theological debates in roman catholic and eastern orthodox

[J3thekingofking]

Does the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian debate themselves? Or debate is only a thing for protestant Christian? I wonder RC / EO christian ever heard of stuff like limited atonement or irresistible grace..

 

[chevyontheriver]

Does the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian debate themselves? Or debate is only a thing for protestant Christian? I wonder RC / EO christian ever heard of stuff like limited atonement or irresistible grace..

Lots of debate within Catholicism. Not much on limited atonement or irresistable grace - we're pretty much solidly against those.

 

[zippy2006]

Does the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian debate themselves? Or debate is only a thing for protestant Christian? I wonder RC / EO christian ever heard of stuff like limited atonement or irresistible grace..

The preeminent debates on predestination and grace were held in the Catholic Church in the Congregatio de Auxiliis, which lasted for about 20 years. One of our closest parallels to irresistible grace would be what Bañezians call "efficacious grace".

 

[Bob Crowley]

There is not the same tension between Catholic and Orthodox that there is between Catholic and Protestant.

The following link gives what I believe to be a succinct summary of the differences and similarities between the Catholics and Orthodox.

What is the difference between the Orthodox and Catholic churches?

It includes the following paragraph -

Spiritually and theologically, far more unites the Western and Eastern Churches than divides. Through the centuries, numerous attempts have been made to unite them and these efforts are likely to continue through the third millennium.

That's why there is not the same amount of debate as there is between Catholic and Protestant.

 

[J3thekingofking]

Lots of debate within Catholicism. Not much on limited atonement or irresistable grace - we're pretty much solidly against those.

interesting, debates happens at what level? btw the fathers? since the authority is ultimately on the pope, what to debate about actually?

 

[J3thekingofking]

There is not the same tension between Catholic and Orthodox that there is between Catholic and Protestant.

The following link gives what I believe to be a succinct summary of the differences and similarities between the Catholics and Orthodox.

What is the difference between the Orthodox and Catholic churches?

It includes the following paragraph -



That's why there is not the same amount of debate as there is between Catholic and Protestant.

I think the dialog is not much btw RC and protestant, at least in the circle I know. My protestant friends just don't give a damn about the rc, they have a negative perception toward the rc and hold onto their bible alone hahaha.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I think the dialog is not much btw RC and protestant, at least in the circle I know. My protestant friends just don't give a damn about the rc, they have a negative perception toward the rc and hold onto their bible alone hahaha.

Most Catholics don't give a fig about Protestantism either. As far as I'm concerned the Catholic Church is closest to the truth, and that's speaking as an ex-Protestant.

Why bother worrying about the opposition if you're already closest to the truth?

 

[J3thekingofking]

Most Catholics don't give a fig about Protestantism either. As far as I'm concerned the Catholic Church is closest to the truth, and that's speaking as an ex-Protestant.

Why bother worrying about the opposition if you're already closest to the truth?

everyone thinks they are closer (or closest) to the truth, I just want to open up myself to be corrected, challenged etc.. it's good for sanctification. Most importantly we are all one family, I don't think in the heaven there are 3 separated heavens.

 

[FenderTL5]

There is not the same tension between Catholic and Orthodox that there is between Catholic and Protestant.

The following link gives what I believe to be a succinct summary of the differences and similarities between the Catholics and Orthodox.

What is the difference between the Orthodox and Catholic churches?

It includes the following paragraph -



That's why there is not the same amount of debate as there is between Catholic and Protestant.

On this we find agreement and I think your link is helpful.

 

[FenderTL5]

Does the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian debate themselves? Or debate is only a thing for protestant Christian? I wonder RC / EO christian ever heard of stuff like limited atonement or irresistible grace..

Most debate within Orthodoxy is not over doctrinal issues but centered around issues like those of jurisdiction or which calendar to use.

As for Orthodox vs Roman Catholic, there are significant enough doctrinal issues that the two Churches are no longer in communion. However, as Bob Crowley posted/linked, to most outsiders those issues are small and only significant to the adherents.

