Not so complicated...

[chad kincham]

Do you expect Christ to die again?


Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.


Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


.

His death on a cross paid the price for sins, it didn’t end sins, in case you haven’t noticed, there is a plethora of sins in the world.

Sins end when Jesus sets up His kingdom, and Satan, the tempter to sin, is bound a thousand years.

2. (Dan 9:24 b) What will be accomplished in the seventy weeks.

To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

a. To finish the transgression: This means that transgression itself will be finished. Taken literally this means establishing an entirely new order on earth, with an end to man’s rebellion against God.

i. “The culmination of appointed years will witness the conclusion of man’s ‘transgression’ or ‘rebellion’ against God - a development most naturally entered into with the establishment of an entirely new order on earth. This seems to require nothing less than the inauguration of the kingdom of God on earth.” (Archer)

b. To make an end of sins: Taking these words at face value, this means not only the end of the guilt of sin, but an end of sin itself. It means to “seal up” or “restrain” sins. This looks to a new, redeemed world.

c. To make reconciliation for iniquity: Man’s iniquity must be reconciled to God’s justice and holiness. This work was clearly accomplished at the cross.

d. To bring in everlasting righteousness: One might take this in an individual sense, but there have always been righteous individuals. Taking the statement at face value, this means a new order of society brought in by the Messiah.

e. To seal up vision and prophecy: This speaks of both the ending and fulfillment of prophecy, concluding the final stage of human history and culminating with the reign of the Son of God.

i. “It must include his enthronement.” (Archer)

f. To anoint the most holy: Taken at its simple, literal meaning, this refers to a place, not a person. There is a most holy place - the most holy place of the temple - that will be anointed and blessed.

g. Taken as a whole, Gabriel made a remarkable announcement to Daniel. He told him that each of these amazing things would happen within the period of seventy weeks.

i. Looking back in history, we can only say this things have each been fulfilled if we ignore their plain, literal meaning.

 

[chad kincham]

What is now the temple of God in the New Covenant?
What is the "chief cornerstone" of that temple?

Is it a rebuilt temple in earthly Jerusalem?

1Pe 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
1Pe 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."
1Pe 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"
1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.


.

You of course completely miss the point.

It’s the unbelieving, animal sacrificing Jews temple, in Israel, who are still trying to keep the old covenant who have the temple that the son of perdition steps into.

So quoting scripture about Jesus and the heavenly temple is completely irrelevant.

God is telling us what will happen, in prophecy, He’s not endorsing their unbelief in Jesus, or keeping mosaic law

The unbelieving nation of Israel is where Jesus in fact returns to, at His return, to Mount Olive, in Jerusalem, and He’s there to save Jerusalem

Do you expect Christ to die again?


Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.


Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


.

 

[chad kincham]

What is now the temple of God in the New Covenant?
What is the "chief cornerstone" of that temple?

Is it a rebuilt temple in earthly Jerusalem?

1Pe 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
1Pe 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."
1Pe 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"
1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.


.

You of course completely miss the point.

It’s the unbelieving, animal sacrificing Jews temple, in Israel, who are still trying to keep the old covenant who have the temple that the son of perdition steps into.

So quoting scripture about Jesus and the heavenly temple is completely irrelevant.

God is telling us what will happen, in prophecy, He’s not endorsing their unbelief in Jesus, or keeping mosaic law

The unbelieving nation of Israel is where Jesus in fact returns to, at His return, to Mount Olive, in Jerusalem, and He’s there to save Jerusalem

 

[BABerean2]

You of course completely miss the point.

It’s the unbelieving, animal sacrificing Jews temple, in Israel, who are still trying to keep the old covenant who have the temple that the son of perdition steps into.

So quoting scripture about Jesus and the heavenly temple is completely irrelevant.

God is telling us what will happen, in prophecy, He’s not endorsing their unbelief in Jesus, or keeping mosaic law

The unbelieving nation of Israel is where Jesus in fact returns to, at His return, to Mount Olive, in Jerusalem, and He’s there to save Jerusalem

You fail to understand there are two different Jerusalems in the Book of Revelation.


