Universalists: How do you explain the "problem passages"?

[ViaCrucis]

I view belief in eternal punishment as a general tenant of the orthodox faith so you are correct when you say that I view universalists as heretics.

The problem with this is that the standards of general Christian orthodoxy--the ecumenical creeds--don't address this subject. This is akin to claiming that Penal Substitution Theory is the orthodox position, and anything else is heretical--this is simply an untenable position to take. Penal Substitution Theory has never been the orthodox position of the Christian faith, it is only one theory of the Atonement among a broad range of theories that have existed among faithful, orthodox, believing Christians.

Dogmatic Universalism has, generally, been regarded as an untenable position within orthodoxy; but there is nothing in the general orthodoxy of the Christian faith which disregards the possibility of universal restoration.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mlepfitjw]

I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

I believe that in the end people who are wicked will be outside of the gates of the heavenly Jerusalem. Believers will be in heavenly Jerusalem with God, and the Lord God Almighty.

Sometimes punishment can pertain to our choices in our life. There are many choices and paths and roads to take in the life and there are so many people, some who been restored by God and some still unsure and still searching for truth in life.

We can cause death to our spirit as believers by grieving it, when we end up doing something that starts to lay on us that we should try to reconcile.

There is a song that says there is no rest for the wicked and money doesn’t grow on trees though in time we all pass away and our deeds we have done are final with our last breathe.

Then we return to God in whatever spiritual body he gives to believers as all are resurrected though as I explained earlier those who did not want nothing to do with God are on the outside of the heavenly Jerusalem.

I don’t believe in universalism because their is only one way that is through Christ Jesus, and of course he can even reach those who don’t know that exact name.

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

Still this doesn’t ordinarily include Satan or any of the inhuman or angelic figures who regularly torment humanity.

That would make sense then. That would be the only explanation. It's still reaching though, but if satan, the beast, and false prophet get tormented "for the ages of the ages" and then eventually perish and get destroyed, that would make sense doctrinally.

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

are you a trinitarian ?
do you believe in the deity of Christ ?

Of course. What gave you the idea that I wasn't and that I didn't believe that? That's an essential foundational issue in my eyes. Though I don't call it "The Trinity" but rather "The Triune Godhead" as that phrase is more inline with scripture.

 

[chad kincham]

I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

It’s easy. They just ignore them, or for verses on Hell, they just claim the word for eternal punishment is an indefinite time period, and some of them claim Hell is just a very long timeout that the damned get out of after they are properly punished.

 

[chad kincham]

In 1 Cor 15:22 ff Paul says that just as all died in Adam all will be made alive. The comparison makes it clear that he means everyone, not just all nations. The passage ends with all being united with Christ and through him,

The context is, all who belong to Christ, not all men:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Of course. What gave you the idea that I wasn't and that I didn't believe that? That's an essential foundational issue in my eyes. Though I don't call it "The Trinity" but rather "The Triune Godhead" as that phrase is more inline with scripture.

I was just asking is all, thanks !

 

[RickReads]

Hey @Justified_By_Christ_Alone. So the problem passages are (1) the wicked will perish, (2) everlasting destruction and (3) the second death (from the verse in Revelation?) Though more types may be added if the conversation continues.

Trying to get the topic back on track, for problem passages listed (2,) Christian universalists have made a great deal of effort to interpret “everlasting destruction” to mean an age enduring punishment.

The argument is that a number of these New Testament words (e.g. endless, eternal, forever) are actually the Greek word Aionius/aionios, and Aionius doesn’t necessarily mean forever, but can mean enduring for an age or long period of time. There are arguments from the Hebrew and the Septuagint in support of this.

Francis Chan (as an argument from authority,) in his Erasing hell book, concedes that’s a viable alternative (or at least that there’s ambiguity regarding hells duration.)

The debate about hell’s duration is much more complex than I first assumed. While I lean heavily on the side that says it is everlasting, I am not ready to claim that with complete certainty.
​

A similar effort is made to show destruction in the phrase “everlasting destruction” isn’t in reference to an absolute state of nonexistent (if it were the case that wouldn’t satisfy the believer in eternal conscious torment either.)

Listening to Edward Fudge teach on the annihilation of the wicked may help answer many of the verses used in regards to problem verses (1,) since many of those verses in Fudges presentation were taken from the book of Psalms, which in most cases doesn’t appear to have been describing either eternal destruction or eternal torment, but rather the temporal ruin of wicked earthly rulers.

The ultimate fate of those wicked rulers (or any wicked person) wouldn’t be included in those Old Testament verses on temporal judgement, there’s normally a consensus that the OT has very little to say explicitly about a fiery place of eternal judgement.

I`ve always found the alternative views on hell interesting. I`ve attempted to explore it a few times but I`ve found universalists hostile to giving answers to the hard questions from the scriptures and they blew their chances to pursuede me.

It has pushed me into being on the fence with a lot of hell issues.

 

[RickReads]

 

[hedrick]

The context is, all who belong to Christ, not all men:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

15:22 says "In Christ all will be made alive." not "all who are in Christ will be made alive." "will be made alive" is a single verb in the future tense.

