Temporal Salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

God never did.
God CREATED Adam and Eve.
We can assume they are saved.

No, we CAN'T assume the ludicrous. They were created with NO NEED for salvation. There was nothing to be saved from. Not until they rebelled against God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What you'll see if "all people", "everyone" "all men". NOTHING about Jew or Gentiie.

So you actually think God MEANT to save all/most Gentiles during the OT Kingdom?

I've proved it from Scripture. But one has to have the discernment to understand the very plain words of Scripture.

Titus 2:11, 1 John 2:2, 1 Tim 2:3-6. btw, John the baptizer described Jesus as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".

What do you suppose John meant by "world" in John 1;29?

Well... God FAILED almost 100% to do so.

I guess you just really don't understand much of God's plan then. Just because a person dies without salvation doesn't mean God failed. What an absurd and ludicrous idea!

God's plan makes man accountable for his decisions.

Let's revisit my question about your swimming. If you become disabled from keeping your head above water, and you know there is a lifeguard handy but don't call for help though able, and then drown, is it the lifeguard's fault? Or your own?

The point is that everyone who will end up in the lake of fire got there from their own decisions. They refused to believe. Acts 14:2 and 19:9. That's a choice.

Adam and Eve made a choice. God didn't force them or program them to rebel. They chose to rebel.

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The word "us" following "has chosen" is defined later in the chapter, in v.19, by "us who believe". So v.4 is teaching that God chooses or elects BELIEVERS (already saved people) to be holy and blameless. Election is to service, not salvation.

Listen, the problem is simple.
You want to pretend the Bible teaches that MAN DECIDES
who will be saved. But the Bible actually teaches that
GOD DECIDES who will be saved.

Please read my posts before you keep embarrassing yourself with these ridiculous claims that are totally false.

It is really as simple as that.
You WANT a synergistic gospel while the Bible
teaches a monergistic Gospel.

The Bible teaches that God's grace offers salvation to all people, everyone. Titus 2:11.

Since you disagree, please exegete Titus 2:11 and teach me what it really says.

You are entitled to follow whatever gospel you want.
But you are contradicting SCRIPTURE when you pretend
that (any) repentance comes before regeneration.

OK, let's test this out. Please provide any verse that teaches that regeneration occurs BEFORE repentance, belief, salvation.

 

[JLB777]

The Bible says differently. John 6:64 and 70-71

You are plainly denying the scriptures while at the same time, not quoting scripture. This is why most people reject your man made doctrine, which is just denial of the truth.


Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69



Once again, the scriptures have proven your man made, man conceived doctrine to be false.




JLB

 

[Marc Perry]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why didn't you answer my question then. I asked, when you close your own eyes, can you see or not? But maybe you just don't have the "eyes" to see (discern).


You do not argue because you do not see. My comment was related to your claim that "cannot see" is because the person "wasn't meant to see", which is ridiculous, as my comment proves.

So, go ahead and close your eyes and see if you can still see. That's the whole point.

The reason people "do not believe" is because they do NOT want to believe. They reject the information. It's all about one's choices.


No it doesn't mean that. That's just YOUR opinion about it.


Fallacy. Jesus NEVER EVER said that "some men are never meant to be converted or forgiven or saved. That is just YOUR opinion.


Broken.record.


Broken.record.


Quite the broken record.


Yes and no.

Yes, ALL the Jews and ALL the Gentiles were given the opportunity to be saved.

And, no, God did not fail anyone. The offer was given, the choices were made.
Titus 2:11 refutes your notions.


See above.


The actual problem here is that your opinions are very wrong.

The biblical gospel presents the plan of God, whereby salvation is offered to all, and those who believe it will be saved. All man decides is whether to believe what God says


How about that! We agree. Of course God decides who is saved. That's what I've been saying all along. 1 Cor 1:21 even says this. "God was pleased...to save those who believe". Black and white.


Apparently not for you. By your very faulty claim about what my gospel is.

Hey, let me ask you a question.

If you were swimming and got a severe leg and stomach cramp, so that you couldn't swim or keep your head above water, and there was a lifeguard in easy distance, does your calling out for help mean that you saved yourself from drowning?

