Even IF Christ rose again. . . So what?

[Albion]

yes and also the immortal "soul" concept is from greek philosophers.

Not exactly. The Pharisees, that famous Hebrew group, also taught life after death.

I always have found this point interesting because of all the criticism that the Bible otherwise directs at the Pharisees (legalists, hypocrites, etc.).

 

[eleos1954]

Not exactly. The Pharisees, that famous Hebrew group, also taught life after death.

I always have found this point interesting because of all the criticism that the Bible otherwise directs at the Pharisees (legalists, hypocrites, etc.).

from an immortal soul aspect? Where are the verses?

 

[eleos1954]

Not exactly. The Pharisees, that famous Hebrew group, also taught life after death.

I always have found this point interesting because of all the criticism that the Bible otherwise directs at the Pharisees (legalists, hypocrites, etc.).

Interesting read here:

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Albion]

this handles the topic pretty well:

Pharisee's vs. Sadducee's (torahfamily.org)

 

[Clare73]

from an immortal soul aspect? Where are the verses?

In Jesus' teaching at the dinner in the prominent Pharisee's house (Lk 14:1-17:10), he presented several parables: on Israel's unbelief (14:15-24), the cost of being his disciple (14:25-33), on spiritual death and rebirth (15:1-7, 8-10, 11-32), shrewdness in the Christian life (16:1-9); as well as teachings on faithfulness and trustworthiness (16:10-13), the sureness of God's word (16:16-18); and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (16:19-31), which is what is pertinent here.

Jesus presents Lazarus after death, not in oblivion, but in Abraham's bosom (by his side), both alive in their immortal spirits, while the immortal spirit of the rich man is in agony in the fire of Hades (v.24).
Likewise, with Paul in 2Co 5:6-9, where he equates absence from the body with presence with the Lord, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (v.8), and not in oblivion.

The NT presents the human spirit as immortal.
.

 

[eleos1954]

In Jesus' teaching at the dinner in the prominent Pharisee's house (Lk 14:1-17:10), he presented several parables: on Israel's unbelief (14:15-24), the cost of being his disciple (14:25-33), on spiritual death and rebirth (15:1-7, 8-10, 11-32), shrewdness in the Christian life (16:1-9); as well as teachings on faithfulness and trustworthiness (16:10-13), the sureness of God's word (16:16-18); and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (16:19-31), which is what is pertinent here.

Jesus presents Lazarus after death, not as in oblivion, but in Abraham's bosom (by his side), alive to take water to the rich man, and to warn the man's brothers.

Likewise, with Paul in 2Co 5:6-9, where he equates absence from the body and presence with the Lord, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (v.8), and not in oblivion.

The NT presents the human spirit as immortal.
.

The Lazarus story is a parable ... and it's focus is on the greedy rich ... it is not a teaching about an immortal spirit ... (I agree to disagree)

Paul states he would RATHER be absent from His body and present with the Lord ... of which any of us would prefer that as well. It is not a teaching that we have an immortal soul ... there is nothing immortal about us .... it is one of the main points when Jesus returns that is when we are changed and receive immortality.

1st Corinthians 15:53

In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

1 Timothy 6:16

14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One— the King of kings and Lord of lords— will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him

There is nothing immortal about us until Jesus returns.

 

[Clare73]

The Lazarus story is a parable ... and ... (I agree to disagree)
it's focus is on the greedy rich ... it is not a teaching about an immortal spirit

No, its focus is the agony of the immortal spirit of the rich man in the fire of Hades, (v.24) and the unbelief of the Jews (the five brothers), who would not believe even a man (Jesus Christ) who had come back from the dead.
And its focus on the point does not negate the premise (immortality of the spirits of Lazarus, Abraham and the rich man) on which the point is based.

Paul states he would RATHER be absent from His body and present with the Lord ... of which any of us would prefer that as well. It is not a teaching that we have an immortal soul ... there is nothing immortal about us .... it is one of the main points when Jesus returns that is when we are changed and receive immortality.

