Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[muichimotsu]

White’s aren’t the only ones with privileged status. An argument can be made that all color is irrelevant. But that doesn’t stop people from using the term.

Color being irrelevant can be argued to just ignore the real problems that exist in society based on unequal and inequitable treatment of people based on their skin color. Color blindness in terms of racial issues does the opposite of what it proposes to do by acting like there isn't a problem because they don't see it from a superficial look at society

Are you claiming most white people think this way? Do you make that assumption because you're white and you think this way?

I'm saying I see it more often than I'd like to and part of that idea is societal biases that make white people feel like they are more important in some sense, even if they also voice the idea that they want people of color to be given fair access as well.

Where did you get the impression that we as Americans are supposed to aspire to be professional athletes, Politicians and movie stars? And let’s face it; though not the majority, black people are not under represented in those areas in proportion to our population.

People aspire to be recognized by others, some would want to be celebrities and such, you're being naive to suggest that isn't at least something of an aspiration of people, even if it isn't necessarily as high a priority

If all you do is skew the numbers based on population, then of course you can point out some inconsistency, but I'm pretty sure that's unsound methodology in statistics, though I can't be absolutely certain on that

My point is, anybody who lives in a high crime neighborhood gets bad treatment from the police, anybody who lives in a low crime neighborhood gets better treatment by the police regardless of skin color.

You'd have to demonstrate that in evidence and not merely a generalization that is arguably anecdotal in nature. The police wouldn't bother with low crime neighborhoods in the first place versus a high crime neighborhood: to say there are no biases is hopelessly ignorant without showing that there is genuine equitable treatment

Yes it does! Society no more treats me as an afterthought than they treat you as one.

Your feeling as such doesn't make it so and being recognized in some sense purely because of your blackness is the opposite of being treated fairly, where your skin color is a mere observation and not coloring stereotypes or biased attitudes about you based on your skin color

A black person with a house worth $200K will sell it during gentrification for $300K will move to better neighborhood with his $300K because his previous house will be torn down and replaced with one for $700K which is outside of his price range. But still; the black person is much better off due to gentrification than he would have been without it.

That's assuming they will capitalize on that in the first place, not everyone is that opportunistic and conniving to basically move around as they please when the winds of opportunity will benefit them. And not everyone is going to have a house that appreciates to anything close to that value in the first place

Can you give an example of this actually happening?

Pretty sure I retracted this in another post, I misspoke in the idea that black people somehow had a different reaction that could be correlated directly to them being black rather than this novel strain affecting people in general differently to begin with. But the evidence seems to lean to black people being disproportionately affected regardless of if they live or die from the virus because of systemic imbalances that make them suffer from a broken healthcare system, to say nothing of a society that doesn't think their suffering matters as much because they're on the periphery of society

Are you under the impression that American society places you as a white man is above me simply because I am black? Because I am a part of American society, and I don’t think this way. So my question is, who are these people you are talking about?

The people that regard you differently because of your skin color, even if, as I pointed out, this isn't based in malice, but ignorance, spread through misinformation that generalizes black people based on the bad behavior of some or tries to make it out like black culture is the problem when some of it can be placed squarely on white people incentivizing situations that will keep black people in a bad way, like particular aspects of social welfare that came up in, I want to say, the 60s.

The fact that we can point to policy changes by white people in power as partly responsible for black people being in a less than ideal situation, not only for financial mobility, but also education opportunities, etc, seems to lend far more credence to the problem not being color-blind, but rooted in white people having a cultural hegemony that persists to this day even if, on the surface, things appear to be getting better in some superficial manner.

Care to give an example of this?

3 sources, is that sufficient?

US blacks 3 times more likely than whites to get COVID-19

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/too-many-black-americans-are-dying-from-covid-19/

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

 

[Strathos]

In the early days of the pandemic, there was a rumor going around that black people couldn't catch it. Obviously that's not true, but it shows how false information can spread.

