Not so complicated...

[Douggg]

Whether Michael is preincarnate Jesus.....or merely God's chief angel....He is identified in the same book - Daniel - as the "great Prince who protects your people". He's working in unison with God (as Gabriel was as well) - not opposing Him.

No-one is claiming Michael is opposing God.

Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince
......and I'm not seeing any other identified as Prince. The narrative seems to conclude with this:

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Messiah the prince in Daniel 9:25 is Jesus. Jesus is the rightful King of Israel/messiah who came in the name of the Lord.

The prince who shall come will be the King of Israel/messiah in the eyes of the Jews (until he betrays them), but comes in his own name. John 5:43.

You cited Acts 5:31 "Prince and Savior". Savior in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sin to Israel.

*You are probably not aware, but in Judaism the messiah is not considered "a savior". To them, God is the only savior, and only in terms of saving from physical harm. To the Jews, the messiah is only a man, and is not God in any way.

The Antichrist thus will not be claiming to be a savior from the consequences of sin.
________________________________________

*one of the problems I have in these discussions with my fellow Christians is most don't have a good knowledge of what Jews (Judaism) believe. So I have to educate, but even so, I get challenged about what I am trying educate - without the challenger even going directly to the Jews themself and hearing what they have to say, even when I give links.

I have been discussing with the Jews (Judaism) directly since 2004 and over 10,000 post I have made at their site(s) and have picked up learning about a lot of what they believe. And how it will work into the end time events.

 

[Douggg]

Preincarnate Jesus has many names. Here are a few:

The Word (John 1:1)

"the angel of the LORD” (Genesis 16:7)

"presence” of the LORD (Exodus 33:14)

Yahweh (Exodus 3:2–6; Judges 6:14)

But one of the names is not Michael.

 

[mkgal1]

The prince who shall come will be the King of Israel/messiah in the eyes of the Jews (until he betrays them), but comes in his own name. John 5:43.

In my opinion.....this is writing a separate narrative from what the actual storyline is.

 

[Douggg]

In my opinion.....this is writing a separate narrative from what the actual storyline is.

narrative? storyline?

What are you talking about ?

 

[mkgal1]

You are probably not aware, but in Judaism the messiah is not considered "a savior". To them, God is the only savior, and only in terms of saving from physical harm. To the Jews, the messiah is only a man, and is not God in any way.

The Antichrist thus will not be claiming to be a savior from the consequences of sin.
________________________________________

*one of the problems I have in these discussions with my fellow Christians is most don't have a good knowledge of what Jews (Judaism) believe. So I have to educate, but even so, I get challenged about what I am trying educate - without the challenger even going directly to the Jews themself and hearing what they have to say, even when I give links.

I have been discussing with the Jews (Judaism) directly since 2004 and over 10,000 post I have made at their site(s) and have picked up a lot of what they believe. And how it will work into the end time events.

I love Jews, Atheists, Muslims and everyone else.....but I don't base my theology on what they believe. Only the Holy Spirit will lead us into Truth (and please don't misunderstand that to mean I'm claiming to have it all figured out. I definitely do not make that claim).

 

[mkgal1]

But one of the names is not Michael.

That's one opinion.

 

[mkgal1]

narrative? storyline?

What are you talking about ?

The Bible makes a whole lot more sense (IMO)when we perceive it as one cohesive story about God reconciling humanity to Himself.

Others change the plot completely to be about an antichist as the main character.

 

[Douggg]

The Bible makes a whole lot more sense (IMO)when we perceive it as one cohesive story about God reconciling humanity to Himself.

Others change the plot completely to be about an antichist as the main character.

This forum is
"Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum"

The great opposer to Jesus in the end times events leading up to Jesus's return, will at one time be the Antichrist, King of Israel/messiah, coming in his own name.

There are other forums for different discussions regarding theology. Perhaps you should be discussing some of your thoughts in a different forum than this one.

 

[mkgal1]

one of the problems I have in these discussions with my fellow Christians is most don't have a good knowledge of what Jews (Judaism) believe. So I have to educate, but even so, I get challenged about what I am trying educate - without the challenger even going directly to the Jews themself and hearing what they have to say, even when I give links.