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



If you think there will be a second chance at salvation on the day of His Second Coming, you are ignoring Paul's words below.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church.

.

.

 

[nolidad]

Jesus is the rightful King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord. The Antichrist will be anointed the King of Israel, but coming in his own name.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

What you quote is true!

But it has nothing to do with the antichrist being crowned king of Israel. He is a gentile and right now Israel is a democracy. To move to a monarchy would require a huge revival which I believe will happen. but to anoint anyone (the levitical priesthood would do that) would require the candidate to prove He is of the approved line of David! And there is no mention of any king ruling Israel from the time of the diaspora to when Messiah returns.

But to your EU claims, you need to read closer the prophecy of the fourth beast kingdom. Then you will see it cannot be the EU or a "revived Roman Empire" as many of us were taught to believe.

Dan. 7:

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

We know the fourth beast starts with Rome or more properly with teh system of rule Rome established (Imperialism-diverse from the rest) and this fourth beast survives throughout the time of the gentiles so let us see some other characteristics of this fourth beast.

Verse 23 shall devour the entire earth! Rome never conquered the entire world, the civilized world or the known world. so there must be a time where there is an Imperialistic form of Govt. that rules the world.

verse24 "out of this kingdom" so when the one world govt. reigns- the ten kings which take over the kingdom (world) arise, so then there are ten "kings" that rule the world.

verse 24: A new horn different from the other ten will arise. He will conquer three of the ten and from revelation we know the other 7 give him their allegiance- thus the antichrist rules the world.

verse 25: At the mid point of the 70th week of Daniel He causes the AOD and he will call for the genocide spoken in revelation for the final 3 1/2 years.

Hope this helps.

Books like "things to come" Were excellent books, but incomplete in their study.

 

[Douggg]

But it has nothing to do with the antichrist being crowned king of Israel. He is a gentile and right now Israel is a democracy. To move to a monarchy would require a huge revival which I believe will happen.

Happens as a result of and after Gog/Magog. I agree with you though that at present there is a lot of apathy among them in Israel regarding the messiah that the religious Jews in Israel are looking for.

but to anoint anyone (the levitical priesthood would do that) would require the candidate to prove He is of the approved line of David! And there is no mention of any king ruling Israel from the time of the diaspora to when Messiah returns.

The person will no longer be the King of Israel/messiah thought-to-be at Jesus's return. The person will be the beast, dictator of the EU, for the last 42 months of the 7 years.

the little horn>prince who shall come>the Antichrist>the revealed man of sin>the beast

nolidad, you were referring me to Daniel 7. The way the bible is structured, there is a progression of information about the person as the chapters work their way to the end.

So while in Daniel 7, the little horn meets his end at Jesus's return, at the end of his time, he is the beast.

Being the Antichrist is one stage in the progression. It lasts until the person reveals himself to be the man of sin, and not the thought-to-be King of Israel/messiah by the Jews after all.

 

[chad kincham]

You fail to understand there are two different Jerusalems in the Book of Revelation.

Which has absolutely no bearing in the discussion, whatsoever.

Jesus didn’t warn those Jews in Judea to flee the heavenly Jerusalem when the son of perdition steps into the temple, but the earthly Jerusalem.

 

[BABerean2]

Which has absolutely no bearing in the discussion, whatsoever.

Jesus didn’t warn those Jews in Judea to flee the heavenly Jerusalem when the son of perdition steps into the temple, but the earthly Jerusalem.

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)


Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　


Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)


Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)


Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.)　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)


Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　


Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　


Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

[Douggg]

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)


Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　


Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)


Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)


Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.)　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)


Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　


Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　


Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

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Luke 21:20 and Matthew24:15 are two different signs to flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20 does not refer to Daniel the prophet, and the sign is about armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Matthew 24 does refer to Daniel the prophet, and the sign is the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place, which Daniel 12 that content according to the text is time of the end.