 

[muichimotsu]

In the early days of the pandemic, there was a rumor going around that black people couldn't catch it. Obviously that's not true, but it shows how false information can spread.

Admitting mistakes is an indication of actual critical thought rather than mere confirmation bias masquerading as "research".

I'll admit I misheard something regarding different symptoms (which vary even among white people from the evidence, so it's only wrong in that it's race specific from the investigations by experts) and yet that doesn't discredit the claims in regards to black people suffering more under this pandemic than white people even though they're a smaller portion of the population, not unlike the police brutality issue

 

[Ken-1122]

you're trying to overcompensate with this idea that somehow you don't need anyone's help and then paint white people as if we're being malicious instead of ignorant

No. First of all, it’s not white people who are trying to help black people but end up making things worse, it’s the Government. The Government is made up of all races. We don’t need help, just get out of the way and allow us to succeed like you do everybody else.

The structures are something that were given as a concession, arguably, white people not wanting to seem too racist, but also able to "keep black people under control" effectively, because they only have those groups that really can help them, while the other groups don't care.

Again; these concessions are not given by white people, and who are these groups you claim want to keep black people under control? You talking about the Democratic party?

White pride is explicitly a dog whistle because white pride is not a thing in the sense of pride as it applies to minorities, we never struggled in that way, we were given the benefit of the doubt as white people.

As the majority culture, white pride in some white culture is nonexistent; there are ethnicities that have cultural identities, but the whiteness is distinct because as a racial group, we rarely had the struggles blacks have had under white colonial influences (to say nothing of Hispanics, Native people, etc)

I remember presenting a scenario a couple years ago to several dozen people of all races and genders if they could be born again and choose their race and gender, which would they choose and why.

100% of the men said they would be born male, the vast majority of women said they would be born female but a few said born male, 100% of the black people said they would be born black, the vast majority of white people said they would be born mixed race; white and something else (mostly black or asian) but a few said they would want to be born white. Brown people and asians were kinda all over the place; some wanted to remain the same, others said mixed race.

If being white is as awesome as you say it is, why is it nobody seems to want to be 100% white? Why is it whenever I see a person half black half white, they almost always claim to be black, even though technically speaking they are almost always majority white? If being black is as bad as you say it is, why does it seem everybody who seems to have the smallest amount of black in them wants to claim to be black?

 

[Ken-1122]

Color being irrelevant can be argued to just ignore the real problems that exist in society based on unequal and inequitable treatment of people based on their skin color. Color blindness in terms of racial issues does the opposite of what it proposes to do by acting like there isn't a problem because they don't see it from a superficial look at society

No; color blindness is the solution! When someone says they are color blind, or that they don’t see color, they are not saying they can’t tell the difference between a black man or a white man, they are saying they treat the same.
As a color blind person myself, if I am negotiating a lower price upon buying a car, trying to get a loan to buy a house, or just speaking to a stranger at a park, I will treat the person I am dealing with the same regardless of their sex, race, or age. I would not treat a black male loan officer differently than a white female loan officer when getting a loan, I would not treat a stranger at a park any different regardless of his race or sex. This type of color blindness is the solution to the race problems we have in this country, thats why the bigots and race hustlers, hate it when people say they don’t see color; because they know that is the attitude that will destroy their agenda and put them out of business.

People aspire to be recognized by others, some would want to be celebrities and such, you're being naive to suggest that isn't at least something of an aspiration of people, even if it isn't necessarily as high a priority

Are you saying the average white person gets more attention than the average black person? If so, what do you base this on? I’m trying to understand exactly what you meant when you said white people are the focus of virtually anything.

You'd have to demonstrate that in evidence and not merely a generalization that is arguably anecdotal in nature. The police wouldn't bother with low crime neighborhoods in the first place versus a high crime neighborhood: to say there are no biases is hopelessly ignorant without showing that there is genuine equitable treatment

I am black, I’ve lived in high crime and low crime neighborhoods. Most of my friends are black who have lived in high crime and low crime neighborhoods. I don’t know how I can demonstrate to you my experiences and the experiences of most of my friends, but I will admit most of our experiences is based on living on the West Coast.

