spell books can be found in occult bookstores. Bob Johnson, a practitioner in the occult, wrote:

“The tools of magick are spells, talismans (charms and objects), potions, rituals, and ceremonies. They are all used to achieve a desired result. For example, witchcraft has spells for obtaining money.... Witchcraft spells can get you that raise...” [6]

What does the Bible say about witchcraft and magic? Deuteronomy 18 is very clear ...


Deuteronomy 18:9-14 (underlining added)[9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. [10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, [11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer."


Source:
End Times Blog: The Real Witchcraft of Narnia Exposed - Narnia's Occult Agenda

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A Former Witch Speaks Out About Narnia.

The late David J. Meyer, who was a witch that left witchcraft for Jesus Christ, wrote about Narnia and about Aslan, revealing some facts most people wouldn't know. Meyer wrote:

"As a former witch, astrologer, and occultist who has been saved by the grace of God, I know that the works of C.S. Lewis are required reading by neophyte witches, especially in the United States and England. This includes The Chronicles of Narnia, because it teaches neophyte, or new witches, the basic mindset of the craft. Isn’t it strange, though, that many “Christian” churches and organizations have used The Chronicles of Narnia as Sunday School curriculum?" [3]

You just heard him say that C.S. Lewis' books, including the Narnia books, are required reading for beginner (neophyte) witches. That should be enough reason to stop reading Lewis' books and watching Narnia movies.

Interestingly, a Catholic website mentioned that pagans (or Wiccans) read Narnia and Lord of the Rings, and enjoy them:

"Many pagans say that their favorite book in childhood was J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings. .... Pagans also read the Chronicles of Narnia series by C.S. Lewis, ...." [4]

David J. Meyer speaks of the significance of the time of year that The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe was released (Dec. 9, 2005). He writes:

"When I saw the release date of this new movie, I was not surprised. December 9th is the 13th day before the witches’ quarter-sabat of Yule. The full cold moon is midway between the release date and the sabat of Yule. The waxing moon is also directly on the equinox on the release date of the movie. This is far too precisely occultic to be coincidental, and the producers of the movie no doubt consulted upper-level witches regarding the perfect day to have the “Chronicles of Narnia” open." [3]

C.S. Lewis places Bacchus, a pagan god of wine, in Narnia.

Later in the article, Meyer wrote how C.S. Lewis included Bacchus, the pagan god of wine and lust in Prince Caspian: The Return to Narnia. Meyer wrote:

'Remember, Aslan the lion is esteemed to be the “Christ figure” by so many “Christian” teachers, but with that in mind, consider the following quotes from The Chronicles of Narnia." [3]

From Prince Caspian:


"The crowd and the dance round Aslan (for it had become a dance once more) grew so thick and rapid that Lucy was confused. She never saw where certain other people came from who were soon capering about among the trees. One was a youth, dressed only in a fawn-skin, with vine-leaves wreathed in his curly hair. His face would have been almost too pretty for a boy's, if it had not looked so extremely wild. You felt, as Edmund said when he saw him a few days later, "There's a chap who might do anything—absolutely anything." He seemed to have a great many names—Bromios, Bassareus, and the Ram were three of them. There were a lot of girls with him, as wild as he. There was even, unexpectedly, someone on a donkey. And everybody was laughing: and every body was shouting out, "Euan, euan, eu-oi-oi-oi." [5] (bold added)

Meyer writes:


(A Midsummer Eve festival in northern Europe
[Its roots go back to Europe's pagan past.])

'Then Bacchus and Silenus and the Maenads began a dance, far wilder than the dance of the trees; not merely a dance for fun and beauty (though it was that too) but a magic dance of plenty, and where their hands touched, and where their feet fell, the feast came into existence—sides of roasted meat that filled the grove with delicious smell, and wheaten cakes and oaten cakes, ...' [5]

Meyer writes:

"The above is clearly a description of a witches’ sabat of Midsummer or the Summer Solstice, and it is described as such in perfect detail. Certainly by now enough is known to denounce this work as satanic and antichrist." [3]

We need to briefly talk about the "wild girls" and "Maenads" that followed Bacchus, which C.S. Lewis' story speaks of.

The Paganism of Narnia and the Maenads

The Encyclopedia Britannica (website) describes the Maenads:

"Maenad, female follower of the Greek god of wine, Dionysus. The word maenad comes from the Greek maenades, meaning “mad” or “demented.” During the orgiastic rites of Dionysus, maenads roamed the mountains and forests performing frenzied, ecstatic dances and were believed to be possessed by the god. While under his influence they were supposed to have unusual strength, including the ability to tear animals or people to pieces (the fate met by the mythical hero and poet Orpheus). In Roman religion, Dionysus’s counterpart was Bacchus, and his female followers were called bacchantes." [6] (bold added)

These "mad" women were believed to be possessed by Dionysus (a.k.a. Bacchus). Demon possession was a problem during ancient times (see Luke 8:26-39) just as it is today. That being said, are Bacchus, his mad women, magic, and pagan gods what Christians should let their children read about and watch in the Narnia stories?

What does God's Word, the Bible, have to say about magic, paganism, and witchcraft?

Deuteronomy 18:9-14 (underlining added)[9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. [10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, [11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.[12] For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. [13] Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. [14] For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

God tells us to not learn the ways of the heathen in Jeremiah 10:2 — "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."

We Christians are to come out of the world, and be separate from its ungodly ways (2 Corinthians 6:14-18).