 

[BABerean2]

Luke 21:20 and Matthew24:15 are two different signs to flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20 does not refer to Daniel the prophet, and the sign is about armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Matthew 24 does refer to Daniel the prophet, and the sign is the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place, which Daniel 12 that content according to the text is time of the end.

Do you understand the probability of finding the following common word elements in two different passages without them being parallel accounts?

You cannot understand Matthew 24:15, without understanding the reference to Hanukkah found in John 10:22.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


The probability is zero that these passages are not parallel accounts, since no other two passages of two verses in the Bible contain the same word elements in the same sequence.

Any unbiased witness that understands probability would have to admit these are parallel passages.

.

 

[chad kincham]

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)


Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　


Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)


Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)


Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.)　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)


Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　


Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　


Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Guess you’ve never learned about foreshadow fulfillment of prophecy.

There’s a gathering together of the elect in Matthew 24 which is Jesus’ second coming.

That event hasn’t happened yet.

Jesus comes again and with all the saints in Zechariah 14, lands on mount Olive, splits it in two, with a chasm in between the two halves.

Therefore, the second coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is yet future.

Also Paul states in Romans 11 that when the deliver comes out of Zion, all of currently blinded Israel will see Him and believe and be saved.

This event has yet to occur.

Paul in 2 Thessalonians states that we won’t be gathered together to be with Jesus until after a great apostasy, the son of perdition steps into the temple and stops the sacrifice, going right back to the seventieth week of Daniel.

Since the Jews haven’t all converted to belief in Jesus as Messiah, and since Mount Olive is not split in half...

And since Jesus said the great tribulation will be the worst time of trouble the world will experience, and since no events in 70 AD or any past time in history has occurred that’s worse than the whole world being at war with 70 million deaths in WW2...

Then the great tribulation, has yet to occur.

Thus a foreshadow fulfillment occurred in 70 AD but the actual fulfillment of the prophecy has not happened.

 

[Douggg]

You cannot understand Matthew 24:15, without understanding the reference to Hanukkah found in John 10:22.

Hanukkah is not part of the sign in Luke 21:20. The sign in Luke 21:20 is armies surrounding Jerusalem. And there is no reference to Daniel the prophet in Luke 21:20.

The abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15 is reference to Daniel 12, which in context of Daniel 12 is time of the end.

Both Luke 21:20 and Matthew 24:15 were future events of when Jesus spoke of them. Hanukkah was over a hundred years earlier and has no bearing on either Luke 21:20, nor Matthew 24:15.

 

[BABerean2]

Hanukkah is not part of the sign in Luke 21:20. The sign in Luke 21:20 is armies surrounding Jerusalem. And there is no reference to Daniel the prophet in Luke 21:20.

The abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15 is reference to Daniel 12, which in context of Daniel 12 is time of the end.

Both Luke 21:20 and Matthew 24:15 were future events of when Jesus spoke of them. Hanukkah was over a hundred years earlier and has no bearing on either Luke 21:20, nor Matthew 24:15.

Are you claiming Daniel did not predict the desecration of the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes?


.

 

[Douggg]

Are you claiming Daniel did not predict the desecration of the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes?


.

I am saying the prophecy of the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus was prophesying future of himself in Matthew 24:15 is in Daniel 12, which in the context of Daniel 12 is time of the end in the text.

 

[BABerean2]

Also Paul states in Romans 11 that when the deliver comes out of Zion, all of currently blinded Israel will see Him and believe and be saved.

Can you show your claim above from the text of Romans 11?


Are all of the Israelites partially blinded, or are part of the Israelites blinded, and part of the Israelites are not blinded? The answer is found in the "remnant" of Romans 11:5.


Are you attempting to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.
It is a common corruption of the text by Dispensationalists.
I have heard both John MacArthur, and John Hagee, make this change during a sermon.

Both of them said... "And then all of Israel will be saved."

.

 

[chad kincham]

Can you show your claim above from the text of Romans 11?


Are all of the Israelites partially blinded, or are part of the Israelites blinded, and part of the Israelites are not blinded? The answer is found in the "remnant" of Romans 11:5.