Your feeling as such doesn't make it so and being recognized in some sense purely because of your blackness is the opposite of being treated fairly, where your skin color is a mere observation and not coloring stereotypes or biased attitudes about you based on your skin color

What makes you so certain my skin color is more than just a mere observation?

That's assuming they will capitalize on that in the first place, not everyone is that opportunistic and conniving to basically move around as they please when the winds of opportunity will benefit them.

What’s preventing them?

The people that regard you differently because of your skin color, even if, as I pointed out, this isn't based in malice, but ignorance, spread through misinformation that generalizes black people based on the bad behavior of some or tries to make it out like black culture is the problem

People do this to white people and white culture as well.

The fact that we can point to policy changes by white people in power as partly responsible for black people being in a less than ideal situation, not only for financial mobility, but also education opportunities, etc,

Can you give an example of white people enacting such policy changes?

3 sources, is that sufficient?

US blacks 3 times more likely than whites to get COVID-19

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/too-many-black-americans-are-dying-from-covid-19/

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

You said there were institutional issues putting black people more at risk. The links you provided said blacks get it more often because they are more likely to live and work in close quarters. That sounds more like a financial issue, not an institutional one. Can you provide an example of an institutional issue causing black people to get this disease more often?

 

[muichimotsu]

No. First of all, it’s not white people who are trying to help black people but end up making things worse, it’s the Government. The Government is made up of all races. We don’t need help, just get out of the way and allow us to succeed like you do everybody else.

Compositional fallacy, the fact that there are parts that aren't white doesn't mean that the whole isn't favoring whites. And it'd be nice if it was that simple, but it isn't, because if you don't have oversight or such, people will exploit loopholes left and right to save a buck and treat others like crap regardless

Again; these concessions are not given by white people, and who are these groups you claim want to keep black people under control? You talking about the Democratic party?

Nice red herring, that was the Dixiecrats who bucked against integration, not Democrats today. And if the argument is that these aren't white majority, thus they aren't racist, ignores that the whole point is that this is a bias for white people, it doesn't have to be advanced by white people necessarily

I remember presenting a scenario a couple years ago to several dozen people of all races and genders if they could be born again and choose their race and gender, which would they choose and why.

100% of the men said they would be born male, the vast majority of women said they would be born female but a few said born male, 100% of the black people said they would be born black, the vast majority of white people said they would be born mixed race; white and something else (mostly black or asian) but a few said they would want to be born white. Brown people and asians were kinda all over the place; some wanted to remain the same, others said mixed race.

If being white is as awesome as you say it is, why is it nobody seems to want to be 100% white? Why is it whenever I see a person half black half white, they almost always claim to be black, even though technically speaking they are almost always majority white? If being black is as bad as you say it is, why does it seem everybody who seems to have the smallest amount of black in them wants to claim to be black?

Your hypothetical scenario doesn't say anything about whether whiteness is regarded more positively in an explicit manner, merely because no one wanted to be white. And gender is an entirely different topic to discuss versus race, I'm not going down that rabbit hole

It isn't a matter of pure biology or ancestry, it's also an overlap in terms of ethnicity and your identity. Some people are black because there's actually more substantive culture there in their view versus white culture that seems more often to just take from everyone else and contribute little of their own that isn't built on the backs of non whites (see Atlantic slave trade, etc). Some people can claim biracial identity, that's their prerogative, not yours to say whether it's appropriate or not based on what appears to be segregationist ideas or anti miscegenation

Black pride is not about victimhood, it's about affirming that identity in spite of people trying to gatekeep race to such an unrealistic extent, like you have to be "pure" to be really black. Isn't that effectively an unfair treatment based on someone's skin color with presumptions about how a race "ought" to be?

 

[muichimotsu]

No; color blindness is the solution! When someone says they are color blind, or that they don’t see color, they are not saying they can’t tell the difference between a black man or a white man, they are saying they treat the same.