I checked four commentaries. All are clear in their translation that the meaning is all will be made alive. That's true even though none sees it as universalist. They all say that Paul's theology as a whole implies that Paul doesn't mean what he says. But suppose he actually does?

The one that's most explicit about the translation is the Anchor Bible: "On the other hand, there are two distinct possibilities in regard to life because of Christ: all people will be made alive because of Christ, or all people who belong to Christ will be made alive. The wording of the Greek supports the first alternative, but elsewhere Paul’s theology suggests the second (e.g. Rom 6:5–11)—the resurrection achieved by Christ will be available for those who have related to him in a special way, as opposed to its automatic, universal applicability."

The problem with citing Rom 6 is that it is clearly talking about now. Paul takes it as an axiom that when you die you're freed from sin. (Rom 6:7) What dying with Christ does is bring that reality to us now. I understand that most people will consider that too absurd to believe, but it's what he actually says. Without that axiom, his explanation of Christ's death in Rom 6 makes no sense. I understand that most people don't believe he really means this, but suppose he does? See also 2 Cor 5:14.

The traditional interpretation is "for in Adam all men died, but in Christ all Christians live." That certainly agrees with traditional doctrine, but I'm not so sure it's what he actually said. Probably the best hope for the traditional understanding is to assume that the whole thing only refers to us, so in Adam all of us died while in Christ all of us live. But I'm not convinced that you can really explain away the many "all"s in Paul that way.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

I must argue against universalism...which you may not wish to hear therefore I'll be brief.
God is merciful and just as He Himself says. To be just He deals with sin...offers forgiveness to the sinner who repents from his heart and withholds forgiveness and eternal life from the wicked who remain unrepentant.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10
...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
(This, granted is an O.T. citation, but it illustrates God's Justice a desire for holiness in the inmost parts and true repentance where we fall short. All would perish if not for God's mercy in sending Jesus as a means of salvation and eternal life and as we see not all follow Jesus or love Him nor even seek Him.)

 

[chad kincham]

I checked four commentaries. All are clear in their translation that the meaning is all will be made alive. That's true even though none sees it as universalist. They all say that Paul's theology as a whole implies that Paul doesn't mean what he says. But suppose he actually does?

I checked four commentaries. All are clear in their translation that the meaning is all will be made alive. That's true even though none sees it as universalist. They all say that Paul's theology as a whole implies that Paul doesn't mean what he says. But suppose he actually does?

The Bible says everyone is resurrected, both the damned and the righteous, and the damned die a second death, so universalists can’t use 1 Corinthians 15:22 to prove their doctrine, since their resurrection doesn’t last very long, then they die again.

John 5:28-29 (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[chad kincham]

The

 

[RickReads]

I must argue against universalism...which you may not wish to hear therefore I'll be brief.
God is merciful and just as He Himself says. To be just He deals with sin...offers forgiveness to the sinner who repents from his heart and withholds forgiveness and eternal life from the wicked who remain unrepentant.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10
...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
(This, granted is an O.T. citation, but it illustrates God's Justice a desire for holiness in the inmost parts and true repentance where we fall short. All would perish if not for God's mercy in sending Jesus as a means of salvation and eternal life and as we see not all follow Jesus or love Him nor even seek Him.)

It raises the sort of questions they are hostile to answer to. Yet, in my limited mind I am reluctant to believe God will be as severe as is usually believed.

 

[SANTOSO]

I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

Bear with me before I express things regarding your concerns !

I believe that you have heard this :
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in Him will never be put to shame.”
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, ”
and, “A STONE THAT CAUSES MEN TO STUMBLE AND A ROCK THAT MAKES THEM FALL.” They stumble because they DISOBEY THE MESSAGE–which is ALSO WHAT THEY WERE DESTINED FOR.-1 Peter 2:6-8

I understand those who believe in universalism are those believe that all humankind will eventually be saved.

This is not so, as we have heard what apostle Paul have spoken :

So too at the PRESENT TIME there is a REMNANT, chosen by grace. -Romans 11:5

Likewise, apostle James have said, too :
that the REMNANT OF MANKIND may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things -Acts 15:17

Not only the apostles, also the prophet Micah have spoken:
Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression FOR THE REMNANT OF HIS INHERITANCE? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. -Micah 7:18

You can see that not all humankind will be saved but only a remnant of mankind that will be saved whom Jesus Christ delivers from the wrath to come.

Concerning “the wicked that will perish”; those who are condemned are those whom we have heard:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but WHOEVER DOES NOT BELIEVE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. -John 3:18

Also, this is also that we have heard:
Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; whoever DOES NOT OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. -John 3:36

Therefore, those who profess that they believe in the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ but do not obey the Son, the wrath of God still remains on them unless they repent in true contrition and wholeheartedly.

It can be said that THOSE who believe in the Lord and DOES NOT OBEY the message that the Lord Jesus Christ has given to us and the message that the Lord has spoken through his holy apostles HAVE STUMBLED. This is what we have heard :

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, LET US FEAR lest any of you SHOULD SEEM TO HAVE FAILED TO REACH it. -Hebrews 4:1

For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. -Hebrews 4:2

As we have been admonished:
Let us therefore STRIVE TO ENTER THAT REST, so that no one may FALL by the same sort of disobedience. -Hebrews 4:11

Who partake in the portion of second death ?
This is what we have heard:
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

What we can understand about second death? There are those who have died have gone to Sheol ( the place of the dead ); those whom have sinned like the Lord mentions above are partakers in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur; they also partake the second death.