Are you attempting to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.
It is a common corruption of the text by Dispensationalists.
I have heard both John MacArthur, and John Hagee, make this change during a sermon.

Both of them said... "And then all of Israel will be saved."

.

C. God’s plan for Israel includes their eventual restoration.

1. (Rom 11:25-27) The promise that all Israel will be saved.

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”

a. Paul’s warning to us that we should not be wise in your own opinion should remind us to take what he says here soberly. Christians must not be ignorant of this mystery.

b. Blindness in part has happened to Israel: Paul summarizes his point from Rom 11:11-24 is summarized. God’s purpose in allowing hardening in part to come upon Israel is so that the fullness of the Gentiles can come in.

i. In part has the idea of “temporary”; Israel’s hardness is temporary. “One day the Jews will realize their blindness and folly. They’ll accept Jesus Christ, and the glorious national restoration of these people will bring in the Kingdom Age.” (Smith)

c. However, when that fullness of the Gentiles has come in, God will once again turn the attention of His plan of the ages specifically on Israel again, so that all Israel will be saved. God’s plan of the ages does not set its attention on everyone equally through all ages.

d. All Israel will be saved: This all Israel is not spiritual Israel. It isn’t “spiritual Israel” in Rom 11:25, because that Israel is spiritually blind. Therefore, we shouldn’t regard it as spiritual Israel in Rom 11:26.

i. There is a distinction between national or ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel. Paul makes this clear in Gal 3:7 and other passages. Nevertheless, God still has a purpose and a plan for ethnic Israel, and will bring salvation to them.

ii. Another proof that this is not spiritual Israel is because Paul says this is a mystery - and it is no mystery that spiritual Israel will be saved.

iii. Harrison on all Israel: “It was the view of Calvin, for example, that the entire company of the redeemed, both Jew and Gentile, is intended. But Israel has not been used of Gentiles in these chapters, and it is doubtful that such is the case in any of Paul’s writings.”

iv. “It is impossible to entertain an exegesis which understands Israel here in a different sense from Israel in verse 25.” (Bruce)

e. Will be saved: This states clearly for us that God is not finished with Israel as a nation or a distinct ethnic group. Though God has turned the focus of His saving mercies away from Israel on to the Gentiles, He will turn it back again.

i. This simple passage refutes those who insist that God is forever done with Israel as Israel, and that the Church is the New Israel and inherits every promise ever made to national and ethnic Israel of the Old Testament.

ii. We are reminded of the enduring character of the promises made to national and ethnic Israel (Gen 13:15 and Gen 17:7-8). God is not “finished” with Israel, and Israel is not “spiritualized” as the church.

iii. While we do see and rejoice in a continuity of God’s work throughout all His people through all generations, we still see a distinction between Israel and the Church - a distinction that Paul is sensitive to here.

f. All Israel will be saved: This does not mean there will be a time when every last person of Jewish descent will be saved. Instead, this is a time when Israel as a whole will be a saved people, and when the nation as a whole (especially its leadership) embraces Jesus Christ as Messiah.

i. Even as the apostasy of Israel did not extend to every last Jew, so the salvation of Israel will not extend to every last Jew; Paul is speak of the “mass” of Jews when he says all Israel. “All Israel is a recurring expression in Jewish literature, where it need not mean ‘every Jew without a single exception’, but ‘Israel as a whole.’” (Bruce)

ii. And, when all Israel will be saved, they will be saved through embracing Jesus Christ as Messiah - as unlikely as this seems. They are not saved with some peculiar “Jewish” salvation.

iii. The Bible indicates this is a necessary condition for the return of Jesus Christ (Mat 23:39, Zec 12:10-11). Jesus will not return again until God turns the focus of His saving mercies on Israel again, and Israel responds to God through Jesus Christ.

g. The Deliverer will come out of Zion: The quotations from Isaiah show that God still has a redeeming work to accomplish with Israel, and that it will not be left undone.

2. (Rom 11:28-29) God’s love and calling for Israel still endures.