You might want to look at the verses I quoted just above this post. The argument I was making was more to show that this topic isn't so black and white, so you really don't have to comment on that if you don't want to. I'm not even sure if I believe it myself. But the verses might help your argument.

 

[Marc Perry]

You are plainly denying the scriptures while at the same time, not quoting scripture. This is why most people reject your man made doctrine, which is just denial of the truth.


Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69



Once again, the scriptures have proven your man made, man conceived doctrine to be false.




JLB

I actually meant my previous post for you, but accidentally put freegrace. You might want to look at that, then the one above it. I'm new to this forum and can't figure out how to delete .

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The Bible says differently. John 6:64 and 70-71

You are plainly denying the scriptures while at the same time, not quoting scripture. This is why most people reject your man made doctrine, which is just denial of the truth.

Your continued denials are just amazing. John 6:64 with vs 70-71 clearly refute your opinions.

Jesus taught that those who believe (present indicative) have/possess eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47. So we KNOW WHEN believers possess eternal life. At the MOMENT of saving faith. Not at the end of their physical lives.

Then Jesus said those He gives eternal life, which are believers, shall never perish.

Yet, you claim believers can lose salvation and perish. Totally against what Jesus taught. So don't tell me what I am denying.

Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69

Peter couldn't see the hearts of ANY of the other disciples. He had to assume they were all on the same page. If this is your defense, you don't have one.

Once again, the scriptures have proven your man made, man conceived doctrine to be false.

lol. That's what your comments are.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said to 5th kingdom:
"Why didn't you answer my question then. I asked, when you close your own eyes, can you see or not? But maybe you just don't have the "eyes" to see (discern)."

You might want to look at the verses I quoted just above this post. The argument I was making was more to show that this topic isn't so black and white, so you really don't have to comment on that if you don't want to. I'm not even sure if I believe it myself. But the verses might help your argument.

I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.

His claim is that such people were "never meant" to hear/see. But he can't prove his claim, and my question proves his claim to be in error.

 

[Marc Perry]

I said to 5th kingdom:
"Why didn't you answer my question then. I asked, when you close your own eyes, can you see or not? But maybe you just don't have the "eyes" to see (discern)."

I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.

His claim is that such people were "never meant" to hear/see. But he can't prove his claim, and my question proves his claim to be in error.

Yeah ... sorry. That post was meant for someone else. I just couldn't figure out how to delete.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you believe God works with His people to transform them and deliver them from ungodly traits and habits, as they grow and mature in Christ?


I believe all twelve disciples believed and therefore followed Christ up until it was time for Him to be crucified.


Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ, and the other disciples.


Peter repented and returned to Christ, and was restored.


Judas did not. He hung himself.




JLB

So let’s say your Judas and you fully believe that Jesus is the Son of God and you’ve been following Him for three years stealing money from the treasury? As if He wouldn’t know about it? That doesn’t make sense to me. If Judas believed that Jesus was the Son of God then he would have to know that Jesus would know he was stealing from Him. It really is a mind boggling situation. I mean on the other hand it would seem very hard to believe that Judas witnessed so many miracles performed by Jesus and think that he did not believe. The evidence is almost contradictory of each other. I just can’t imagine knowing that Jesus is the Son of God and stealing from him at the same time that would be absolutely crazy. Honestly I don’t think I could give a conclusive answer either way.

 

[5thKingdom]

No, we CAN'T assume the ludicrous. They were created with NO NEED for salvation. There was nothing to be saved from. Not until they rebelled against God.

So, when you say "there was nothing to be saved from until they rebelled
you are ADMITTING that (after they rebelled) they also needed a Savior.
So we are in agreement, Adam and Eve needed to be saved
(because they were fallen).

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Yeah ... sorry. That post was meant for someone else. I just couldn't figure out how to delete.

I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.

His claim is that such people were "never meant" to hear/see. But he can't prove his claim, and my question proves his claim to be in error.

Correction:
It is not MY CLAIM that some were NEVER MEANT to believe...
that is what the Lord Jesus Christ said:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

The words "LEST AT ANY TIME" are the Words of Christ (not me)
Your argument is with Jesus (not with me).

Closing your eyes does not make the Words of Christ disappear.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.