On the issues like limited atonement or irresistible grace, the Orthodox Church addressed those issues post haste (soon after they were established in the Canons of Dort in 1619 and the Westminster Confession in 1646) in the Jerusalem Synod in 1672. The result of that synod was The Confession of Dositheus (pdf file in English linked) which categorically rejected all of the innovations of Calvin.

fwiw, I was raised in the Independent Baptist Church, later attending the SBC. I was Chrismated into the Orthodox Church after a year+ of Catechism in 2014.

 

[fhansen]

Does the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian debate themselves? Or debate is only a thing for protestant Christian? I wonder RC / EO christian ever heard of stuff like limited atonement or irresistible grace..

Nearly every theological possibility has been entertained and discussed and debated over the centuries, sometimes amidst great controversy and struggle. Augustine, especially, contributed much towards our understanding of grace as He debated and battled against legalism/Pelagianism. His views were heavily employed in the 2nd Council of Orange’s canons. Others have pondered the role of man’s will vs Gods sovereignty, the nature of the atonement, etc developing different theories.

But in many other cases the beliefs and practices of the ancient churches were long settled because they received those from the beginning. The debates among Sola Scriptura adherents, especially, can be endless because Scripture cannot speak for itself where positions are not patently clear. So we end up with one group certain that their particular interpretation is correct while others believe that their, conflicting, interpretation is right. Ironically, perhaps, the doctrine of SS opened the door for more division than the unity of basic beliefs it sought to accomplish.

 

[J3thekingofking]

Most debate within Orthodoxy is not over doctrinal issues but centered around issues like those of jurisdiction or which calendar to use.

As for Orthodox vs Roman Catholic, there are significant enough doctrinal issues that the two Churches are no longer in communion. However, as Bob Crowley posted/linked, to most outsiders those issues are small and only significant to the adherents.

On the issues like limited atonement or irresistible grace, the Orthodox Church addressed those issues post haste (soon after they were established in the Canons of Dort in 1619 and the Westminster Confession in 1646) in the Jerusalem Synod in 1672. The result of that synod was The Confession of Dositheus (pdf file in English linked) which categorically rejected all of the innovations of Calvin.

fwiw, I was raised in the Independent Baptist Church, later attending the SBC. I was Chrismated into the Orthodox Church after a year+ of Catechism in 2014.

I couldn't open the pdf you gave.

 

[J3thekingofking]

Nearly every theological possibility has been entertained and discussed and debated over the centuries, sometimes amidst great controversy and struggle. Augustine, especially, contributed much towards our understanding of grace as He debated and battled against legalism. His views were heavily employed in the 2nd Council of Orange’s canons. Others have pondered the role of man’s will vs Gods sovereignty, the nature of the atonement, etc developing different theories.

But in many other cases the beliefs and practices of the ancient churches were long settled because they received those from the beginning. The debates among Sola Scriptura adherents, especially, can be endless because Scripture cannot speak for itself where positions are not patently clear. So we end up with one group certain that their particular interpretation is correct while others believe that their, conflicting, interpretation is right. Ironically, perhaps, the doctrine of SS opened the door for more division than the unity of basic beliefs it sought to accomplish.

I think you over exaggerating the division in the Protestant churches. They also folks who created their own non-denominational churches, but especially in the mainline churches like anglican, lutheran, methodist, reformed are able to profess the essential creed like the The Three Ecumenical Creeds. They are so many labels because of geographical reason and the spread of the gospel.

 

[FenderTL5]

I couldn't open the pdf you gave.

Try this

 

[Albion]

That's why there is not the same amount of debate as there is between Catholic and Protestant.

While that is probably true--as presented--it is also true that there are differences and there are counter-claims about which is the " true" church, and so on, going on between the RC and EO.

In addition, you are only talking about two denominations or communions. We can easily find two different Protestant denominations which are even more harmonious than what you think exists between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox.

However, if we bear in mind that there are thousands of Protestant denominations...and that some are quite unlike the others, it will appear that there is more rivalry among unspecified "Protestants."

Naturally, the opportunity is much greater if the number of churches under consideration is much larger (than two).