The problem is that doesn't necessarily follow, much as we can try to emphasize that, socially, we are arguably conditioned by norms and mores in regards to how we treat people, we aren't immutable in our psychology, especially regarding cultural biases

As a color blind person myself, if I am negotiating a lower price upon buying a car, trying to get a loan to buy a house, or just speaking to a stranger at a park, I will treat the person I am dealing with the same regardless of their sex, race, or age. I would not treat a black male loan officer differently than a white female loan officer when getting a loan, I would not treat a stranger at a park any different regardless of his race or sex. This type of color blindness is the solution to the race problems we have in this country, thats why the bigots and race hustlers, hate it when people say they don’t see color; because they know that is the attitude that will destroy their agenda and put them out of business.

You as a black person doing so is not the issue, because a white person is not going to have the perspective that will necessarily let them not have any biases towards black people, even if they are more subconscious and culturally conditioned by a society that favors whites

And the allegations are not all encompassing, the claim is not that every interaction is automatically so, but that there is the distinct possibility to consider: I feel like you won't even take the concept of microaggressions seriously for the same nonsense that it's so bad, based on a superficial understanding of the term

You're assuming people stand to profit from this when that's not remotely what the goal is for people like myself: I don't benefit from this, I'm evening the playing field, so to speak, you're acting like there's nothing unfair going on because society has convinced you, especially a reactionary conservative subculture that acts like race is not relevant at all, when it is, even if it isn't on the same level for all contexts, it is still something that we subconsciously will recognize and potentially have biases culture has enculturated into us

Are you saying the average white person gets more attention than the average black person? If so, what do you base this on? I’m trying to understand exactly what you meant when you said white people are the focus of virtually anything.

Leads in film, TV, etc for one immediate point, not to mention positions of leadership in organizations for another

I am black, I’ve lived in high crime and low crime neighborhoods. Most of my friends are black who have lived in high crime and low crime neighborhoods. I don’t know how I can demonstrate to you my experiences and the experiences of most of my friends, but I will admit most of our experiences is based on living on the West Coast.

What makes you so certain my skin color is more than just a mere observation?

The problem is that it isn't like any area is going to be necessarily better overall, especially given that many people will be in different areas for certain aspects of life, like someone more rural going to urban areas for groceries or other such things versus their day to day interactions in that rural area.

You can't claim absolutely that there isn't any bias towards you because of your skin color merely because you perceive an interaction as positive. Or is it never possible that someone can be unintentionally insensitive, as per microaggressions?

What’s preventing them?

Factors such as lack of job mobility or other socioeconomic factors like not always being on top of the housing market like you seem to think everyone is, because they're focusing on various other priorities, like making sure their kids are doing well in their education, etc. Do you really think everyone's lives are as good as the examples you can pull out that are easy to observe as some pattern instead of the exception?

People do this to white people and white culture as well.

As I pointed out, there isn't white culture, there are ethnicities that happen to be white, it isn't the same thing. The culture of Scottish or Irish, etc are not unifying in the way black culture is, especially given that black people are not always aware of their heritage in the way a white person would have much easier access to it and it was never an issue to begin with, versus black people assimilated into society dominated by whites, without being "white" culture. Not all culture necessarily has a racial association, because ethnicity is more the cultural connection versus race, which is more often merely a group linked by physical traits that are considered socially significant (skin color just one example)

Can you give an example of white people enacting such policy changes?

Kennedy and Johnson's Great Society reforms in the 60s are the example I recall being brought up by a black man that I'm pretty sure was not just blowing smoke, he brought up specifics in regards to incentivizing the situation of single mothers, deadbeat fathers, the welfare state creating that problem (not that welfare is necessarily a bad thing if properly enacted)

You said there were institutional issues putting black people more at risk. The links you provided said blacks get it more often because they are more likely to live and work in close quarters. That sounds more like a financial issue, not an institutional one. Can you provide an example of an institutional issue causing black people to get this disease more often?