His claim is that such people were "never meant" to hear/see. But he can't prove his claim, and my question proves his claim to be in error.

The passage has TWO PARTS:
The first part is about those who WERE MEANT to believe:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:



The SECOND PART is about those who were NEVER MEANT
to believe (notice the words LEST AT ANY TIME)

but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


This is not difficult if you DARE to trust the Words of Christ
However, if we are like the "disciples" who abandoned Jesus
in John 6:65-66 because they did not want salvation by election...
then this passage is VERY HARD TO HEAR


Jim
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
No, we CAN'T assume the ludicrous. They were created with NO NEED for salvation. There was nothing to be saved from. Not until they rebelled against God.

So, when you say "there was nothing to be saved from until they rebelled you are ADMITTING that (after they rebelled) they also needed a Savior.

They didn't need a Savior until they rebelled.

So we are in agreement, Adam and Eve needed to be saved
(because they were fallen).

Jim

Sure. After the Fall.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Correction:
It is not MY CLAIM that some were NEVER MEANT to believe...
that is what the Lord Jesus Christ said:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

The words "LEST AT ANY TIME" are the Words of Christ (not me)
Your argument is with Jesus (not with me).

Again, your opinion is flat out wrong. The phrase in black does NOT mean "never meant to believe".

Closing your eyes does not make the Words of Christ disappear.

Jim

When you voluntarily close your eyes, you CAN'T see. But when you open them back up, then you DO see. Real simple. It's all about choices.

 

[5thKingdom]

You might want to look at the verses I quoted just above this post. The argument I was making was more to show that this topic isn't so black and white, so you really don't have to comment on that if you don't want to. I'm not even sure if I believe it myself. But the verses might help your argument.

I am sorry... I must have missed your post.
What verses NEGATE what Jesus said in Mark 4:11-12
about some men are MEANT to understand and be converted
and some men are NEVER MEANT to have their sins forgiven?

jim


BTW... notice John 10:26 says WHY some men cannot believe?

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.


The Gospel of Christ is a HARD GOSPEL for those who want
to believe that ALL MEN are the "sheep" of Christ.


Jim

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.

His claim is that such people were "never meant" to hear/see. But he can't prove his claim, and my question proves his claim to be in error.

The passage has TWO PARTS:
The first part is about those who WERE MEANT to believe:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:

And ONLY THEN did Jesus explain the parable that His disciples didn't understand.

The SECOND PART is about those who were NEVER MEANT
to believe (notice the words LEST AT ANY TIME)

I have noticed those words, and they do NOT mean what you keep opining.

but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Since you don't want to see and understand that every person faces the choice of whether to believe the gospel or not, further explanation seems futile.

This is not difficult if you DARE to trust the Words of Christ

I absolutely do trust the Words of Christ. It's YOUR opinions that I DARE NOT to trust.

However, if we are like the "disciples" who abandoned Jesus
in John 6:65-66 because they did not want salvation by election...
then this passage is VERY HARD TO HEAR

Uh, where do you get the idea that John 6 taught "salvation by election"?

 

[5thKingdom]

Sure. After the Fall.

Which was the CONTEXT of my statement.
Glad to see we agree on that.

Jim

 

[FreeGrace2]

BTW... notice John 10:26 says WHY some men cannot believe?

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.

The verse does NOT say they "cannot" believe, as in ability. It simply says they DON'T believe. Why? Because they don't want to. Real simple.

The Gospel of Christ is a HARD GOSPEL for those who want
to believe that ALL MEN are the "sheep" of Christ.

Those who believe that "all men are the sheep of Christ" apparently cannot read plain words then.

 

[5thKingdom]

Uh, where do you get the idea that John 6 taught "salvation by election"?

I get that "idea" from the Words of Christ.
I actually BELIEVE that Christ did not lie when He said:


Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

The verse does NOT say they "cannot" believe, as in ability. It simply says they DON'T believe. Why? Because they don't want to. Real simple.

I am sorry... we must be reading different Bibles because
my Bible says they cannot believe because they ARE NOT
THE SHEEP of Jesus.

Does your Bible not say that also?
Or do you intentionally ignore that part?

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.

And HERE is the other side of that coin...
Does your Bible include this?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall
never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.



Jim