 

[fhansen]

I think you over exaggerating the division in the Protestant churches. They also folks who created their own non-denominational churches, but especially in the mainline churches like anglican, lutheran, methodist, reformed are able to profess the essential creed like the The Three Ecumenical Creeds. They are so many labels because of geographical reason and the spread of the gospel.

I don't disagree with that- even if I may still disagree with some of the things those churches agree on among themselves, including the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. But where I see the problem already developing was especially with some of the non-mainstream churches back at the time of the Reformation, then the 19th century here in America (JWs, for example, base their beliefs solely on Scripture) and perhaps on a broader scale today with evangelical churches, et al. Sola Scriptura really does open the door for developing a rather wide range of beliefs, with no control over whose beliefs are right as each reader becomes their own infallible pope for all practical purposes. And past creeds, professions, practices, conciliar decrees, etc are optional at the end of the day as they're all judged by Scripture, as the rule of faith, if one is to be truly consistent with the doctrine.

 

[Albion]

Sola Scriptura opens the door, you say. But is THAT a reason for putting man's opinions above the revealed word of God in Scripture--because it's easier to do or more orderly?

If so, there are all sorts of cults which have a stated set of doctrines and a leader to enforce them on the membership. Of course, the doctrines there are not correct, but they are easily understood, there us unanimity, and the membership is in order!

 

[fhansen]

Sola Scriptura opens the door, you say. But is THAT a reason for putting man's opinions above the revealed word of God in Scripture--because it's easier to do or more orderly?

Well, I certainly didn't suggest that the Catholic Church puts man's opinions above the word of God. The problem with SS becomes, which or whose door does one walk through?

And the churches that have a direct historical tie to the beginnings with whatever traditions and oral teachings and practices (including Sunday worship) were received and then to the councils that hammered out the canon of scripture itself, the doctrine of the trinity at Nicaea along with its creed, the teachings on grace at Orange (2nd council), etc, simply at least have some advantage in knowing what should be what in the Christian faith.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Protestant Debates

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it."
"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.
"Well, there's so much to live for!"
"Like what?"
"Are you religious?"
He said: "Yes."
I said: "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?"
"Christian."
"Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"
He said: "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."
I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Orthodox debate:

In the village of Omsk all was not well in the local Pokrov Parish. Every year, during Lent, at ‘Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes’, half of the congregation would make a metany at the waist, and half would make a full prostration. The little metanists would start whispering sharply, ‘No! No! From the waist!’ To which the great metanists would hiss back even louder, ‘Wrong! Full prostration! Who are you following, the Devil?!’ And fistfights would break out and the service could not even be completed.

Finally the war-weary parishioners decided to ask their priest, Fr Veniamin. ‘Batiushka, what is the tradition? In Lent, at “Blessed art Thou”, do we make a little metany, or a great metany?’ Knowing the rancour attached to the dispute, poor Fr Veniamin trembled, grew pale, then fainted dead away and fell backwards.

So next they went to the Skete of the Forerunner, and asked Fr Onouphry: ‘Batiushka, we want to know, we have a terrible argument at Omsk–what is the tradition? Because half the people say to make small metanies at “Blessed art Thou” now, and half say great metanies. And we start fighting, terrible, terrible. So, tell us, what is the Tradition?’ Seeing the ferocity in their faces, poor Hieromonk Anatoly simply fainted dead away.

Then someone shouted, ‘Let’s go to Elder Ioann and ask him!’ It was a marvellous idea. Surely the elder’s answer would bring peace, for he was respected by all, a native of Omsk, and his hoary 94 years guaranteed a knowledge of what the old tradition had been.

So a large crowd gathered at the elder’s dacha on the outskirts of town. Some 15 men from both sides entered the dacha, and found frail Elder Ioann lying on his bed. As he struggled to draw himself up and offer tea, they cut him off: ‘Elder Ioann, you have to help us! What is the Tradition? Every year in Lent, at “Blessed art Thou, O Lord”, half of the people at Pokrov make little metanies, and half the people great metanies, and we start to argue, and the service doesn’t even finish because of the fistfight!’ Then Elder Ioann said firmly, in his voice shaking with age, and with tears streaming down his joyful face, ‘That…IS… the Tradition!’