 

[Timtofly]

I am saying the prophecy of the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus was prophesying future of himself in Matthew 24:15 is in Daniel 12, which in the context of Daniel 12 is time of the end in the text.

You are entering the uncharted territory of time travel. What Antiochus Epiphanies did was future to Daniel was past for Christ, but pointed to a future event. That is why the first beast out of the sea hearkens back to both Daniel and Christ. John is not saying it is that person, but the formation now in the 2020's is the end of Daniel's beast. The way it will be revealed will be the presenting of a FP, not the non-existent AC.

The issue is trying to force anything into a temple period. Daniel's abomination was fulfilled and was not told it would ever happen again by Daniel. That it was the same temple destroyed in 70AD is a mute point. It would not have fulfilled the event twice, even if Titus had done the exact same thing as Antiochus Epiphanies. The only reason Christ was making that reference which all would know in that day, was to point out, AD70, would not fulfill Daniel's prophecy. Only Satan can be involved in the event, based on John's rendition in Revelation 13. The Adversary does indeed give power to this FP. "They worshipped the dragon, because he had given his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast" The same thing happened with Satan and Antiochus Epiphanies.

Only Satan can prove for preterist if 70AD, had his presence written all over it. Because only he would cover that point up and prevent all from knowing the truth today. Otherwise 70AD is not the event Christ was talking about. Because that is the only clear marker of the timing. Since it did not happen in 70AD, (no one saw that part), it is still future. Satan will be exposed and set up the FP, as Daniel and Christ prophesied and my huntch says it will be similar to the 167BC event. Because both Christ and John draws on the prophecy of Daniel as if history repeats itself. Why is it a FP and not an AC? The prophet always comes first. John the Baptist came first and then Christ. In this case Satan is also on the scene, but no one knows it is Satan or does not care.

 

[BABerean2]

C. God’s plan for Israel includes their eventual restoration.

1. (Rom 11:25-27) The promise that all Israel will be saved.

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”

a. Paul’s warning to us that we should not be wise in your own opinion should remind us to take what he says here soberly. Christians must not be ignorant of this mystery.

b. Blindness in part has happened to Israel: Paul summarizes his point from Rom 11:11-24 is summarized. God’s purpose in allowing hardening in part to come upon Israel is so that the fullness of the Gentiles can come in.

i. In part has the idea of “temporary”; Israel’s hardness is temporary. “One day the Jews will realize their blindness and folly. They’ll accept Jesus Christ, and the glorious national restoration of these people will bring in the Kingdom Age.” (Smith)

c. However, when that fullness of the Gentiles has come in, God will once again turn the attention of His plan of the ages specifically on Israel again, so that all Israel will be saved. God’s plan of the ages does not set its attention on everyone equally through all ages.

d. All Israel will be saved: This all Israel is not spiritual Israel. It isn’t “spiritual Israel” in Rom 11:25, because that Israel is spiritually blind. Therefore, we shouldn’t regard it as spiritual Israel in Rom 11:26.

i. There is a distinction between national or ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel. Paul makes this clear in Gal 3:7 and other passages. Nevertheless, God still has a purpose and a plan for ethnic Israel, and will bring salvation to them.

ii. Another proof that this is not spiritual Israel is because Paul says this is a mystery - and it is no mystery that spiritual Israel will be saved.

iii. Harrison on all Israel: “It was the view of Calvin, for example, that the entire company of the redeemed, both Jew and Gentile, is intended. But Israel has not been used of Gentiles in these chapters, and it is doubtful that such is the case in any of Paul’s writings.”

iv. “It is impossible to entertain an exegesis which understands Israel here in a different sense from Israel in verse 25.” (Bruce)

e. Will be saved: This states clearly for us that God is not finished with Israel as a nation or a distinct ethnic group. Though God has turned the focus of His saving mercies away from Israel on to the Gentiles, He will turn it back again.

i. This simple passage refutes those who insist that God is forever done with Israel as Israel, and that the Church is the New Israel and inherits every promise ever made to national and ethnic Israel of the Old Testament.