Php 1:21-24 makes clear that it is exactly what it is: where Paul prefers to be away from the body; that it is better by far to depart; that to die is gain. It is all preferable and better because death means he will be with Christ.
If death of the body means oblivion of his spirit, for what reason would he prefer death when to live is Christ (v.21)?

1st Corinthians 15:53

In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

The mortal to be clothed with the immortal is the body, not the spirit. The body will be immortal at the resurrection.

1 Timothy 6:16

14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One— the King of kings and Lord of lords— will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him

God alone is immortal in himself, the origin and source of the immortality of all spirits--angelic, fallen (Satanic) and human, all immortality comes from him, just as he alone has life in himself, and is the source of all life, physical, spirit and spiritual.

There is nothing immortal about us until Jesus returns.

Not according to Jesus and Paul.

 

[Palmfever]

“If you're Christian you believe in the resurrection of the BODY. If you're atheist you believe in the ultimate death of the BODY. Both views have varying degrees of materialism). If it's proven, Christ is divine. If its not proven, then back to a more atheistic, "rational" worldview. But when we take a broader gaze of history and take into account various pagan worldviews, I don't see how the "resurrection" belief is tenable.”

Christians do not believe in the resurrection of the body. Christians believe that we are a soul inhabiting a body, now in flesh and blood. We will receive a spiritual body upon resurrection, this body is done. In my opinion any who subscribe to the concept of humans simply being an amalgamation of particulate, self animated out of chaos faces an even greater challenge. The intricacies of life born of gas is comparable to flatulence giving birth to skunks. We can practice that forever and come up with a scent, never a living breathing skunk with the ability to procreate.

1 Cor, 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

Gen, 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Our bodies are made from dust, life came from God. That life carries on eternally.

Ecclesiates. 12:7 … then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Upon resurrection we receive an eternal spiritual body that can accommodate the eternal spirit.

In Christ

 

[eleos1954]

In Jesus' teaching at the dinner in the prominent Pharisee's house (Lk 14:1-17:10), he presented several parables: on Israel's unbelief (14:15-24), the cost of being his disciple (14:25-33), on spiritual death and rebirth (15:1-7, 8-10, 11-32), shrewdness in the Christian life (16:1-9); as well as teachings on faithfulness and trustworthiness (16:10-13), the sureness of God's word (16:16-18); and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (16:19-31), which is what is pertinent here.

Jesus presents Lazarus after death, not as in oblivion, but in Abraham's bosom (by his side), alive to take water to the rich man, and to warn the man's brothers.

Likewise, with Paul in 2Co 5:6-9, where he equates absence from the body and presence with the Lord, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (v.8), and not in oblivion.

The NT presents the human spirit as immortal.
.

The Lazarus story is a parable ... and it's focus is on the greedy rich ... it is not a teaching about an immortal spirit ... (I agree to disagree)

Paul states he would RATHER be absent from His body and present with the Lord ... of which any of us would prefer that as well. It is not a teaching that we have an immortal soul ... there is nothing immortal about us .... it is one of the main points when Jesus returns that is when we are changed and receive immortality.

1st Corinthians 15:53

In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

1 Timothy 6:16

14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One— the King of kings and Lord of lords— will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him

There is nothing immortal about us until Jesus returns.

 

[eleos1954]

No, its focus is on unbelief of the Jews, who would not believe even a man who had come back from the dead (Jesus Christ).
And its focus on the point does not negate the premise (immortality of the spirit) on which the parable is based.

It's more clearly stated in Php 1:21-24: where he prefers to be away from the body; that it is better by far to depart; that to die is gain. It is better because he will be with Christ,
If death of the body means oblivion of his spirit, for what reason would he prefer death when to live is Christ?

The mortal is the body, not the spirit. The body will be immortal at the resurrection.

He alone has immortality in himself, just as he alone has life in himself.


Nt according to Jesus and Paul.

I don't know how more clear this is ...