You assume that the financial issues are just bad decisions rather than people not giving blacks the same treatment purely because of their skin color: again, not because of malice, but because of ignorance and encouraging bad biases about black people that continue to this day. "Oh I thought he looked like this other criminal, I can't tell black people apart,", "I think you'd be better off going to another place for a loan,", etc.

It "sounding" like one thing does not mean you've invalidated the studies, it suggests you're trying to make excuses and victim blame because you don't think they're doing the "right" thing that you think black people ought to do, without considering that they may not be able to, because they weren't given an opportunity you were even if they TRIED to get it.

The institutional bias brought up in the studies points out that black people are demonstrably not getting the same treatment and there isn't going to just be one factor for why that is the case, and I'm pretty sure neither of us are experts in terms of medical policy and protocol, so yours and my speculations are provisional at best[/QUOTE]

 

[Ken-1122]

Compositional fallacy, the fact that there are parts that aren't white doesn't mean that the whole isn't favoring whites.

It doesn’t mean that it does favor whites either. And even if it were 100% white, that doesn’t mean those whites will enact unfair policies to their advantage.

Your hypothetical scenario doesn't say anything about whether whiteness is regarded more positively in an explicit manner, merely because no one wanted to be white.

My scenario pointed out that white people regard whiteness in a more negative manner than black and brown people regard their colors.

 

[Ken-1122]

The problem is that doesn't necessarily follow, much as we can try to emphasize that, socially, we are arguably conditioned by norms and mores in regards to how we treat people, we aren't immutable in our psychology, especially regarding cultural biases

We aren’t a slave to them either. Good people will recognize the difference between right and wrong, and will recognize cultural bias as wrong.

You as a black person doing so is not the issue, because a white person is not going to have the perspective that will necessarily let them not have any biases towards black people,

What evidence do you have that the majority of white people have bias against black people, and work as a group to hold us down?

Leads in film, TV, etc for one immediate point, not to mention positions of leadership in organizations for another

Care to answer my question? Again; are you suggesting the average white person gets more attention than the average black person?

You can't claim absolutely that there isn't any bias towards you because of your skin color merely because you perceive an interaction as positive.

No I can’t. And you cannot be sure that there is bias towards me due to my skin color. But if I were to go around assuming there was bias, I would be just hurting myself.

Factors such as lack of job mobility or other socioeconomic factors like not always being on top of the housing market like you seem to think everyone is, because they're focusing on various other priorities, like making sure their kids are doing well in their education, etc.

But they still have a lot of extra money in their pockets due to gentrification.

As I pointed out, there isn't white culture, there are ethnicities that happen to be white, it isn't the same thing. The culture of Scottish or Irish, etc are not unifying in the way black culture is, especially given that black people are not always aware of their heritage in the way a white person would have much easier access to it and it was never an issue to begin with, versus black people assimilated into society dominated by whites, without being "white" culture. Not all culture necessarily has a racial association, because ethnicity is more the cultural connection versus race, which is more often merely a group linked by physical traits that are considered socially significant (skin color just one example)

Most white people I know claim to be white, not german, spanish, english, or french. They only speak english because they don’t know the culture of german, spanish, english, or french.

Kennedy and Johnson's Great Society reforms in the 60s are the example I recall being brought up by a black man that I'm pretty sure was not just blowing smoke, he brought up specifics in regards to incentivizing the situation of single mothers, deadbeat fathers, the welfare state creating that problem (not that welfare is necessarily a bad thing if properly enacted)

I’m talking about policies of today. BTW the great society reforms was an attempt to do good. These are examples of trying to help us and things only getting worse. All they needed to do was get out of the way and allow us to succeed on our own.

The institutional bias brought up in the studies points out that black people are demonstrably not getting the same treatment and there isn't going to just be one factor for why that is the case,

No, the studies pointed out black people living in and working in closer quarters both increasing the likelihood of spreading the virus. It pointed to no evidence that hospitals give black people subpar treatment.