Don’t think this only affect those who are close to dying !

Consider THIS those who are still in the land of the living :
If a man DOES NOT REPENT, God will whet his sword; He has bent and readied His bow; -Psalms 7:12
He has prepared for him his deadly weapons, making His arrows fiery shafts. -Psalms 7:13

If THIS is spoken those who does not repent, it means the message is spoken to those who are in the land of the living; those who do not repent make themselves God their enemy!

Who happens to those who are in union with Christ?
This is what we have heard:

For since death came through a man,
the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn:
Christ, the firstfruits;
then, when Christ Jesus comes,
those who belong to Him ( Christ).
Then the end will come,
when Christ hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after Christ Jesus has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
For Christ Jesus must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.- 1 Corinthians 15:21-26

Therefore, consider what the Lord Himself have spoken:

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit He ( God the Father ) takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He ( God the Father) prunes, that it may bear more fruit. -John 15:2

Are we that branch in Christ that bears fruit through obedience in the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Or are we the branch in Christ that God the Father prunes and is thrown into the fire, and burned ?

what should wo do then ? Heed what apostle
Peter have spoken:

Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,

casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.

And after you HAVE SUFFERED A LITTLE WHILE, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.- 1 Peter 5:6-11

God bless you all who fear the Lord who keep His covenant and His testimonies !

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The Bible says everyone is resurrected, both the damned and the righteous, and the damned die a second death, so universalists can’t use 1 Corinthians 15:22 to prove their doctrine, since their resurrection doesn’t last very long, then they die again.

John 5:28-29 (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And the second death is hell...if you can accept it...
Revelation 20:7-9:
7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Cormack]

It has pushed me into being on the fence with a lot of hell issues.

Having been taught the traditional understanding of hell for a long time, then finding for myself that there are a lot of holes in that narrative, I’m happy with the label “hopeful universalist,“ God appears to be a “hopeful universalist” Himself (e.g. “Do I take pleasure in the death of the wicked?” “Not willing that any should perish.”)

 

[Cormack]

...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

How do you feel about the Christian apologists and writers who interpret that third and forth generations comment to be in reference to the 3 generations of men Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, 3 generations who could take on and sometimes learn to emulate their fathers sinful behaviours.

For example, Isaac uses the same kind of deception regarding his wife that his father used (e.g. “tell people you’re my sister so that it might go well with me.”) Jacob had his obvious issues too.

Point being they wouldn’t interpret that section of scripture as being a curse upon 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations (e.g. “punishing the children” for their fathers sin.)

Punishing the children of generation 3 because generation 1 hated Him seems strange in the extreme, but it’s believable that an alcoholic father produces alcoholic sons, so the generations proceeding him are punished.

There’s God’s punishment in there, but it’s more like a knock on effect, sin culture in the home that infects and brings ruin to the children in a similar way as the previous generation.

There’s lots of scripture that says God doesn’t punish any son for his fathers crimes (or vice versa.) There’s an entire chapter where God condemns that sort of thinking (Ezekiel 18,) in that section God denounces the phrase “The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.”

which you may not wish to hear therefore I'll be brief.

If my thoughts add fuel to the fire it’s okay to ignore them, it can just be seen as further context.

 

[Basil the Great]

I think that the weakest case for those who claim true Christianity insists on eternal punishment is that the Nicene Creed fails to address the subject, one way or the other.

 

[hedrick]

The Bible says everyone is resurrected, both the damned and the righteous, and the damned die a second death, so universalists can’t use 1 Corinthians 15:22 to prove their doctrine, since their resurrection doesn’t last very long, then they die again.

John 5:28-29 (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Please remember that I'm not sure I'm a universalist. However I do believe Paul shows signs of it. I have two comments on your quotes:

1) You have not provided a credible response to 1 Cor 15. Directing us to other NT authors isn't an exegesis of Paul.

2) There is no question that many parts of the NT talk about a judgement of our works. Jesus is probably the best witness here. But that judgement is not necessarily the last word. After all, most of us believe that more than just works are involved.

"the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Cor 3:13-15)

This passage probably refers specifically to Christians. But it still indicates that judgement of our works is not the only thing.

This comment clearly applies to John. Whether it applies to the Revelation depends upon what you think about hell being cast into the lake of fire. Personally, I think the lake of fire is either a part of the first heaven (21:1) or of the transition between the two. I don't think the new heavens and earth, where there are no tears, includes a pit with people being tortured. My understanding of the Rev is that it probably teaches the annihilation of the evil ones. Indeed one possible reading of 1 Cor 15 is that what happens in the pit is basically equivalent to 1 Cor 15:24: the destruction of all rulers and powers. After all, the pit is really created for Satan and his minions. It's certainly possible that some people who are aligned with evil are included in 1 Cor 15:24, as they seem to be in the Rev.