LDS The Infallibility of the Prophets

[He is the way]

This did not answer or even address my question, which followed from your answer to BigDaddy4 that you were talking about Protestants in particular.

I assume that the entire point of bringing up that there's more to Christianity than just Protestants or just the Reformation is to attempt to get you to address all the ways your argument does not fit with the full scope of Christian history (the implication being that the LDS/Mormonism needs to greatly scale back its claims about total, worldwide apostasy if you mean to only address Protestants, since Protestants and Protestantism are in no way the worldwide total of Christianity, so anything that only addresses them or the Protestant Reformation and Catholicism is going to fall short about 282 million people -- roughly 62 million Oriental Orthodox and 220 million Eastern Orthodox, plus maybe half a million Nestorians/Church of the East people (including their offshoot, the Ancient Church of the East). Also in some sense at least a few of the Eastern Catholic Churches -- namely the Maronites and possibly the Italo-Albanians -- could be described as their own thing, in the sense that these are the two churches in communion with Rome that pretty indisputably united with Rome before the Reformation even happened (the Maronites of Syria and Lebanon in large part during the Crusades of the 12th century, and the Albanians having come to Italy as a result of Muslim persecutions in the 15th century, and uniting with Rome at the Council of Florence in 1431-1449; keep in mind that the Protestant Reformation began only in 1517; the other Eastern Catholic churches are newer/after 1517). This would add another approximately 3.5 million (Maronites) and 160,000 (Italo-Albanian Catholics).

This is the problem with Mormons' aversion to learning the history of Christianity (to say nothing of whether or not you agree with the way it worked out, which is irrelevant): since Mormonism was born entirely within an American 19th century Protestant context, and refuses to learn f anything else for its own sake, it can't really realistically claim to address anything other or more than that, yet at the same time it makes these grandiose claims about the entire world being in apostasy and the Church being taken from the earth to be restored later via JS and all this stuff, and absolutely none of it is based in reality. It is essentially JS' reaction to his surroundings and the confusion that he personally felt (you know the story, where he goes out into the grove to pray about which church he should join), but projected onto the entire world, as though the average believer in Armenia, Ethiopia, Greece, Rome, Germany, etc. -- all of whom are just following their respective churches as they have for centuries both before and after JS (as he is in no way a figure of importance in any Christian tradition) -- thereby shares in JS' confusion and vision of 'restoration'. That doesn't make for a convincing story. "Joseph Smith doesn't know what's going on outside of his home region" is not a convincing basis for some modern-day prophesying, let alone passing judgment on literally every Christian church on the planet.

When or if Mormons ever start opening up history books not printed by BYU or some other propaganda arm of the Mormon religion, I guarantee you interesting things will start happening. Worthwhile things...long overdue things. May God grant you the intellectual fortitude to learn and reason for yourself, not for the sake of your religion and its leaders.

You asked this question: "So then the "apostasy" that Mormonism is built upon is the Protestant Reformation, and hence does not predate the early 16th century?:

The scripture I posted does indeed predate the early 16th century. The scripture also proves that there would be an apostasy not long after Paul's death. There were multiple problems with Christ's church after Paul's death.

"The Inquisition has its origins in the early organized persecution of non-Catholic Christian religions in Europe. In 1184 Pope Lucius III sent bishops to southern France to track down heretics called Catharists. These efforts continued into the 14th Century.

During the same period, the church also pursued the Waldensians in Germany and Northern Italy. In 1231, Pope Gregory charged the Dominican and Franciscan Orders to take over the job of tracking down heretics."

From: Inquisition

During this time the Catholic church tortured and killed many people. This was opposite of Christ's teachings of LOVE. Jesus Christ gave us the higher law and we need to live it.

 

[He is the way]

Interesting re-write of JS history. He didn't know who was right or wrong, he "must either remain in darkness and confusion", etc. See his history verses 8-13 where his expresses "uncertainty", "indecision", "unsureness", etc. (your definition).

Although Joseph Smith did not have the answers he did not doubt God or that He could give him the answers. I don't have all of the answers either but I do NOT doubt God. I know He has ALL of the answers.

Only to those who do not understand Scripture - i.e., the LDS church and its [false] prophets.

God does NOT repent, but man has seen God face to face.

Your baseless statement is not proof. I already pointed out why. Please re-read my comment that you responded to and provide an actual response and not your testimony, if possible,

You don't see it as proof, but it is. The Book of Mormon is from God and many have recognized that fact.