 

[coffee4u]

"So what does that look like? What counts as cultural appropriation? According to Marie Claire, the simple answer to that is you shouldn't dress up as a marginalized culture that isn't your own, and you most definitely shouldn't paint or color your skin to match someone else's."

What is looks like is someone, who takes and uses something from another culture (often a marginalized culture) because they think it's cool or pretty without taking into consideration the cultural and sometimes religious aspect of what they are taking and using it in a way it was never intended to be used. If it offends someone of the people group they took it from then they should stop. It's even worse if they make money off fake cultural items. This takes away from the groups genuine article sales.

 

[muichimotsu]

It doesn’t mean that it does favor whites either. And even if it were 100% white, that doesn’t mean those whites will enact unfair policies to their advantage.

I didn't say it was done knowingly, you're putting words in my mouth implicitly, as if this is done maliciously rather than in ignorance of societal biases, not a thing we're always conscious of, because it's just "how it always was,"

My scenario pointed out that white people regard whiteness in a more negative manner than black and brown people regard their colors.

How is that even a representative sample, first off? A few dozen, even 24 or so is hardly anything indicative of total culture and more importantly, you're forgetting that white is still the majority answer, even with the mixed race, because it's not mixed races that aren't white, it's white mixed with another race, which shows that bias still.

Mixed race is not negative to white when whiteness is seemingly just assumed as one of the races mixed in, because it's "cool" or such, which is tokenizing non-whiteness

 

[muichimotsu]

We aren’t a slave to them either. Good people will recognize the difference between right and wrong, and will recognize cultural bias as wrong.

The problem is you won't always recognize that when cultural biases are treated as the norm and aren't challenged or are dismissed by the majority in being challenged, like how people did with segregation

What evidence do you have that the majority of white people have bias against black people, and work as a group to hold us down?

More strawmanning, I didn't say that, because you're ascribing malice and intentionality to it when this is a cultural bias many white people aren't aware of because they're used to the privileged status they don't even necessarily recognize

Care to answer my question? Again; are you suggesting the average white person gets more attention than the average black person?

I gave you the answer, you apparently don't want to consider that even with BET or such, white people still get leads more often and are given that kind of favor, unconsciously. You're goalpost shifting to say this was about the average black person or white person versus society giving more regard to white people in popular culture

No I can’t. And you cannot be sure that there is bias towards me due to my skin color. But if I were to go around assuming there was bias, I would be just hurting myself.

I didn't say to be pessimistic, I said to be skeptical, there's a difference. REgarding people as automatically having malice is also not what I'm saying in that bias, because implicit biases are not intentional, they're usually ignorance based in acculturation and complacency with something because you aren't negatively affected in the way others of a different skin color are going to say they are.

And I didn't say I was absolutely certain, did I? I didn't make this about every situation, because there are probably situations where it may not matter, but they're the exception rather than the rule

But they still have a lot of extra money in their pockets due to gentrification.

Because they're gaming the system, that doesn't mean they're not biased against in terms of how culture in America will dismiss their concerns as "overreacting" or such

Most white people I know claim to be white, not german, spanish, english, or french. They only speak english because they don’t know the culture of german, spanish, english, or french.

And that'd be their race, not their ethnicity. Spanish is a Hispanic focused language, that's irrelevant to race, because you can be a certain race and still participate in another ethnicity's culture, like their language.

Most white people you know probably don't care about their ethnicity at all, not that I'm much better, I barely recall I can trace my family back to maybe French or British roots, which is vague anyway. But I think you don't know the difference or they don't understand that nuance between race and ethnicity

I’m talking about policies of today. BTW the great society reforms was an attempt to do good. These are examples of trying to help us and things only getting worse. All they needed to do was get out of the way and allow us to succeed on our own.

That's not the only other option, your argument boils down to a false dichotomy, the government can intervene in ways that aren't as extreme and help, it isn't just the government automatically is wrong regardless of what they do and they should just leave everything alone, that's anarchy.