1 Timothy 6:16

14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One— the King of kings and Lord of lords— will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him

 

[Clare73]

I don't know how more clear this is. . .
14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15. . .the King of kings and Lord of lords— will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him

God alone is immortal in himself, the origin and source of all immortality--the angels, human spirits--all immortality comes from him, just as he alone is life in himself, and the source of all life--physical, spirit and spiritual.

Scripture does not contradict itself.
Your understanding of 1Ti 6:16 sets Scripture against itself in Php 1:21-24 and Lk 16:9-21, where
the immortal spirit of the rich man is in agony in the fire of Hades (v.24).

 

[eleos1954]

God alone is immortal in himself, the origin and source of all immortality--the angels, human spirits--all immortality comes from him, just as he alone is life in himself, and the source of all life--physical, spirit and spiritual.

Scripture does not contradict itself.
Your understanding of 1Ti 16:16 sets Scripture against itself in Php 1:21-24.

Yes immortality does come from Him ... but we don't become immortal until He returns.

1 Corinthians 15:54

English Standard Version
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Back up in Philippians 1:5 he is referring to the "day of Christ Jesus" (when He returns) also in verse 9 ... the context is in the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

Yes immortality does come from Him ... but we don't become immortal until He returns.

1 Corinthians 15:54

English Standard Version

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Again, two things:

1) In that passage (1Co 15:35-54), Paul is speaking of the body:
sown perishable (subject to decay), raised imperishable (v.42);
sown a natural body, raised a spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful, imperishable) body (v.45), in contrast
to the natural body, "flesh and blood" (v.50) which is sinful, dishonorable, perishable, weak (vv. 42-43);
which mortal (subject to death), perishable (subject to decay) body must clothe itself
with the imperishable (not subject to decay), immortal (not subject to death) body of the resurrection, because the natural body--flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (v.50).

2) Your understanding of 1Ti 6:16 contradicts Paul (Php 1:21-24) and Jesus' parable (Lk 16:9-31) where
the immortal spirit of the rich man is in agony in the fire of Hades (v.24),
both passages showing immortality of the spirit,
as well as misapplies to our spirit what Paul teaches regarding our resurrection body (1Co 15:35-54).

Since Scripture does not contradict itself; your understanding is incorrect.

 

[eleos1954]

Again, two things:

1) In that passage (1Co 15:35-54), Paul is speaking of the body:
sown perishable (subject to decay), raised imperishable (v.42);
sown a natural body, raised a spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful, imperishable) body (v.45), in contrast
to the natural body, "flesh and blood" (v.50) which is sinful, dishonorable, perishable, weak (vv. 42-43);
which mortal (subject to death), perishable (subject to decay) body must clothe itself
with the imperishable (not subject to decay), immortal (not subject to death) body of the resurrection, because the natural body--flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (v.50).

2) Your understanding of 1Ti 6:16 contradicts Jesus' parable (Lk 16:9-31) and
Paul (Php 1:21-24), both on immortality of the spirit,
as well as misapplies to our spirit what Paul teaches regarding our resurrection body (1Co 15:35-54).

Since Scripture does not contradict itself; your understanding is incorrect.

Yeah ... when He returns we get new bodies .... heavenly ones.


1 Corinthians 15:36-50
You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.

Never in Scripture are the words "immortal" or "immortality" used in reference to mankind in his earthly, fallen existence. Christian believers "seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life" (Rom. 2:7, KJV).

We do not have immortality now; we are looking forward to it. Immortality at the second advent (1 Cor. 15:51-54) is possible because Christ earned it for us on Calvary (2 Tim. 1:10). By comparison with earthly humans, God "only hath immortality" (1 Tim. 6:16).

Every believer has the assurance that Christ will bestow immortality upon him at the second advent.

Paul was looking forward to the resurrection of the body at the second advent (Rom. 8:11, 22, 23; Phil. 3:20, 21; 1 Cor. 15:4-44). His focus was not on being a disembodied spirit after death but on being with Christ on the resurrection morning (2 Tim. 4:8; 1 Cor. 15:51-54).