All your scripture posting shows is that you do not understand scripture in context and you are willing to continue misuse it to justify your misguided religion. It does NOT show or support any "great apostasy" as your church teaches. So attempting to show a partial apostasy is just wasted effort. Posts 211 and 219 by dzheremi points that out.

Here are some more scriptures concerning the apostasy:

(Guide to the Scriptures | A Apostasy.:Apostasy of the early Christian church)

Apostasy of the early Christian church: This people draw near me with their mouth, Isa. 29:10, 13. Darkness shall cover the earth, Isa. 60:2. The Lord will send a famine of hearing the words of the Lord, Amos 8:11. There shall arise false Christs and false prophets, Matt. 24:24. Grievous wolves shall enter in among you, Acts 20:29. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him, Gal. 1:6. There will be a falling away before the Second Coming, 2 Thes. 2:3. Some people err concerning the truth, 2 Tim. 2:18. Some people have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, 2 Tim. 3:5. The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, 2 Tim. 4:3–4. There will be false prophets and false teachers among the people, 2 Pet. 2:1. Certain men crept in denying the only Lord God, Jude 1:4. Some men said they were Apostles and were not, Rev. 2:2

 

[Leaf473]

It is the same historic amount:
(Old Testament | Genesis 14:20)

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

(Old Testament | Genesis 28:22)

22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 13:15)

15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one–tenth part of all he possessed.

It goes into the church's financial account.

I understand that in Old testament times, people gave 10% in certain situations. If I remember the law of Moses correctly, for Farmers it was 33 1/3 %.

I think this is the New testament way
2 Corinthians 9:6 Remember this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly. He who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Each person gives as the person decides. If it is a commandment, then it is under compulsion.

 

[Leaf473]

Okay so Peter wasn't perfect.

Right! And what do we do today when a church leader
is not walking according to the truth of the gospel,
is leading others into hypocrisy,
or is compelling Gentiles to live as Jews?

 

[Leaf473]

This did not answer or even address my question, which followed from your answer to BigDaddy4 that you were talking about Protestants in particular.

I assume that the entire point of bringing up that there's more to Christianity than just Protestants or just the Reformation is to attempt to get you to address all the ways your argument does not fit with the full scope of Christian history (the implication being that the LDS/Mormonism needs to greatly scale back its claims about total, worldwide apostasy if you mean to only address Protestants, since Protestants and Protestantism are in no way the worldwide total of Christianity, so anything that only addresses them or the Protestant Reformation and Catholicism is going to fall short about 282 million people -- roughly 62 million Oriental Orthodox and 220 million Eastern Orthodox, plus maybe half a million Nestorians/Church of the East people (including their offshoot, the Ancient Church of the East). Also in some sense at least a few of the Eastern Catholic Churches -- namely the Maronites and possibly the Italo-Albanians -- could be described as their own thing, in the sense that these are the two churches in communion with Rome that pretty indisputably united with Rome before the Reformation even happened (the Maronites of Syria and Lebanon in large part during the Crusades of the 12th century, and the Albanians having come to Italy as a result of Muslim persecutions in the 15th century, and uniting with Rome at the Council of Florence in 1431-1449; keep in mind that the Protestant Reformation began only in 1517; the other Eastern Catholic churches are newer/after 1517). This would add another approximately 3.5 million (Maronites) and 160,000 (Italo-Albanian Catholics).

This is the problem with Mormons' aversion to learning the history of Christianity (to say nothing of whether or not you agree with the way it worked out, which is irrelevant): since Mormonism was born entirely within an American 19th century Protestant context, and refuses to learn f anything else for its own sake, it can't really realistically claim to address anything other or more than that, yet at the same time it makes these grandiose claims about the entire world being in apostasy and the Church being taken from the earth to be restored later via JS and all this stuff, and absolutely none of it is based in reality. It is essentially JS' reaction to his surroundings and the confusion that he personally felt (you know the story, where he goes out into the grove to pray about which church he should join), but projected onto the entire world, as though the average believer in Armenia, Ethiopia, Greece, Rome, Germany, etc. -- all of whom are just following their respective churches as they have for centuries both before and after JS (as he is in no way a figure of importance in any Christian tradition) -- thereby shares in JS' confusion and vision of 'restoration'. That doesn't make for a convincing story. "Joseph Smith doesn't know what's going on outside of his home region" is not a convincing basis for some modern-day prophesying, let alone passing judgment on literally every Christian church on the planet.