Source:
End Times Blog: The Real C.S. Lewis Exposed - Narnia's Occult Agenda

 

[Hans Blaster]

In The Chronicles of Narnia, many of these magical creatures are seen, including satyrs or fauns, such as Mr. Tumnus, who helped Lucy in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. One of the most well known fauns is the pagan god Pan.

Oooh, I guess you've got them now. Lewis was *obviously* a well known occult apologist, or perhaps it was fiction about fictional things.

 

[RDKirk]

In the Narnia stories Lewis is almost explicit that this is a Christian story. Alan is the lion of Judah - the symbol of God. At the star of The Dawn Treader the animal in the picture is a lamb which, on second glance, becomes Asian. The lamb of God becoming God.
What more symbolism is needed!

Interestingly, I watched an animated version of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" with my daughter back in the 80s when she was only five years old.

I didn't tell her what the story was about. It was just a cartoon we were sitting together and watching on television (and it wasn't the best of animations either, for that matter).

But when we got to the point that Asland had given himself up for the lives of the others, had been mercilessly tortured and then slaughtered, and had then been resurrected and is rejoicing with the two girls, my daughter touched me and whispered, "That was just like Jesus."

My wife had been very careful to attend to her bible teaching, but if a five-year-old could see what the story really was, anyone with Christian training should be able to see it.

Oh, and the final story in the chromicals, The Last Battle, is even more explicit about the Second Advent of Christ.

 

[RDKirk]

Does the Scripture promote wickedness?

...because there certainly are witches and sorcerers in the bible.

But in the bible, witches, sorcerers, and their magic are presented as negative things. And in fact, so it is in Tolkien and Lewis. Even those "good" people who purvey in magic do so with great restraint and caution, and in general in their stories magic ultimately brings evil, not good, and must ultimately be done away with.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...because there certainly are witches and sorcerers in the bible.

But in the bible, witches, sorcerers, and their magic are presented as negative things. And in fact, so it is in Tolkien and Lewis. Even those "good" people who purvey in magic do so with great restraint and caution, and in general in their stories magic ultimately brings evil, not good, and must ultimately be done away with.

Therein lies the problem. Good magic? There is no such thing. All magic is condemned by God because it is trying to operate by a power outside of God.

For example: Take the sin that you hate the most, and now imagine some guy writes a book about that sin not being a sin in his universe. Would you really say that would make it okay?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oooh, I guess you've got them now. Lewis was *obviously* a well known occult apologist, or perhaps it was fiction about fictional things.

You cannot turn sin into a fictional thing, and say it is not sin because it is fictional now. That would be like writing a story about how on another planet, they use sex to communicate to each other. Just because the story is fantasy does not mean the book is not promoting sin. For Jesus said that just looking upon a woman in lust (i.e. fantasy) can cause a person to be cast bodily into hellfire. So yeah, not sure the promotion of the sin of witchcraft that God condemns is okay if it is just thrown into a fantasy setting. It doesn't make that sin any less a sin.

See, the problem in our culture is that the sin of witchcraft is not really a problem for your average person like say porn, or other kinds of sins, and so it gets a free pass. But kids have wanted to dabble in the occult by watching these kinds of movies (Especially Harry Potter).

 

[RDKirk]

Therein lies the problem. Good magic? There is no such thing. All magic is condemned by God because it is trying to operate by a power outside of God.

For example: Take the sin that you hate the most, and now imagine some guy writes a book about that sin not being a sin in his universe. Would you really say that would make it okay?

I didn't say there was any good magic in the stories of Tokien and Lewis. I said there were "good" people who used magic...with restraint.

That's like saying there are "good" people who use violence...with restraint. In their stories, magic inevitably brings suffering. They are not like the Harry Potter stories of magic.

Ultimately, these are just stories attempting to convey a spiritual truth by analogy. If a five-year-old can watch "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" and get, "That was just like Jesus," then the story is doing the right thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't say there was any good magic in the stories of Tokien and Lewis. I said there were "good" people who used magic...with restraint.

That's like saying there are "good" people who use violence...with restraint. In their stories, magic inevitably brings suffering. They are not like the Harry Potter stories of magic.

Ultimately, these are just stories attempting to convey a spiritual truth by analog.

That is an oxymoron. You are saying they are good and they can use the sin of witchcraft. God's Word establishes morality and He does not say in His Word that there is a form of witchcraft that gets a free pass just because the person appears to be good in other ways. Can you imagine Simon the sorcerer not giving up his magic and yet still wanting to be a Christian? Yeah, that's not really gonna work. A person has to forsake their sins; Otherwise they never really were sorry or grieved over their sins before the Lord.

 

[RDKirk]

That is an oxymoron. You are saying they are good and they can use the sin of witchcraft. God's Word establishes morality and He does not say in His Word that there is a form of witchcraft that gets a free pass just because the person appears to be good in other ways. Can you imagine Simon the sorcerer not giving up his magic and yet still wanting to be a Christian? Yeah, that's not really gonna work. A person has to repent.

Can you imagine David doing evil and not bein evil?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can you imagine David doing evil and not bein evil?

David messed up, but he sought forgiveness with the Lord. David did not continue to murder and sleep around the rest of his life until he died. Big difference. The good guys in these so called films who use magic are actually evil in God's eyes and they would be stoned by God's people if they lived during the time of the OT. This should tell you how much God hates this kind of sin. But... many today think it is okay to feast their eyes on something sinful that God hates. Sure, they may never cast a spell themselves, but to fantasize about witchcraft is not really any different than fantasizing about a women in lust. Both are sins.