 

[Clare73]

Yeah ... when He returns we get new bodies .... heavenly ones.


1 Corinthians 15:36-50
You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.

Never in Scripture are the words "immortal" or "immortality" used in reference to mankind in his earthly, fallen existence. Christian believers "seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life" (Rom. 2:7, KJV).

We do not have immortality now; we are looking forward to it.

Yes, as Paul shows in 1Co 15:36-50, our bodies do not have immortality now.

But as Paul shows (Php 1:21-24) and
Jesus shows (Lk 16:9-31) in the agony of the rich man's immortal spirit in the fire of Hades (v.24),
our spirits are immortal now, before the resurrection.

Immortality at the second advent (1 Cor. 15:51-54) is possible because Christ earned it for us on Calvary (2 Tim. 1:10). By comparison with earthly humans, God "only hath immortality"
(1 Tim. 6:16).

Paul is referring there back to his doxology of 1:17.

Every believer has the assurance that Christ will bestow immortality upon him at the second advent.
Paul was looking forward to the resurrection of the body at the second advent (Rom. 8:11, 22, 23; Phil. 3:20, 21; 1 Cor. 15:4-44).

His focus was not on being a disembodied spirit after death but on being with Christ on the resurrection morning (2 Tim. 4:8; 1 Cor. 15:51-54).

His focus was on it being better by far to depart, on prefering to be away from the body (so if his spirit is in oblivion who/what is "away from the body"), because to die is gain.
It is all preferable and better because death means he will be with Christ, which is his focus.

So if, as you say, death of the body means oblivion of his spirit, for what reason would he prefer death when to live is Christ?

Paul makes absence from the body equivalent to presence with the Lord, which was his focus.

Again, your understanding of 1Ti 6:16 makes Scripture contradict itself in Jesus' parable (Lk 16:19-31) where the immortal spirit of the rich man is in agony in the fire of Hades (v.24),
as well as in Paul's declaration (Php 1:21-24) that it is far better to depart (to die), which could only be better if his spirit is immortal.

Scripture is exceedingly plain and clear on this. . .you just don't believe it.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes, as Paul shows in 1Co 15:36-50, our bodies do not have immortality now.

But as Paul (Php 1:21-24) and Jesus show (Lk 16:9-31), our spirits are immortal now.

Paul is referring there back to his doxology of 1:17.

His focus was on it being better by far to depart, on prefering to be away from the body,because to die is gain.
It is all preferable and better because death means he will be with Christ, which is his focus.

So if, as you say, death of the body means oblivion of his spirit, for what reason would he prefer death when to live is Christ?

Paul makes absence from the body equivalent to presence with the Lord, which was his focus.

Again, your understanding of 1Ti 6:16 makes Scripture contradict itself in Jesus's parable (Lk 16:9-31),
as well as in Paul's declaration (Php 121-24) that it is far better to depart (to die).

In the Old Testament, man is referred to as a "soul" (Hebrew nephesh) more than 130 times. The first place we find nephesh in reference to mankind is in the second chapter of Genesis: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7, KJV).

The word translated "soul" in this verse is again the Hebrew word nephesh. Other translations of the Bible state that man became a living "being" or "person." This verse does not say that Adam had an immortal soul; rather it says that God breathed into Adam the "breath of life," and Adam became a living soul. At the end of his days, when the breath of life left Adam, he died and returned to dust.

The Old Testament plainly teaches that the soul dies. God told Adam and Eve, two "living souls," that they would "surely die" if they disobeyed Him (Genesis 2:17). God also told Adam that He had taken him from the dust of the earth and he would return to dust (Genesis 3:19).

Among the plainer statements in the Bible about what happens to the soul at death are Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20. Both passages clearly state that "the soul who sins shall die." Again, the word for "soul" here is nephesh. In fact, this same word was even used of corpses—dead bodies (see Leviticus 22:4; Numbers 5:2; Numbers 6:11; Numbers 9:6-10).