When or if Mormons ever start opening up history books not printed by BYU or some other propaganda arm of the Mormon religion, I guarantee you interesting things will start happening. Worthwhile things...long overdue things. May God grant you the intellectual fortitude to learn and reason for yourself, not for the sake of your religion and its leaders.

(if I may comment on your post in a way that is somewhat off topic but still kind of relates)

It's true that the Catholic church is the largest single organization in the Christian world. That can be seen, though, as a kind of accident of history and geography.

Three major colonial powers in the past, Portugal, Spain, and France, all spread Catholicism to their colonies.

Had Greece or Egypt been better situated for colonialism and exploration,the Christian "map" might look very different!

 

[dzheremi]

The scripture I posted does indeed predate the early 16th century. The scripture also proves that there would be an apostasy not long after Paul's death. There were multiple problems with Christ's church after Paul's death.

"The Inquisition has its origins in the early organized persecution of non-Catholic Christian religions in Europe. In 1184 Pope Lucius III sent bishops to southern France to track down heretics called Catharists. These efforts continued into the 14th Century.

During the same period, the church also pursued the Waldensians in Germany and Northern Italy. In 1231, Pope Gregory charged the Dominican and Franciscan Orders to take over the job of tracking down heretics."

From: Inquisition

So let me get this straight: your contention, as a Mormon, is that Christ's Church is the Roman Catholic Church? Your example of what you call "problems with Christ's church" is something that the Roman Catholic Church alone did. No other specific church is responsible for the Inquisition. It didn't include Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Nestorians. It only included Protestants as victims.

That's weird.

And then there's your statement that "The scripture also proves that there would be an apostasy not long after Paul's death", and your example of that in action is something that your source states began in the late 12th century.

I don't know what your definition of "not long" is, but most people wouldn't consider something that happened over a millennium later to be "not long after Paul's death".

During this time the Catholic church tortured and killed many people. This was opposite of Christ's teachings of LOVE. Jesus Christ gave us the higher law and we need to live it.

Okay. Sure. But it's pretty easy to not participate in the Inquisition by (1) not being Roman Catholic, and (2) living after 1834, so the idea that this is supposed to be an example of the ancient and worldwide nature of the 'great apostasy' is really odd.

 

[He is the way]

I understand that in Old testament times, people gave 10% in certain situations. If I remember the law of Moses correctly, for Farmers it was 33 1/3 %.

I think this is the New testament way
2 Corinthians 9:6 Remember this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly. He who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Each person gives as the person decides. If it is a commandment, then it is under compulsion.

Everything we have was given to us by God. We are only caretakers of His vineyard. Zacchaeus gave half of of his goods to the poor and was saved:

(New Testament | Luke 19:8 - 9)

8 And Zacchæus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

That being said, I am in agreement with 2 Corinthians 9:6. It is recommended that we give at least 10% in tithing to help build up God's church, some give more and some give less.

 

[He is the way]

Right! And what do we do today when a church leader
is not walking according to the truth of the gospel,
is leading others into hypocrisy,
or is compelling Gentiles to live as Jews?

Are you saying that first and second Peter are false? What do you mean by "compelling Gentiles to live as Jews?"

 

[Leaf473]

Your example of what you call "problems with Christ's church" is something that the Roman Catholic Church alone did.

That is an interesting situation. If a person uses the inquisition as an example of apostasy in Christ's church, they are then acknowledging that the Catholic church is the Church of Jesus Christ.

My impression is that LDS Teach that Christ's church disappeared from the earth. That would be a logical difficulty, imo.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Although Joseph Smith did not have the answers he did not doubt God or that He could give him the answers. I don't have all of the answers either but I do NOT doubt God. I know He has ALL of the answers.

God did give JS His answer, though not through the means that he accepted. He should have listened to the minister. The "first vision" was not of God.

God does NOT repent, but man has seen God face to face.

And the misunderstanding continues...

You don't see it as proof, but it is. The Book of Mormon is from God and many have recognized that fact.

Your "many" are only LDS faithful. Many more others have rejected it as nothing more than a fairy tale. Facts are not on your side in support of the BOM.