No, the studies pointed out black people living in and working in closer quarters both increasing the likelihood of spreading the virus. It pointed to no evidence that hospitals give black people subpar treatment.

Oh boy, do I have news for you then

Long-Standing Racial And Income Disparities Seen Creeping Into COVID-19 Care

How medical bias against black people is shaping Covid-19 treatment and care

Questions of Bias in Covid-19 Treatment Add to the Mourning for Black Families


Fundamentally, this is a complex issue and to suggest that there is no evidence is not the same as being skeptical of the claims, which would be far more honest and in line with "atheist" thinking, in a sense. Instead, you want to make this about someone condescending to you or spreading some harmful rhetoric, when the problem appears to be twofold: having this complex that you have to do everything on your own that plays into part of the issue these studies are suggesting affects the black community disproportionately and the idea that white people cannot ever understand black experiences and thus should "stay out of it", as if any racial group can be absolutely objective or not require help from others in solving a problem that may have evidence to support its prevalence in culture.

 

[Aldebaran]

People are not stereotypes, behaviors are stereotyped and by a majority, even if it is reinforced by people with internalized racism, saying that black people have to fit one box or they're dishonoring or smearing the race somehow

The behaviors are stereotyped by those who are stereotyped. You wouldn't see them doing those behaviors or acting out the stereotypes if they didn't embrace them.

You're not comprehending at all, those expressions and style of dress are not indicative of black people as a whole, one could argue it's them trying to conform to a culture because they don't feel like they have any real cultural heritage they're aware of.

Exactly! And what a cultural norm they have created for themselves! Dressing like slobs and people with little intelligence. If that's the culture they want to create for themselves and that's the way they want people to see them, then they only have themselves to blame. Of course, they (and people like you) want to blame everyone but them.

And that wouldn't be a problem if black people were given more opportunity in school to learn about more than mostly white people. Or is that too inconvenient for you to acknowledge?

They go to the exact same schools and attend the exact same classes and have the exact same opportunity as the white people they're in class with. It's the "racial jungle" Joe Biden was so concerned about having his own kids go to.

 

[Aldebaran]

Society is partly responsible, to say otherwise is naive and idealistic: people don't exist in a vacuum, society encourages the stereotypes and terrible behavior that people continue on, especially if the majority ignorantly don't see the harm because they aren't affected by it themselves and then suggest that other people are too "sensitive" without any consideration that maybe their complaints have validity.

Nobody encourages black people to dress like slobs and have gold chains around their neck, or drive beat up cars with fancy rims and a high-end sound system blasting out gangsta rap. If that's the way they spend what money they have, then they get to live with that choice. Blaming it on the white man doesn't change anything.

 

[Strathos]

Nobody encourages black people to dress like slobs and have gold chains around their neck, or drive beat up cars with fancy rims and a high-end sound system blasting out gangsta rap. If that's the way they spend what money they have, then they get to live with that choice. Blaming it on the white man doesn't change anything.

What if someone said the same thing, except with white southern stereotypes like marrying their cousins, putting plastic nuts on their trucks, wearing dirty wifebeaters covered with sweat stains, and hoarding lots of guns and carrying them around everywhere?

Stereotypes aren't helpful, even if a lot of people do fit them.

 

[Aldebaran]

What if someone said the same thing, except with white southern stereotypes like marrying their cousins, putting plastic nuts on their trucks, wearing dirty wifebeaters covered with sweat stains, and hoarding lots of guns and carrying them around everywhere?

Stereotypes aren't helpful, even if a lot of people do fit them.

Those that they do fit are only inviting those stereotypes to survive, regardless of the color of the person who portrays them.

 

[muichimotsu]

The behaviors are stereotyped by those who are stereotyped. You wouldn't see them doing those behaviors or acting out the stereotypes if they didn't embrace them.