ii. We are reminded of the enduring character of the promises made to national and ethnic Israel (Gen 13:15 and Gen 17:7-8). God is not “finished” with Israel, and Israel is not “spiritualized” as the church.

iii. While we do see and rejoice in a continuity of God’s work throughout all His people through all generations, we still see a distinction between Israel and the Church - a distinction that Paul is sensitive to here.

f. All Israel will be saved: This does not mean there will be a time when every last person of Jewish descent will be saved. Instead, this is a time when Israel as a whole will be a saved people, and when the nation as a whole (especially its leadership) embraces Jesus Christ as Messiah.

i. Even as the apostasy of Israel did not extend to every last Jew, so the salvation of Israel will not extend to every last Jew; Paul is speak of the “mass” of Jews when he says all Israel. “All Israel is a recurring expression in Jewish literature, where it need not mean ‘every Jew without a single exception’, but ‘Israel as a whole.’” (Bruce)

ii. And, when all Israel will be saved, they will be saved through embracing Jesus Christ as Messiah - as unlikely as this seems. They are not saved with some peculiar “Jewish” salvation.

iii. The Bible indicates this is a necessary condition for the return of Jesus Christ (Mat 23:39, Zec 12:10-11). Jesus will not return again until God turns the focus of His saving mercies on Israel again, and Israel responds to God through Jesus Christ.

g. The Deliverer will come out of Zion: The quotations from Isaiah show that God still has a redeeming work to accomplish with Israel, and that it will not be left undone.

2. (Rom 11:28-29) God’s love and calling for Israel still endures.

The post above is filled with Dispensational double-talk.
In one place it says all of Israel will be saved, and in another place it says all of the Israelites will not be saved.

It ignores Roman 9:6-8, which reveals the difference between Israel of the flesh, and Israel of the promise.

It ignores Romans 9:27, which reveals only a "remnant" of Israel will be saved.

It ignores Luke 21:24-28, which reveals that the times of the Gentiles comes to fulness at the Second Coming of Christ.

It ignores the fact that some of the Israelites were blinded, and some of the Israelites were not blinded.

It replaces the covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary in Romans 11, with a future covenant made with the modern State of Israel. Hebrews 9:15 reveals the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary.

It ignores the fact that Romans 11 is about the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelites, and believing Gentiles grafted together into the same Olive Tree.
Paul provides no path of salvation outside of the Church in the passage.
The only path to salvation for those broken off of the tree is by being grafted back into the Olive Tree Church, through faith in Christ in the text below.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


There is no Plan B of salvation based on race, found in the Bible.
In Titus 3:9 Paul tells us to ignore "genealogies", but your doctrine cannot survive without it.


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[Timtofly]

The only path to salvation for those broken off of the tree is by being grafted back into the Olive Tree Church, through faith in Christ in the text below.

Yet you seem to deny God's ability to graft them in by His choice. You base it on their choice. That is error. God clearly states it would be His choice. It was God's choice at the Cross through the Atonement that all of Adam's descendants could be grafted in. Israel has no choice, save for the fact they failed to keep a covenant. One that with a sin nature, surrounded by sin nature Gentiles, is impossible to keep. We do not choose God by doing. The old covenant was based on doing. The new one removed "doing" and placed it on the choice of "trust". It is also an open covenant not a binding covenant. The only binding part Holds God to His word, He has to ransom us. We do not have to be ransomed on our end of the covenant. That is because in sin, God has the right not to. That is the point Calvinist stress, but really does not exist. God says sin does not matter, because the Atonement on the Cross removes sin from the covenant 100%. The covenant does not remove sin from our sin filled fleshly bodies. The Law did not remove sin either. It just addressed sin in a different manner. One that pointed to a future Cross. Rejecting God is a conscious choice. One cannot unconsciously reject salvation.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no Plan B of salvation based on race, found in the Bible.
In Titus 3:9 Paul tells us to ignore "genealogies", but your doctrine cannot survive without it.

That is exactly why the Second Coming is not at Armageddon. That theory is plan B.