Here are some more scriptures concerning the apostasy:

(Guide to the Scriptures | A Apostasy.:Apostasy of the early Christian church)

You keep trying but you also keep failing to show any "great apostacy" for the entirety of Christianity. Again, facts are not on your side for this claim. Much as you try to show a few historical events and quote certain Scriptures, you also conveniently forget about Jesus' promise to build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. For your claims to be true, Jesus must be a liar. Not a good path to be on, IMO.

 

[He is the way]

So let me get this straight: your contention, as a Mormon, is that Christ's Church is the Roman Catholic Church? Your example of what you call "problems with Christ's church" is something that the Roman Catholic Church alone did. No other specific church is responsible for the Inquisition. It didn't include Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Nestorians. It only included Protestants as victims.

That's weird.

And then there's your statement that "The scripture also proves that there would be an apostasy not long after Paul's death", and your example of that in action is something that your source states began in the late 12th century.

I don't know what your definition of "not long" is, is most people wouldn't consider something that happened over a millennium later to be "not long after Paul's death".



Okay. Sure. But it's pretty easy to not participate in the Inquisition by (1) not being Roman Catholic, and (2) living after 1834, so the idea that this is supposed to be an example of the ancient and worldwide nature of the 'great apostasy' is really odd.

You said: "So let me get this straight: your contention, as a Mormon, is that Christ's Church is the Roman Catholic Church?"

No. That being said your church was a part of the Catholic church until the break up in AD 451:

"Oriental Orthodox Churches shared communion with the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church in the Imperial Roman Church before the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, as well as with the Church of the East until the Council of Ephesus in AD 431, all separating primarily over differences in Christology."

From: Oriental Orthodox Churches - Wikipedia

However, Paul warned what would happen in the space of three years:

(New Testament | Acts 20:27 - 31)

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

 

[Leaf473]

Everything we have was given to us by God. We are only caretakers of His vineyard. Zacchaeus gave half of of his goods to the poor and was saved:

(New Testament | Luke 19:8 - 9)

8 And Zacchæus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Great story about zacchaeus!

That being said, I am in agreement with 2 Corinthians 9:6. It is recommended that we give at least 10% in tithing to help build up God's church, some give more and some give less.

I'm glad you are in agreement with 1 Corinthians 9:6.

In the next verse, we learn not to give under compulsion.
2 Corinthians 9:7 Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

If a person believes they must give at least 10% or something bad will happen to them either in this life or the life to come, that person will be giving under compulsion, even if at times their desire is to give much more.

Also, if people are cheerful givers, there is no need for someone else to keep a careful record of their giving, imo.

 

[Leaf473]

Are you saying that first and second Peter are false? What do you mean by "compelling Gentiles to live as Jews?"

No, I'm saying that Peter was:
not walking according to the truth of the gospel,
leading others into hypocrisy,
and compelling Gentiles to live as Jews.

Each one of those is here in the story. The part about compelling Gentiles to live like Jews is in the very last line.
Galatians 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?

 

[He is the way]

God did give JS His answer, though not through the means that he accepted. He should have listened to the minister. The "first vision" was not of God.

Joseph Smith knew what he saw and would NOT deny it:

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:21 - 25)

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
22 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me.
23 It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.
24 However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.
25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

And the misunderstanding continues...

That is your misunderstanding, not mine. Not everyone who sees God will perish:

(Old Testament | Exodus 19:21)

21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.

Your "many" are only LDS faithful. Many more others have rejected it as nothing more than a fairy tale. Facts are not on your side in support of the BOM.

A lot of people reject the Bible as a fairy tale. Does that make them right?

You keep trying but you also keep failing to show any "great apostacy" for the entirety of Christianity. Again, facts are not on your side for this claim. Much as you try to show a few historical events and quote certain Scriptures, you also conveniently forget about Jesus' promise to build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. For your claims to be true, Jesus must be a liar. Not a good path to be on, IMO.

It is impossible to prove anything to someone who will not believe. The gates of Hell have not prevailed against God's church.

 

[dzheremi]

You said: "So let me get this straight: your contention, as a Mormon, is that Christ's Church is the Roman Catholic Church?"

No. That being said your church was a part of the Catholic church until the break up in AD 451

Chalcedon has nothing to do with what we're talking about. This is a red herring.

However, Paul warned what would happen in the space of three years:

(New Testament | Acts 20:27 - 31)

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

"By the space of three years" does not mean that he warned that it would happen within three years of his departing. It means that he spent three years warning them that this would happen. The original Greek is here, and many English translations reflect that understanding of it.