The Bible isn’t written about modern Judaism (i am aware that we disagree about that). It would illuminate the Scriptures to learn about ancient Biblical Judaism....as that is what points to Christ Jesus:

This is what I believe is referred to in John 5:43.....men *did* come in their own name....before and after Jesus:

Acts 5:35-37
“Men of Israel,” he said, “consider carefully what you are about to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men joined him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and drew away people after him. He too perished, and all his followers were scattered.
​

......but as Jesus had said at Ceasaria Philippi...."the gates of Hades will not prevail against the Church":

Acts 5:38-39
So in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone. Let them go! For if their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God.”​

 

[Douggg]

I love Jews, Atheists, Muslims and everyone else.....but I don't base my theology on what they believe. Only the Holy Spirit will lead us into Truth (and please don't misunderstand that to mean I'm claiming to have it all figured out. I definitely do not make that claim).

No one is advocating that you base your Christians faith on what other religions believe.

 

[Douggg]

The Bible isn’t written about modern Judaism (i am aware that we disagree about that).

You make statements like you do because you are unwilling to go to the Jews themselves and engage them directly regarding the messiah being a Savior from the consequences of their sins.

Go to this link, open a thread if they (the Jews) believe that the messiah is (will be) a savior.

Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums - General Judaism Forum

 

[BABerean2]

Do you believe that Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25 is Jesus?

What I believe does not matter.
What does the text say?

The angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised previously in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Daniel 9:24-27 is mainly about the ministry of the Messiah.

Daniel 9:24 is found fulfilled in Hebrews 10:16-18, and Acts of the Apostles 10:38.

There is no singular antecedent in the passage for an "antichrist".


.

 

[mkgal1]

No-one is claiming Michael is opposing God.

In the OP......"the prince" is being linked with the "little horn"....the Antichrist>the revealed man of sin>the beast.

The prince thread that I see running throughout Scripture is in alliance with "God's side".....but the "little horn" ...the beast.....antichrists all oppose God.

 

[mkgal1]

No one is advocating that you base your Christians faith on what other religions believe.

Then why would you post this?

one of the problems I have in these discussions with my fellow Christians is most don't have a good knowledge of what Jews (Judaism) believe. So I have to educate, but even so, I get challenged about what I am trying educate - without the challenger even going directly to the Jews themself and hearing what they have to say, even when I give links

 

[mkgal1]

You make statements like you do because you are unwilling to go to the Jews themselves and engage them directly regarding the messiah being a Savior from the consequences of their sins.

It would do nothing to help my theology to do that any more than if I were to ask my Atheist and Muslim friends what they believe. The same offer of forgiveness is the same promise for us all now.

 

[mkgal1]

Go to this link, open a thread if they (the Jews) believe that the messiah is (will be) a savior.

Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums - General Judaism Forum

Explain to me why their beliefs matter to you (beyond just getting to know them as fellow humans)? They identify as Jews and not as Christians for a reason. That's a distinction between the two religions.

Theirs is not Biblical Judaism though. That religion died and disappeared in 70 AD.

 

[mkgal1]

The Bible isn’t written about modern Judaism (i am aware that we disagree about that). It would illuminate the Scriptures to learn about ancient Biblical Judaism....as that is what points to Christ Jesus:

You make statements like you do because you are unwilling to go to the Jews themselves and engage them directly regarding the messiah being a Savior from the consequences of their sins.

I make statements like that because it's true.

Biblical Judaism concludes with Christ as Savior, Redeemer, Prince of Peace, and the One who fulfilled this (along with all the other things written about Messiah):

Daniel 9:24
to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

​

 

[mkgal1]

But one of the names is not Michael.

John Wesley: "Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ."

John Gill: "and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated Angel; who is "one", or "the first of the chief Princes""

Geneva: "even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of angels."

from John Calvin
"Michael may mean an angel; but I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people....The angel...calls Michael the mighty prince. As if he had said, Michael should be the guardian and protector of the elect people" (Calvin, Commentary on Daniel 12:1, Lecture 65).

 

[mkgal1]

This forum is
"Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum"

The great opposer to Jesus in the end times events leading up to Jesus's return, will at one time be the Antichrist, King of Israel/messiah, coming in his own name.

There are other forums for different discussions regarding theology. Perhaps you should be discussing some of your thoughts in a different forum than this one.

I'm discussing eschatology (proper eschatology begins in Genesis and runs all throughout Scripture). But it's only any opinion to put that belief forth (what's quoted) without full Scriptural support.

Do you agree that Revelation 12 is an "end time" passage?

 

[Douggg]

I'm discussing eschatology (proper eschatology begins in Genesis and runs all throughout Scripture). But it's only any opinion to put that belief forth (what's quoted) without full Scriptural support.

Do you agree that Revelation 12 is an "end time" passage?

It seems to me like you are trying to prove that Jesus is Michael.

You are getting into other areas of theology than eschatology when you go down that road.

Plus, it is clear from Daniel 10:13, that Michael is one of the angels.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.