That's not how stereotypes work, they're socially conditioned, not something that is chosen willingly. And no, it's not about embracing them, you're adding some superfluous qualification to deflect any responsibility from you in addressing how stereotypes are not benign, like you appear to regard them as

Exactly! And what a cultural norm they have created for themselves! Dressing like slobs and people with little intelligence. If that's the culture they want to create for themselves and that's the way they want people to see them, then they only have themselves to blame. Of course, they (and people like you) want to blame everyone but them.

No, you're falsely asserting that black people did this to themselves, which is textbook victim blaming instead of assuming any kind of responsibility for enabling those stereotypes rather than correcting them

You also cannot assume that's how they want people to see them, but something they're grasping at because of how little of their own ethnic culture they genuinely know about. How many black people likely are even aware of their cultural roots, which are connected indelibly to slavery in many, though not all, cases?

Someone choosing something they feel they have no other choice but to choose is not the same as choosing something in spite of other demonstrable options. You speak from a position of privilege that assumes all black people have the same opportunities as white people when that's not remotely borne out by evidence

They go to the exact same schools and attend the exact same classes and have the exact same opportunity as the white people they're in class with. It's the "racial jungle" Joe Biden was so concerned about having his own kids go to.

No, that's not remotely the case given that there can be biases in how teachers treat black students, a problem that is only magnified by teachers trying to apply a one-size-fits-all idea at all to students rather than being able to utilize different tactics for different students with their learning capacities.

As for that quote, it's grossly taken out of context to paint Joe Biden as a racist. He was not opposed to integration in itself, he was concerned about rushing it through (something I feel like conservatives object to more often than they realize with things as well these days).

And the quote does not end at "racial jungle", he qualifies what he means, which was a climate of racial tension, especially in urban areas that could turn into a powder keg. He was being cautious, you seem to think that, from a cursory look at a quote that is intentionally skewed to present one interpretation, he was somehow racist without any investigation into the background or the full quote.

Ironic, when you would expect more thorough investigation with bible quotes that could just as easily be spun with selective text to suggest one thing when they don't.

 

[muichimotsu]

What if someone said the same thing, except with white southern stereotypes like marrying their cousins, putting plastic nuts on their trucks, wearing dirty wifebeaters covered with sweat stains, and hoarding lots of guns and carrying them around everywhere?

Stereotypes aren't helpful, even if a lot of people do fit them.

As I remember reading even briefly on the Wikipedia page with regards to stereotype for sociological study, it's something that helps us expedite interactions, but that can backfire when we don't consider the problems of microaggressions or societal privilege

 

[muichimotsu]

Those that they do fit are only inviting those stereotypes to survive, regardless of the color of the person who portrays them.

Bullcrap, that's not how stereotypes work, they aren't some nebulous independent thing that people are affected by like a parasite, they're culturally conditioned and spread by memesis, by people enabling and encouraging them rather than spreading the idea that they are broad generalizations and unhelpful to positive social interactions and better relations between different racial or ethnic groups.

 

[muichimotsu]

Nobody encourages black people to dress like slobs and have gold chains around their neck, or drive beat up cars with fancy rims and a high-end sound system blasting out gangsta rap. If that's the way they spend what money they have, then they get to live with that choice. Blaming it on the white man doesn't change anything.

Wow, it's astounding how much you buy into the very racism you seem to claim you aren't enabling when the idea of that black stereotype being the norm is not remotely the case. I knew black people growing up in the South and none of them remotely tried to do that. At best, there was acting out, but that wasn't done to try and fit into black stereotypes, but to assert their individuality in some way, especially if they were struggling with a difficult home situation.

This isn't blaming anything on white people exclusively, it's a societal bias: black people are arguably just as responsible for spreading the negative stereotypes because of some expectation that they'll be more accepted and have some sense of belonging versus alienation, which is likely felt especially with black people that feel like the only way to be accepted is to act more "white", a problem I imagine one of my black friends, who's also in a relationship with a white man, has struggled with all her life and plays it off like a joke that she's a reverse Oreo.