 

[He is the way]

Great story about zacchaeus!

I'm glad you are in agreement with 1 Corinthians 9:6.

In the next verse, we learn not to give under compulsion.
2 Corinthians 9:7 Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

If a person believes they must give at least 10% or something bad will happen to them either in this life or the life to come, that person will be giving under compulsion, even if at times their desire is to give much more.

Also, if people are cheerful givers, there is no need for someone else to keep a careful record of their giving, imo.

No one is forced to give, no one is forced to LOVE others, no one is forced to keep the commandments. God wants us to do these things, but no one is forced to do them. The church keeps records so we can find out where our donations are being used.

 

[He is the way]

No, I'm saying that Peter was:
not walking according to the truth of the gospel,
leading others into hypocrisy,
and compelling Gentiles to live as Jews.

Each one of those is here in the story. The part about compelling Gentiles to live like Jews is in the very last line.
Galatians 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?

I think we see a different meaning to this scripture. It seems to me Paul is chastising Peter and Barnabas for living with the Gentiles and not doing as the Jews do. Then he is asking Peter why he is asking the Gentiles to live under God's covenants. It is my belief that Paul is the one out of line and not Peter. Perhaps Paul did not understand that Peter and Barnabas were doing what the Lord wanted him to do. Paul is not perfect either.

 

[He is the way]

Chalcedon has nothing to do with what we're talking about. This is a red herring.



"By the space of three years" does not mean that he warned that it would happen within three years of his departing. It means that he spent three years warning them that this would happen. The original Greek is here, and many English translations reflect that understanding of it.

I believe you are correct, he did warn them for three years. But it was not long after his departing that grievous wolves entered the flock and also people in the flock arose and said contrary things to draw Christ's followers away from Him. It made Paul very sad to know that this was going to happen.

(New Testament | Acts 20:27 - 31)

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

 

[dzheremi]

I believe you are correct, he did warn them for three years. But it was not long after his departing that grievous wolves entered the flock and also people in the flock arose and said contrary things to draw Christ's followers away from Him. It made Paul very sad to know that this was going to happen.

Sure. I don't think anyone denies that this is spoken of, and was even going on at the time. Some form of adoptionism was present in the first century, for instance.

This does not in any way mean that there was or would be some kind of all-encompassing, worldwide apostasy, as there was and is always an answer to the deviations that arise, and always those who remain faithful, even as not all do. From the Revelation to St. John, chapter 2, as the Spirit speaks to the seven churches (emphasis added):

12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, 'These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it."

+++

As those who have ears to hear can hear it, there are some who endure and some who do not. There is most definitely not a worldwide, complete apostasy. This contradicts the faith taught by the same Spirit which sends those words to the churches, and what is written by Him through the hand of our father and master the holy apostle of Jesus Christ our God, St. John. It is a call and a warning to stand against the heresies present in the Church, not an admission of defeat by them. God forbids it. Or at least the Christian God forbids it. If Mormonism teaches otherwise, that's Mormonism's problem as a result of its own (non-Christian) theology, which is rejected as coming from outside of the faith.

 

[He is the way]

Sure. I don't think anyone denies that this is spoken of, and was even going on at the time. Some form of adoptionism was present in the first century, for instance.

This does not in any way mean that there was or would be some kind of all-encompassing, worldwide apostasy, as there was and is always an answer to the deviations that arise, and always those who remain faithful, even as not all do. From the Revelation to St. John, chapter 2, as the Spirit speaks to the seven churches (emphasis added):

12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, 'These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it."

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As those who have ears to hear can hear it, there are some who endure and some who do not. There is most definitely not a worldwide, complete apostasy. This contradicts the faith taught by the same Spirit which sends those words to the churches, and what is written by Him through the hand of our father and master the holy apostle of Jesus Christ our God, St. John. It is a call and a warning to stand against the heresies present in the Church, not an admission of defeat by them. God forbids it. Or at least the Christian God forbids it. If Mormonism teaches otherwise, that's Mormonism's problem as a result of its own (non-Christian) theology, which is rejected as coming from outside of the faith.

I believe that there are those who continued to LOVE God enough to keep His commandments of LOVE and those who didn't (apostates). It is the same now, those who follow Christ's teachings, and those who don't (apostates).
(New Testament | Galatians 5:22 - 25)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

True Christians live by the spirit.

Then there are the unloving:

(New Testament | Matthew 15:8 - 9)

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.