Not only do all these scriptures show that the soul indeed can and does die, but the soul is identified as a physical being—not a separate spirit entity with existence independent of its physical host.

 

[Clare73]

In the Old Testament, man is referred to as a "soul" (Hebrew nephesh) more than 130 times. The first place we find nephesh in reference to mankind is in the second chapter of Genesis: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7, KJV).

The word translated "soul" in this verse is again the Hebrew word nephesh. Other translations of the Bible state that man became a living "being" or "person." This verse does not say that Adam had an immortal soul; rather it says that God breathed into Adam the "breath of life," and Adam became a living soul. At the end of his days, when the breath of life left Adam, he died and returned to dust.

The Old Testament plainly teaches that the soul dies. God told Adam and Eve, two "living souls," that they would "surely die" if they disobeyed Him (Genesis 2:17). God also told Adam that He had taken him from the dust of the earth and he would return to dust (Genesis 3:19).

Among the plainer statements in the Bible about what happens to the soul at death are Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20. Both passages clearly state that "the soul who sins shall die." Again, the word for "soul" here is nephesh. In fact, this same word was even used of corpses—dead bodies (see Leviticus 22:4; Numbers 5:2; Numbers 6:11; Numbers 9:6-10).

Not only do all these scriptures show that the soul indeed can and does die, but the soul is identified as a physical being—not a separate spirit entity with existence independent of its physical host.

Again, as demonstrated from the NT by Paul (Php 1:21-24) and
Jesus (Lk 16:19-31), where the immortal spirit of the rich man is in agony in the fire of Hades (v.24),
Scripture is exceedingly plain and clear on the immortality of the human spirit. . .

you just don't believe it.
.

 

[NBB]

Converting and believing in Jesus, is more about the Holy spirit convincing you, than any human words or bible recitation alone could do.

Thats why Peter with his speech converted like 5000 people, they were touched by the Holy spirit. There is no human persuasive words in this that can work as well.

 

[eleos1954]

I know we are mortal. When we were created we received the breath of life from God
and became a living being. God didn't "stuff" an immortal soul into us .... we became a soul, which is a living being. The animals have the same breath of life as well.

Before Adam and Eve sinned ... they had access to the tree of life ... of which provided them immortality .... after they sinned God had the angels guard the tree of life ... did so
else Adam and Eve would have become immortal while in a sinful state.

There are many many MANY verses about the state of the dead being termed as a sleep ... including by Jesus Himself.

so you don't believe it .... some don't .... I would encourage others to study if out further.

The immortal soul belief is right out of Egypt ... and then propagated through greek philosophy and then crept into the churches.

Jesus said: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28).(1)

this verse proves that the soul, like the body, can be destroyed in hell. If the soul can be destroyed, it is not immortal and it will not suffer eternally in hellfire. The message of the text is that, although we should not fear man who can destroy the body, we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, and who will destroy the wicked at the end of time (Rev. 20:9, 14, 15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

Where does it say in His Word the unsaved receive immortality?

Matthew 10:28 is thoroughly consistent with Jesus' overall teaching that the "soul" or "life" of the unbeliever will be destroyed eternally. That being the case the soul is not immortal.

and no I don't believe it because His Word does not teach of an immortal "soul".

I agree to disagree but encourage others to carefully study this out for themselves through His Word.

 

[NBB]

The Lazarus story is a parable ... and it's focus is on the greedy rich ... it is not a teaching about an immortal spirit ... (I agree to disagree)

Paul states he would RATHER be absent from His body and present with the Lord ... of which any of us would prefer that as well. It is not a teaching that we have an immortal soul ... there is nothing immortal about us .... it is one of the main points when Jesus returns that is when we are changed and receive immortality.

1st Corinthians 15:53

In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

1 Timothy 6:16

14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One— the King of kings and Lord of lords— will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him

There is nothing immortal about us until Jesus returns.

'The body goes to the dust, and the spirit to God who gave it' ecclesiastes.